He Bit Me... Again. I Think He Needs A Different Owner.

[Guest greytmiles]

Thanks so much for all of the replies. It's so puzzling and frustrating to me how wonderful and friendly and playful and mellow he is every day all day aside from this one issue. This is such a very specific and isolated 'trigger'. Like I said, it'd been four whole months since he'd made as much as a growl... about ANYTHING.

 

I've reached out to the group and hope to have a proper talk with them come Monday.

 

Erin

[Guest iconsmum]

Sounds like you have a hound that doesn't respect your authority. Question, how does he act when you feed him at home? If you are in the same room, does he growl or bare his teeth? What I would do is to hand-feed him all his meals. If he does act like he wants to guard his food when you are trying to feed him, muzzle him. He can eat through a muzzle and with the muzzle on, you shouldn't feel as afraid to be bit, which will in turn increase your confidence and help the situation. If he senses that you are afraid, he will feed on that fear and become more assertive knowing he is getting his way. With hand feeding, it shows him you are the leader on an instinctual level. There is no confrontation or otherwise negative actions yet he will understand that you are the one that gives him food, and as such, he must respect you. While I am no expert by any means, I have fostered many hounds and have had many people I know use the technique for other issues as well, it is a VERY effective way to bond and establish leadership in your household. I don't think your situation is hopeless, but without really seeing all that is going on, it seems that your guy doesn't respect your leadership and needs to understand his place. To do this, you don't need to dominate him, you can use the hand-feeding technique to easily get him to understand things. Once he starts to learn his place, the NILIF as well as maybe a basic obedience class, he will blossom into a trustworthy boy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This right here, is what trainers worry about sooo much when our clients spend too much time watching tv trainer shows. There is not one across-the-board solution for every dog! Nilif is, sure, one way of approaching your basic dog - and it's not the best way, or the most scientific way, despite the tv "gurus"...

 

There are dogs in this world who, for whatever reason, are so highly attuned to the urge to possess, that they will resource guard not only their food, toy, bowl, BUT the spot on the floor where the food bowl sits, ...and the exact spot on the floor where it was yesterday and the day before...and they are quite casual in their willingness to back it up with aggression when you cross them. You may not have ever seen that dog, but he exists, and he can do lots of damage. To counsel a non-professional owner to take on such a job is to guarantee her that she gets hurt.

The op, who lives with him and is threatened by him, says very intelligently, that she thinks the dog needs another owner - she's perfectly right, she does, without any guilt at all or implication that she didn't try hard enough or get a better trainer, etc. Once you're that afraid of an aggressive dog, you're not the best home for him and the intelligent thing is to find a better solution - and maybe an easier dog.

[Guest Gemma]

Thanks so much for all of the replies. It's so puzzling and frustrating to me how wonderful and friendly and playful and mellow he is every day all day aside from this one issue. This is such a very specific and isolated 'trigger'. Like I said, it'd been four whole months since he'd made as much as a growl... about ANYTHING.

 

I've reached out to the group and hope to have a proper talk with them come Monday.

 

Erin

 

I hope you can work things out. I agree with Giselle on this one: I am worried for you. His behaviour is escalating in a very disturbing way.

[JJNg]

I agree that it would be best to work with a good professional given the escalation and level of aggression shown. An excellent positive trainer I would suggest who isn't too far from you is Pamela Dennison, who specializes in aggression. She is author of a number of books on positive training, including How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong: A Road Map for Rehabilitating Aggressive Dogs and Bringing Light to Shadow: A Dog Trainer's Diary, a personal account of her success training a human-aggressive border collie. Here's her website:

Pamela Dennison's Positive Motivation Dog Training

[Hubcitypam]

If you think he needs a more experienced owner I'd say trust your gut on that. Let us know what the group says.

[Guest Bang_o_rama]

So I take it once he gets the found food you're trying to take it from him?

 

I don't know how many dogs would not have a problem with that scenario.

 

Only every dog I have ever owned. I have had to extract edibles from the jaws of a few dogs; none have ever laid a tooth on me.

 

Bang will pick up and eat any gross ex-living thing she finds and is sneaky about it, turning away in hopes we don't see.

 

Such aggression/"resource guarding" toward people, especially their owners, is not majority behavior.

 

~D~

[Guest d0ggiem0mma]

This is rough. I think that if you are afraid of him (which I sure would be) that finding a new, more experienced home for him may be best for you both. Without a lot of work he will continue to escalate and may eventually be deemed "vicious" and end up being euthanized.

 

Ask yourself this: If you work with a behaviorist and get him rehabed, how long will it take before you trust him again? Are you willing to live with a dog that you do not trust and who you fear will severely injure you?

 

Even if you work with a behaviorist on these issues, they will likely tell you that he will ALWAYS be a bite risk. Can you live with that?

 

If you answer no to those questions, I think you should really consider finding him a new home.

 

 

P.S. Be careful what trainer or behaviorist you work with. Try to get a reference from a local vet if possible. Look for someone that uses positive reinforcement (rewarding wanted behavior.) Punishment based training (shock collars, physical correction, etc) and dominance or pack theory training (dominance rolls, stare downs, etc.) are VERY likely to elicit violent behavior from a dog that has already proved to be a biter.

