Thyroid

[Guest Rogersmom]

I am moving this from "cute and funny"

 

Roger got a 0.5 on his thyroid test. It was taken as his weight increased from 79 pounds in October 2010 to 84 pounds in February 2011. I really thought the weight gain could be attributed to the frozen back yard and Roger not being able to run around. Also, the fact that he was now the only dog in the house and could eat his all of his food without another stealing some of it.

 

So, I got Soloxine 0.8mg for him today. He will take it twice a day a half hour before eating. I would like to know what others think of this.

 

When I had his teeth cleaned at National Greyhound Adoption Program's clinic, the did a blood panel on him and did not think he should get medication for his thyroid. My local vet disagrees.

 

What do all of you experienced greyt people think. You know I worry about Roger. He has to live forever and be healthy and strong.

 

Best wishes,

 

Liz and Roger

[krissy]

Your vet does know that greyhounds have low thyroid hormone levels, right? Did your vet run a TSH in addition to the fT4? That's very important in greyhounds since the fT4 is normally lower.

 

ETA: Weight gain is of course a sign of hypothyroidism, however, lots of other things cause weight gain.

Edited November 11, 2011 by krissy

[tbhounds]

Complete thyroid panel needs to be run especially iin the absence of other clinical symptoms (weight gain could be caused by so many other factors like more calories in then out).

[kudzu]

Make sure the full panel is run. That it crucial. Just a T4 or even fT4 is not enough to diagnose hypothyroid. Also, if it has not been done yet you need to do it now. Don't start the Soloxine before the full thyroid panel is run. Supplementation effects the tests making interpretation quite difficult.

[Newgreymom]

I would definetly have a full thyroid panel ran and have it sent to Michigan State. I wouldn't medicate until the full panel comes back. Greyhounds have "different" levels for thyroid tests.

[Guest greyers]

Ditto what others said, but does anyone else here think .08 is too high of a soloxine level assuming the thyroid really was a .05?

 

Rego had a full blood panel last week and his thyroid was so low as to be unreadable in the tests. My vets said to start him on the same level Prudence is on for 3 weeks till a retest. And her soloxine level is less than .08!

[duncan41]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but sometimes doing the tests doesn't help, either. I thought for sure that we would get a clear picture as the input above would suggest. Had the full panel run on Suze thru Idexx:

 

Thyroid Panel #4 - Free T4: FreeT4 (ng/dL) is 0.7 - ref. Range 0.6 - 3.7.

 

Free T4 (pmoll/L) is 9.0, ref Range 7.7 - 47.6.

 

Thyroid Panel #4 - T4: T4 is .7, Ref Range 1.5 = 4.0 ug/dl.

 

Thyroid Panel #4 - cTSH: TSH is .68 - Ref. Range 0.05 - 0.42

 

This dog (7-1/2 years old) is incontinent, high cholesterol, high blood pressure (230 - 260 a week ago), is hot all the time, listless, depressed and has symptoms of Von Willebrand disease - still waiting on those results. All other Super Chem 27 and CBC results are within normal range. PCR was done for Lyme, Babesia, Anaplasma SPP, Ehrlichia, RMSF, Hepatozoon SPP, Leishmania, Neorickettsia and Bartonella - all negative.

If the Von Willebrand comes back negative, a cystocentisis will be done for a UA, UPC and a culture.

 

Why would the TSH be so high? Would you treat a dog with these symptoms?

[Chicocat]

.5 is the low end of normal for a greyhound.

 

A dosage of .8 twice a day is HUGE, even with the dosage based on weight.

 

I would double check with your vet to make sure his diagnosis is based on the range for greyhounds.

[Guest greyers]

.5 is the low end of normal for a greyhound.

 

A dosage of .8 twice a day is HUGE, even with the dosage based on weight.

 

I would double check with your vet to make sure his diagnosis is based on the range for greyhounds.

That is what I thought!

[Batmom]

T4 (and even fT4) can be 0 and yet still normal in a greyhound.

 

duncan41, see here http://www.dcpah.msu.edu/Sections/Endocrinology/Thyroid_Canine.php#11 for a discussion of when you might see elevated TSH but other values in normal range. Has a basic, free-catch urinalysis been done? Is the high blood pressure being treated?

[Guest Rogersmom]

Wow! I can not afford the full thyroid panel. I heard it cost $350.00 I had a full blood panel done for $90 but it was more than just thyroid.

