New Owner

[Guest baronsdad]

Hi Everyone

After years of wanting to adopt a greyhound we finally found Baron. He is neither aggressive nor fearful with our two chihuahuas and overall is a very gentle 2 year old male. We have experienced a few concerns that I have spoken to the rescue agency about, but would also appreciate your feedback. On occasion, and very unpredictably, Baron will become very defensive, lay down his ears and bark/growl and snap. He's never bitten, but I'm afraid he could if overly provoked. The agency says its primarily due to his new surroundings and they never saw any of this behavior during his initial screening. They stressed a very rigid routine similar to what he got while on track to avoid this "overstimulation". My wife any I removed him from his training classes as the behavior did seem to increase in the day following this. As an example, we be bring him to work with our other two dogs daily. He is separated with me in my office, but as its a retail business he sees a lot of different people in and out. At first many would walk over to the gated door opening of my office and want to talk to him and pat him. At first, no problems, but lately more and more growling (worse of course if they try to lean over him). We try to make it clear to people that we will bring him out into the open area where its less confined to let them see him (more for his benefit we feel to allow him to socialize), but even them he has occasionally gone from overly affectionate to fearful/defensive. Its the unpredictability that we don't know how to deal with. Lately, he's been doing this a lot more with me as well. He'll come to my side wanting me to pat him, then out of the blue turn around and look at me as though I'm a complete stranger and start in with the same behaviors. We tried responding with a forceful "NO" at first, but this seems to escalate the behavior. We now turn our backs to him and ignore him until he settles down.

 

I grew up with large German Shephards and Rottweilers on our farm, so the size isn't intimidating to me (he's 65lbs), but I admit it does rattle me when he does this and I think he senses this. We have had him just over a month so far and twice I've actually called the agency to ask what to do as we were considering giving him up. I can't have my wife, self and two other dogs at risk. I certainly do not want to do this, and love him dearly, but I really need to know what changes I need to make so that he adjusts better. For what its worth, he loves to ride in my truck and when distressed wants to go immediately to it and be left alone. I hate the thought of letting him sit in the truck all day, but I'm completely new to this.

[Time4ANap]

Sounds to me like he needs his own space that he can retreat to when he needs to. Is it possible to put a crate in your office and leave the door open so he can come and go as needed? Then if he is in his crate, he needs to be left alone, and not disturbed.

 

We had a period of time in our house where Rocket would do something similar, and even bit people . I don't feel like the biting was his fault, as each tme it happened, he was being leaned over or was somewhat startled by being petted. Our boy sleeps with his eyes open, so it's not always easy to tell if he is awake. We instituted a "no petting unless standing" rule. We let him come to us for pets. We don't approach him and start petting. Some greyhounds do not like to be leaned over, and perceive it as a threat.

 

Since he is so new, it is most likely going to take some time for him to settle in and adjust to the routine. He is used to a routine that includes being in his safe place (crate) at regular intervals, and has been thrust into a routine that inlcudes much more stimulation and activity(retail store with lots of people) than he's used to.

 

Others who have experienced similar issues will chime in here with additional ideas. He sounds like a great pup who just needs some time to settle in. You will be surprised at the differences you will see over the coming months as he gets comfortable with a new routine and new surroundings and situations.

 

Goodluck, andcongratualtions on your new pup!

[GeorgeofNE]

Greyhounds, in general, like to have their personal space. Being with you all day, every day, is perhaps too much too soon? Remember, he's also not used to being touched when he's asleep, and some greyhounds (including mine) sleep with their eyes partially open. I've had George nearly take my arm off more than once.

 

He's telling you something--you need to be a bit of a detective to figure out what it is. Does he not like the workplace? Are you in his face too much? Is he not getting enough exercise? Is he not being allowed to sleep as much as he wants?

[Guest greyers]

Hi barons dad,

Can you tell us a little more about Baron? Like how long he has been in your home? Also did he have a foster home before coming to you?

 

I ditto what others have said thus far about needing space. My last male I got started to become snappish with people and it was a combination of things but those things made him "unadoptable". First off he had arthritis and bone spurs and had been crated and was not getting enough exercise nor anything to deal with his joint pain. Second, he was freaked of anything coming near his hindquarters because of a tail injury two years prior and a then recent tail amputation. And third, he had a huge issue with anyone standing over him.