Edited May 1, 2011 by d0ggiem0mma

[Guest Audeamus]

You know the way I see it, is that if he continues to bite you/future roommates/former roommate eventually someone will report him as dangerous dog. It might be a dr that has to deal with the human after math of Miles' work. Or one day you will be out walking him there could be a small child or frail person who gets between him and whatever he is after food wise. These are things that I would think of if I were in your position amongst others. Some other ones might be the fear of dog since he has escalated in the degree of his biting since you've got him, since his trigger is garbage/food that you can never properly be prepared for when he will trigger next because of just how random it is when you run across, if you intend to ever buy a house and get insurance if his past biting history will bite you in the butt and finally what kind of quality of life it will be for both of you.

I applaud you for working with Miles for this long, working with him to make him a better dog and you a better owner. Many other people would have bounced him from the first bite. I personally think that he is not a dog for a first time dog owner or a relatively inexperienced one ( I don't know if he's your first dog, I'm just guessing here). Sometimes the best thing for everyone is for the dog to be returned to the group, it does not mean you failed him in any sense it just means that you are self aware enough to know that maybe he is not the dog for you/your lifestyle. There are lots of greys out there that would do great with your cats and your roommate; Miles doesn't seem like he is one of them.

If you do decide to work on Miles' issues, you do have a great resource here on GT as well as a support system. All I can say is be consistent with how you train/work on trading up and hopefully it will become a tool for you to use with Miles. Giselle has great, amazingly useful posts on it plus with training posts she's made about Ivy as well Batmom is wealth of information too.

Anyways whatever you do, I wish you great luck doing so.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Audeamus

[JJNg]

d0ggiem0mma bring up some important questions, and I think they are ones that anyone working with a dog with aggression problems needs to consider. Any good behaviorist will tell you that aggression is never 'cured' although it can be improved, but will likely require lifelong management. My suggestion for working with a professional in person was only if that's the way you decide to go.

 

Looking at the big picture, Miles aggressive episodes are quite intense and seem to be out of proportion to what you typically see with food guarding. But the episodes sound like they are pretty infrequent, and have happened in very specific circumstances, which makes it easier to manage. Simply muzzling him with a poop cup on all walks may eliminate much of the risk.

 

Not sure how many people posting to this thread have gone back and read the previous posts about Miles history. I wonder if the original incident (link again here) was the inciting event that led to the current level of reaction to finding food on walks. I suspect that same event may have been what triggered the fear aggression toward the roommate, as it was noted that they'd had a great relationship before that happened.

 

I also noticed that initial incident happened just 4 days after Miles attacked the cat, and while you didn't think the events were related, I think they may be. Any highly stressful event will lead to a surge of cortisol and other stress hormones in the bloodstream that take up to a week to return to normal. While stress hormones are elevated, individuals are more likely to react as well as have more exaggerated responses. Plus, the wounds on Miles face from the cat were probably still painful so having 2 people pry his mouth open to remove the sandwich he grabbed was probably a bad experience all around. Honestly not trying to assign blame here, but just trying to put his responses into perspective.

 

Also based on another previous post as well as the fact that Miles does well with 'drop it' and 'trade' in the house, it doesn't sound like he's inherently a resource guarder. The suspected resource guarding discussed in this thread all appear to be directed toward Joe, and may actually be fear aggression instead. I'm really wondering if the source of most/all of his issues is that one bad experience.

 

One final point...for everyone recommending returning Miles to the group and finding him a more experienced home, how realistic is that option, really? Are most groups willing to take back in and adopt back out a dog with this type of bite history? Unless there's a foster home or group member who plans to keep the dog themselves, are there not liability concerns that might make a group opt for euthanasia rather than take the risk of adopting him out again? I know every case, and every group, is different in their policies and willingness to work with aggression cases, so I guess it just depends on his particular group.

 

And I'm really not bringing this up to guilt you into keeping Miles, but obviously you love him and need to be aware of the potential consequences of returning him. But I agree that if don't feel you have the experience or resources to work with him, then returning him may be the best option, regardless of outcome.

[Guest KennelMom]

If his behavior is getting worse or not getting better in his current home, then returning him may be the best option for him. We have adopted several dogs that had bite or aggression histories that have come in to our home with no/few issues. Even a dog deemed by folks at the track as too aggressive to people and dogs to even pet out (we recently had her hanging out with my MIL's four pound yorkie and my niece & nephew). A new situation/home/environment can be a fresh start for a dog so new rules/boundaries/behaviors can be established. I have yet to see a greyhound that was "unfixabley" aggressive. By the time they've gone through training, raced and then matriculated through an adoption group/foster home, a lot of weeding out has already been done. In most cases like this, I'd look to something environmental/training related to be the issue, rather than some sort of innate aggression.

 

Please don't let this continue to worsen for Miles.