The drug company recommended 0.1 mg per 10 pounds of weight. My vet agreed on the 0.8 for him. Got to run to work. Thanks all for the input so far.

[Batmom]

MSU's premium thyroid profile with endocrinologist's interpretation is currently listed at $67.

[kudzu]

Who told you $350? I've never paid more than $100 including blood draw/vet tech fee. Honestly, if his only symptom is weight gain & you have not done the full panel then really, truly, honestly, I gotta make you believe me that, you should not start supplementation. And I am someone who actually does have her dog on supplementation so it isn't like I believe Greyhounds are never hypothyroid. Seriously, you cannot diagnose hypothyroid for any dog based on T4 alone & that is even more true of Greys.

[duncan41]

T4 (and even fT4) can be 0 and yet still normal in a greyhound.

 

duncan41, see here http://www.dcpah.msu...d_Canine.php#11 for a discussion of when you might see elevated TSH but other values in normal range. Has a basic, free-catch urinalysis been done? Is the high blood pressure being treated?

 

Read the article (thank you!) but there has been no illness, no thyroid medication just this long, slow slide downward. The T4 values I quoted were the second set in a month, both T4 results the same - TSH was not done the first time (gggrrr!).

 

Free catch urinalysis was done a month ago; there was a trace of blood and protein. That's what started this journey; that and the horrible bruising after a simple xray.

 

HBP is being treated with Benazepril.

 

While I would prefer not to treat her with any medication unless absolutely necessary, if the cystocentisis is negative, my mind wants to revisit the thyroid issue. Would it be reasonable to think that her low-end-of-normal Free T4 results are too low for her?

Edited November 11, 2011 by duncan41

[Guest Swifthounds]

Wow! I can not afford the full thyroid panel. I heard it cost $350.00 I had a full blood panel done for $90 but it was more than just thyroid.

The drug company recommended 0.1 mg per 10 pounds of weight. My vet agreed on the 0.8 for him. Got to run to work. Thanks all for the input so far.

 

Full panel through Dr Dodds at Hemopet is around $60. MSU is less, I think. I would NOT ever medicate a dog without the full panel and either way, that dose is WAY high for a greyhound. Another huge red flag would be thatNGAP, known for needlessly placing huge numbers of greyhounds on thyroid meds, didn't push medication. No matter what your vet tells you, medicating when there isn't a real thyroid condition can cause major and lasting damage.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Swifthounds

[Guest greyers]

Yep, full blood panel including all the thyroid tests plus vet visit just last week for around $150 or so. $350 must be an inaccurate quote. A misunderstanding or something? And if it is not, then run, don't walk from that vet.

[PrairieProf]

Just chiming in to agree with the point about not treating unless you get the panel. Just to underscore the point, Beth had 0.4 T4 a while back, we did the thyroid panel and she was perfectly fine. Dogs can gain weight easily. The logical thing would be to cut back his food and increase his exercise if possible see if he loses! Beth's weight jumped from 58-59 to 63 in a short time once when I wasn't paying attention -- but within a month of being careful I'd gotten her back down again.

 

February 2011 is ages ago, too ... why would you base treatment now on a weight and blood results from then?

[seeh2o]

.8 twice a day is waaaay too much. Claire weighs 65 and gets .6 per day total, Carl weighs 75 and gets .7 per day total (each get 1/2 tab in am & pm). According to Dr. Dodds it is .10 for each 10 lbs.

 

I think I'd be looking for a new vet.

[Guest budsmom]

JMHO, but I'd be very leary of a vet that medicates without a full thyroid panel. I think it's pretty much standard practive in greyhounds that even if they test low on a full thyroid panel, you shouldn't really medicate unless there are clinical symptoms.

[duncan41]

The following information appears on Dr. Suzanne Stack's website: greythealth.com. It is the last paragraph on the subject of Hypothyroidism. IMHO: I am all for being very conservative regarding dosing of all medications. Better to start at the bottom than chance a reaction if you have a med-sensitive dog.