 

He snapped and snarled at most people in my family including my husband and our grown kids, but he would always respond to me snapping my fingers loudly and saying "no", in a firm low voice. Once we got his pain under control, we started by not letting people pet him. We would tell people to give him a minute and if HE approached them then they may pet him but no where near his tail area. Within a short period of time he learned to trust us and if he approached them it was fine. Thence would communicate his displeasure by turning his head away from that person which we learned was his cue he didn't want to be pet anymore. It took some patience and a LOT of trust building, but we got through it and he was the BEST dog and never snarled again after those first couple of months and he grew to love to be pet.

[MaryJane]

Hmmm .. this started after a dog training class... Did he get close to other dogs? Did any of the other dogs act jumpy near him?

 

My first impression is too much, too soon. He's just gotten into the house with all new routines/procedures, gets exposed to dog training, is at an office all day with people bending over him -- he needs a timeout.

 

Take him to training classes but keep him away from other dogs UNTIL he trusts you to keep him safe. This usually takes a few months but, can happen earlier. You might just want to start with walking him on a daily basis for at least 30 minutes with a tight lead which means keeping him right on your side and take one or two breaks and let him do his "smelling the roses". this does wonders for "creating a pack" and having him trust you. Keep distractions to a minimum on the walk.

 

As to work, can you leave him at home for awhile rather than taking him in? Or just take him in every few days or for 1/2 day.

[Guest Amber]

Hm, I'm wondering if he has some pain somewhere (in his back maybe?). When you say you are petting him and then he looks at you like you're a stranger and flattens his ears, can you remember if it is when you're touching one particular spot?

 

Agree with the others that perhaps all the socialising is just too much too soon, but it would be well worth getting him checked out by a dog chiropracter (maybe with a muzzle on just in case they find a 'hot spot' that really hurts). Over here in UK we have McTimoney Chiropracters, many of whom will work on dogs as well as people and just one visit with my two did wonders for them, especially my girl Petra who used to have a lot of problems getting into the car - the chiro identified hidden back problems. After just one session (which didn't hurt her at all) she could jump in the car!

 

Many greyhounds will have graded off or been retired due to minor injuries that could leave lasting niggles and pain...it would be good to rule that out as if he does have some pain issues, that can really cause grumpiness.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Amber

[JJNg]

I agree with all the previous replies and am also wondering how long you've had your grey. How long did you give him to settle into your home and learn to trust you before exposing him to training classes and lots of strangers at your workplace? I find that most dogs need at least a week or two, some a lot longer, to start to feel comfortable with a new routine and environment, so I try to give them a chance to adjust before adding in more stimuli. Too much too fast can become quite stressful if it's more than they are ready to handle.

 

Is there a way you can take him to work with you but have him in an area where customers will not be able to see him or interact with him?

 

Also, I would recommend trying to learn his body language better. Most dogs show a lot of subtle signs of discomfort/stress well before they get to the point of growling and snapping. Many of these signals are not naturally recognized by people, and can be easy to miss. It's possible that during the times when you think he's doing ok and not having problems, he's really not as happy and relaxed as you think. If you can recognize this more subtle body language, his behavior may not seem as unpredictable. Here's a good article about canine calming signals, body language, and stress.

[Guest jbbuzby]

I'd suggest a more rigid leadership program with him, in conjunctions with positive reinforcement (I find they work best as a pair). The short text "How to Be Pack Leader" by Patricia McConnell is sweet and to the point; if you follow it to a T, I suspect a fair amount of these behaviors will go away. It sounds like he is insecure, and if you can establish that it is you who is in charge and that he needn't worry about controlling his environment (that's the alpha's job), than he should settle down some. I'd also recommend walking A LOT, like 20-30 minutes twice a day to speed the bonding process between him and his new family...the more you can take with you, the better.

 

As for the positive reinforcement, have some super AWESOME treats with you at work, and instruct visitors to come by with them in hand. Skip breakfast, do a long walk first, and have them visit the doorway standing sideways (not facing him) at the gate not making eye contact. Have them toss him a treat, and then keep going so he learns that people coming by gets him good things. However, don't let him bark or growl first, since that's not the behavior you want to reward! Another book to look into would be "The Loved Dog" by Tamar Geller.

 

Hang in there!

[Guest sweetpea]

If I read your post, you've had him just over a month?

 

I'm no expert, but it seems like an awful lot of over-stimulation

for a dog that is new to ALL of this.

 

It's a bit long, but this Kathleen Gilley article might give you some perspective.

 

No Fear No Pain by Kathleen Gilley

 

Of all breeds of dogs, the ex-racing Greyhound has never had to be responsible for anything in his life.

His whole existence has been a dog-centered one. This breed has never been asked to do anything for itself,

make any decisions or answer any questions. It has been waited on, paw and tail. The only prohibition in a racing

Greyhound's life is not to get into a fight----------------or eat certain stuff in the turn out pen.

 

Let us review a little. From weaning until you go away for schooling, at probably a year and a half,

you eat, grow and run around with your siblings. When you go away to begin your racing career, you

get your own "apartment," in a large housing development. No one is allowed in your bed but you,

and when you are in there, no one can touch you, without plenty of warning.

 

Someone hears a vehicle drive up, or the kennel door being unlocked. The light switches are flipped on.

The loud mouths in residence, and there always are some, begin to bark or howl. You are wide awake by

the time the human opens your door to turn you out. A Greyhound has never been touched while he was asleep.

 

You eat when you are fed, usually on a strict schedule. No one asks if you are hungry or what you want to

eat. You are never told not to eat any food within your reach. No one ever touches your bowl while you are

eating. You are not to be disturbed because it is important you clean your plate.

 

You are not asked if you have to "go outside." You are placed in a turn out pen and it isn't long before

you get the idea of what you are supposed to do while you are out there. Unless you really get out of hand,

you may chase, rough house and put your feet on everyone and every thing else. The only humans you know are

the "waiters" who feed you, and the "restroom attendants" who turn you out to go to the bathroom.

Respect people? Surely you jest.

 

No one comes into or goes out of your kennel without your knowledge. You are all seeing; all knowing.

There are no surprises, day in and day out. The only thing it is ever hoped you will do is win, place

or show, and that you don't have much control over. It is in your blood, it is in your heart, it is in

your fate-- or it is not.

 

And when it is not, then suddenly you are expected to be a civilized person in a fur coat. But people

don't realize you may not even speak English. Some of you don't even know your names, because you didn't

need to. You were not asked or told to do anything as an individual; you were always part of the

"condo association?; the sorority or fraternity and everyone did everything together, as a group or pack.

The only time you did anything as an individual is when you schooled or raced, and even then, You Were Not Alone.

 

Suddenly, he is expected to behave himself in places he's never been taught how to act. He is expected

to take responsibility for saying when he needs to go outside, to come when he is called, not to get on

some or all of the furniture, and to not eat food off counters and tables. He is dropped in a world

that is not his, and totally without warning, at that.

 

Almost everything he does is wrong. Suddenly he is a minority. Now he is just a pet. He is unemployed,

in a place where people expect him to know the rules and the schedule, even when there aren't any.

(How many times have you heard someone say, "He won't tell me when he has to go out." What kind of

schedule is that?) Have you heard the joke about the dog who says, "My name is No-No Bad Dog.

What's yours?" To me that is not even funny. All the protective barriers are gone. There is no more

warning before something happens. There is no more strength in numbers. He wakes up with a monster

human face two inches from his. (With some people's breath, this could scare Godzilla.) Why should

he not, believe that this "someone," who has crept up on him, isn't going to eat him for lunch?

(I really do have to ask you ladies to consider how you would react if someone you barely knew crawled

up on you while you were asleep?) No, I will not ask for any male input.

 

Now he is left alone, for the first time in his life, in a strange place, with no idea of what will

happen or how long it will be before someone comes to him again. If he is not crated, he may go

though walls, windows or over fences, desperately seeking something familiar, something with which to

reconnect his life. If he does get free, he will find the familiarity, within himself: the adrenaline high,

the wind in his ears, the blood pulsing and racing though his heart once again--until he crashes into a car.