 

 

 

"The last mud to tread through with regard to hypothyroidism is dosing. Just about all veterinarians agree that brand name Soloxine is superior -- accept no substitutes. Dr. Jim Gannon, author of Care of the Racing Greyhound and probably the most knowledgeable greyhound vet on the planet recommends .1 to .2 mg per greyhound twice daily. The standard dog dose is .1 mg/lO# twice daily. The above-mentioned Veterinary Medicine article goes with this dose. The new 2000 Ettinger's Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine ("the bible") says that once clinical signs resolve, you can often drop to once daily. I split the difference and give greyhounds half the standard dog dose (.1 mg/20#) twice daily. What can't be a good idea is pushing huge Soloxine doses in an effort to push these greyhound T4s up into the 3.0s and 4.0s. Greyhound T4s aren't normally that high, and I worry about the unhealthy effects of hyperthyroidism (heart, kidney, GI Tract) when this is done."

Edited November 11, 2011 by duncan41

[seeh2o]

Yes, what Stack says is basically the same as Dodds in terms of dosage. I was posting from cell phone and didn't have the paperwork out with the exact language when I posted before. Here is what Dodds comments are on Claire's labwork: "IF clinical signs support thyroid dysfunction, a 6 - 8 week trial of Soloxine or equivalent product at 0.1mg per 20 lbs twice daily (e.g. 0.3 mg BID), followed by retesting thyroid profile 4 - 6 hours post-pill to monitor response levels."

Underlining and caps are per Dodds.

[Guest Rogersmom]

Yes, what Stack says is basically the same as Dodds in terms of dosage. I was posting from cell phone and didn't have the paperwork out with the exact language when I posted before. Here is what Dodds comments are on Claire's labwork: "IF clinical signs support thyroid dysfunction, a 6 - 8 week trial of Soloxine or equivalent product at 0.1mg per 20 lbs twice daily (e.g. 0.3 mg BID), followed by retesting thyroid profile 4 - 6 hours post-pill to monitor response levels."

Underlining and caps are per Dodds.

 

Well the vet that gave me the medicine agreed with what was on the manufactorers website, 0.1 mg per 10 pounds of body weight. We will re test at 6-8 weeks and then lower the dosage. I am now concerned. Several people told me to get him the medicine and some have said not to. I hope I have not harmed my puppy boy.

[seeh2o]

I may have misunderstood your earlier post, I read it that your boy was getting .8mg twice a day, for a total of .16mg per day.

 

ETA A friend of mine has a small female greyhound who is on Soloxine, she weighs less than Claire and gets twice as much Soloxine as Claire. When she learned what Claire's dosage is and that her thyroid values are perfect on the lesser dosage, she was really alarmed.

Edited November 11, 2011 by seeh2o

[Guest Rogersmom]

I may have misunderstood your earlier post, I read it that your boy was getting .8mg twice a day, for a total of .16mg per day.

He is getting 0.8 mg twice a day.

[tbhounds]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but sometimes doing the tests doesn't help, either. I thought for sure that we would get a clear picture as the input above would suggest. Had the full panel run on Suze thru Idexx:

 

Thyroid Panel #4 - Free T4: FreeT4 (ng/dL) is 0.7 - ref. Range 0.6 - 3.7.

 

Free T4 (pmoll/L) is 9.0, ref Range 7.7 - 47.6.

 

Thyroid Panel #4 - T4: T4 is .7, Ref Range 1.5 = 4.0 ug/dl.

 

Thyroid Panel #4 - cTSH: TSH is .68 - Ref. Range 0.05 - 0.42

 

This dog (7-1/2 years old) is incontinent, high cholesterol, high blood pressure (230 - 260 a week ago), is hot all the time, listless, depressed and has symptoms of Von Willebrand disease - still waiting on those results. All other Super Chem 27 and CBC results are within normal range. PCR was done for Lyme, Babesia, Anaplasma SPP, Ehrlichia, RMSF, Hepatozoon SPP, Leishmania, Neorickettsia and Bartonella - all negative.

If the Von Willebrand comes back negative, a cystocentisis will be done for a UA, UPC and a culture.

 

Why would the TSH be so high? Would you treat a dog with these symptoms?

A high ctsh and a low T4 usually indicates hypothyroidism.

I think I would run a compllete panel through MSU as conformation. Make sure you check the box for the interpretation . VonWillys is rather rare in gh's-- maybe MSU can help you in that department too?

 

I may have misunderstood your earlier post, I read it that your boy was getting .8mg twice a day, for a total of .16mg per day.

He is getting 0.8 mg twice a day.

Stop the meds-- wait 6 weeks and run the full panel through MSU. You can really do harm if you treat with that high dose without true cause to.