 

Often, the first contact with his new family is punishment, something he's never had before, something he

doesn't understand now, especially in the middle of the rest of the chaos. And worst of all, what are the

most common human reactions to misbehavior? We live in a violent society, where the answer to any irritation

is a slap, punch, kick, whip, or rub your nose in it. Under these circumstances, sometimes I think any

successful adoption is a miracle.

 

He is, in effect, expected to have all the manners of at least a six-year old child. But, how many of you

would leave an unfamiliar six-year old human alone and loose in your home for hours at a time and not

expect to find who knows what when you got back? Consider that if you did, you could be brought up on

charges of child abuse, neglect and endangerment. Yet, people do this to Greyhounds and this is often

the reason for so many returns.

 

How many dogs have been returned because they did not know how to tell the adopter when they had to go out?

How many for jumping on people, getting on furniture, counter surfing, separation anxiety, or defensive

actions due to being startled or hurt (aka growling or biting)? So, let's understand: Sometimes it is

the dog's "fault" he cannot fit in. He is not equipped with the social skills of a six-year old human.

 

But with your love and help, you can make it happen.

[Batmom]

I would get him in for a thorough vet check if you haven't yet and give him a spot where he can chill out when he wants -- perhaps a blanket-draped crate in your office?

[Guest baronsdad]

Thank you everyone,

 

Interesting piece regarding Green Acres Kennel; this is our local training facility and we have taken our other pets there many times. Great people!

Baron has been to the vet for an introduction and general health inspection. In fact, it was during this meeting that we first noticed his behaviors which we (including the vet) initially brushed off. The facility we adopted him from was the only one we heard not be Pro Crate all the time. They did keep the dogs in them, but encouraged letting Baron sleep in the open, which he does at the foot of our bed. I can understand Greyhounds, especially new to us, need consistency and their own space. What is hard for us to grasp is to what degree. He loves being wherever I'm at; if I get of the couch and go to the kitchen, he gets up and is right beside me; he always wants to leave when I head to the door or hears one of the vehicles start, and when confined to my office he whines and watches everything we are doing. I'm not saying I particularly like all these behaviors, but it sounds as though I need to ignore what I think he wants and make him either stay home from work or be in a crate next to me, but unable to get up and pace whenever the door opens or I leave my desk? If this is the case, should we gradually start letting him out more and more often? It has been suggested that we keep doing what we are doing until he acclimates, but to keep him in such as stressed state seems more cruel than anything.

 

It has been a lot too soon, and it's my fault because we enjoy being with him so much. I have read the book mentioned as well as the "Greyhounds for Dummies". Maybe it's time for a refresher. As far as a little more about Baron, he is very young. Apparently washed out early from his race program, which might have something to do with his lack of interest in our 2 chihuahuas. He is definitely a Velcro Dog and a very quick learner. He learned stairs quickly, overcame his initial fear of jumping into the backseat of the truck (he allowed me to lift him in for a week or 2, but one day became very aggressive when I lifted him). After this incident I took him back to the vet thinking there might be joint or muscle pain, but he was placed on antibiotics for a Urinary Tract Infection (he had been exhibiting a lot of licking and very frequent urination). I now see that these are also signs of stress. He loves to go for walk in the woods with our small male chihuahua, has a 5000sf gated backyard to chase his toys on and do top speed laps, and really is the best dog I could have hoped for. I really need to quickly adjust the way I'm handling him so he can be as happy as he makes us.

 

Here's a picture of him being extremely helpful at work

[Batmom]

I wouldn't necessarily shut him in the crate in your office, just provide one, with visual barrier, so he has some space of his own to go chill out if he prefers. But, if he's a dog who is on edge and on his feet every time someone approaches, then it might be better to leave him home at least part of the day. Really hard to say from a distance. Hope things work out, though -- handsome pup to be sure!

[Guest BrianRke]

He's a very handsome boy. Just give him some time to adjust, and a place to call his own, and I think everything will be fine.

[Guest Amber]

I would just add that a once-over by a vet won't necessarily detect skeletal problems and it is interesting that he reacted when you lifted him. A chiropracter is a whole different specialist and need not be expensive.

 

In any case where a dog is exhibiting behaviours that we construe as 'aggressive' the first thing to do is to rule out any pain or medical causes. Has his thyroid been checked?

 

It could well be purely stress, but if he isn't tested and examined then you'll not know for sure.

 

As well as a chill-out crate, might also be a good idea to plug in a DAP diffuser, or a get him a DAP collar as this can help some dogs to feel more secure.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Amber

[Hawthorn]

I would just add that a once-over by a vet won't necessarily detect skeletal problems and it is interesting that he reacted when you lifted him. A chiropracter is a whole different specialist and need not be expensive.

 

I just want to say that I totally agree with this comment. The only time my boy was aggressive towards me was when, unbeknownst to me at the time, he was in pain from a slightly misaligned vertebra in his neck. Our regular vet failed to detect this but an experienced greyhound vet and a chiropractor both found the problem straight away. A visit to a chiropractor might be a very good idea.

[Guest mariah]

While I agree with others that some of what you're describing could be a simple case of "too much, too soon"...

 

He'll come to my side wanting me to pat him, then out of the blue turn around and look at me as though I'm a complete stranger and start in with the same behaviors.

 

This sounds medical to me. Take note the next times he does this, and see if he's reacting due to being touched in the same spot. If your current vet is dismissive, it wouldn't hurt to take him somewhere else for a second opinion. Dogs are very stoic about pain, to the extent that (speaking from experience) some vets aren't the best judges of whether or not a dog is hurting. I had a guy with a very nasty foot injury and actually had to switch vets because the one we were seeing didn't agree with me that he was in pain (it had gotten to the point where I actually felt uncomfortable even taking him out for short leashed walks). If your gut feeling is that he could be hurting, you're probably right.

 

Good luck with him, you sound like committed pet parents, and that's really half the battle.

[Guest courser]

You have gotten some really good advice here. I would add to be cautious to only reward the behavior you want. Sometimes people make the mistake of petting or talking to a growling or stressed, pacing dog "to calm it down". That actually rewards the behavior instead and can make it escalate. It is really important to give him his space and make sure he is getting plenty of rest. Greyhounds need a lot of sleep and can get grumpy if they don't get it. He may not be getting the rest he needs in an office with a lot going on around him.

 

Be careful not to be a "stalker" that constantly goes to the dog to pet him. Let him come to you and others and don't let anyone force unwanted affection on him. Reward him for coming to interact with you with petting, talking or treats but ignore him the rest of the time. That way he will want to interact with you and you will never be "bothering him" and will never give him a reason to growl.

 

The timing is interesting. There is a honeymoon period after adoptions that usually lasts 3 weeks to a month. If growling or snapping happens it seems to start after dog gets comfortable enough in his new home to start to test the boundaries and gets confident enough to start trying to enforce his own rules. He may decide that the couch or the bed is HIS and growl at anyone that comes near it. Often the behavior goes away once the dog learns that nothing in the house belongs to him and the humans just allow him to use everything.

 

I had this issue with my first greyhound. Obedience training stopped it completely. We had so much fun we went on to do competitive Rally Obedience. Behaviors often get temporarily worse before they go away and that may be why you noticed that they escalated the day after a training class. It works this way with humans too. We have all been locked out. What happens? You try to turn the knob and it doesn't turn. You try it again. Most of us realize at this point that we are locked out. Do we give up. Nope! We grab the knob and really shake it a few times as hard as we can and may even jerk the door too just to make sure it really isn't going to work. Same with dogs.

 

Growling has been working for him by what you wrote. When he growls and you turn your back or back away he has gotten what he wants. Each time growling works for him it reinforces that behavior and makes it more likely he will do it again. As the training classes help him realize that you are in charge instead of him, he may escalate his behavior a bit temporarily. When you see that escalation it is often just before it goes away so is usually a good sign.

[Time4ANap]

There are some other folks here on GreyTalk who take their dogs to work with them. One of the things I have seen in the pictures is that they have a bed, crate or other space to call their own somewhere in the office. He doesn't necesarily have to be closed in the crate, but leave the door open so he can come and go into his private space and have a place to settle in if he wants to.

 

Rather than close him in your office when you leave, is it possible to install a walk through gate (think baby-gate) that will allow you and others to come and go, but keeps him in the office and able to see out.? I don't know of many ( if any) greys who are good behind a closed door in a confined room.

 

Again, it sounds like a lot of this will come with time, and these guys are big on routine. Once he learns the office routine, he will be a much better office mate than most humans.