 

Also, folks, remember that we are only hearing one side of what's going on. Miles isn't here telling us his side or an objective person isn't here sharing outside observations of the interactions. There are a lot of details we simply don't know, which is why I hesitate to give any "advice" other than to return the dog or seek a professional, experienced behaviorist.

Edited May 1, 2011 by KennelMom

[Batmom]

One final point...for everyone recommending returning Miles to the group and finding him a more experienced home, how realistic is that option, really? Are most groups willing to take back in and adopt back out a dog with this type of bite history? Unless there's a foster home or group member who plans to keep the dog themselves, are there not liability concerns that might make a group opt for euthanasia rather than take the risk of adopting him out again? I know every case, and every group, is different in their policies and willingness to work with aggression cases, so I guess it just depends on his particular group.

 

It really does depend on the group. Most groups of my acquaintance would take the dog and place him in a different home for reassessment. Sometimes dogs act remarkably differently in different environments, for reasons known only to themselves. Sometimes another environment simply removes triggers -- here, for example, we seldom walk in random areas where we might find discarded food/carrion, and dogs are nearly always muzzled in the yard. And sometimes, another group member may have particular experience and success in working with a given type of "problem" dog -- business as usual, if you will.

[Batmom]

In my opinion, this is extremely disturbing behavior. I can understand if Miles bit you while you physically reached for him. To lunge after you due to light lead pressure, however, is to actively seek out damage, and that is a very severe form of aggression. When aggression turns from defensive to offensive, it is much more difficult to control. It shows that he has extremely low frustration tolerance, low impulse control, quick reactivity, and is beginning to attack rather than produce mere warning nips/bites. You can Trade Up all you want and do Doggy Zen-style leave it, but these are just really basic fundamental behaviors. It's going to take a lot of holistic work to mold Miles into a SAFE pet. The damage of the attack has escalated, and, in my opinion, dogs who've hit that level of aggression don't ever really "unlearn" it. You can manage situations and teach alternative behaviors, but, if they ever get pushed again to that level of frustration, I do believe that they will react with the same level of severity as the last time.

 

I have to disagree with this, and strongly. From what OP has reported so far, this dog's adverse behaviors are pretty predictable, situation-dependent, limited, and well in line with how dogs act when strongly focused on one thing but startled or frightened by something else. Not all dogs respond the same way in those situations, but Miles' behavior is well within the realm of ordinary dogness. His behaviors are malleable ones that in my experience respond nicely to fairly ordinary training methods.

[kickchick2000]

I have to agree with KennelMom, I would return him to the adoption group. Let me explain why.

 

I had a similar although not nearly severe experience with a foster and space aggression. Foster was terrible in his first home which is why he was in a crate all the time or boarded to the point he was very weak in his back legs from lack of movement by the time I got him. He came to me and lived with me for almost a year and we NEVER ONCE had a space incident between the foster and my other greyhound. Foster went to his final home(he's since passed away), behavior came right back but this home was VERY experienced and knew how to handle it. I truly believe sometimes they just need a different environment. It doesn't mean your a bad owner or you've done anything wrong, the folks who adopted that foster from me are like the best greyhound people in the universe and WAY better owners than I'll ever be yet the foster showed the behavior at their house and never at mine.

 

My point is we didn't do anything special or different we were just a different home and for whatever reason he never acted out. It's possible that in a different home Miles would be just fine or he may have a serious underlining behavior/medical issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest KennelMom]

One final point...for everyone recommending returning Miles to the group and finding him a more experienced home, how realistic is that option, really? Are most groups willing to take back in and adopt back out a dog with this type of bite history? Unless there's a foster home or group member who plans to keep the dog themselves, are there not liability concerns that might make a group opt for euthanasia rather than take the risk of adopting him out again? I know every case, and every group, is different in their policies and willingness to work with aggression cases, so I guess it just depends on his particular group.

 

 

Euthanasia is a very real possibility if the dog is returned. Since he has been allowed to bite so many times and his behavior has been made so public, whether or not the group will work with the dog or put him down really depends on the group. I have worked with both kinds - one that will not adopt out a dog with a bite history and will euthanize instead, and ones that will work with each individual dog to rehab them and place them in the right home. I think aggression is so rarely seen in greyhounds that many groups really just don't know what to do with a dog with these sorts of issues.

[Guest iconsmum]

This is rough. I think that if you are afraid of him (which I sure would be) that finding a new, more experienced home for him may be best for you both. Without a lot of work he will continue to escalate and may eventually be deemed "vicious" and end up being euthanized.

 

Ask yourself this: If you work with a behaviorist and get him rehabed, how long will it take before you trust him again? Are you willing to live with a dog that you do not trust and who you fear will severely injure you?

 

Even if you work with a behaviorist on these issues, they will likely tell you that he will ALWAYS be a bite risk. Can you live with that?

 

If you answer no to those questions, I think you should really consider finding him a new home.

 

 

P.S. Be careful what trainer or behaviorist you work with. Try to get a reference from a local vet if possible. Look for someone that uses positive reinforcement (rewarding wanted behavior.) Punishment based training (shock collars, physical correction, etc) and dominance or pack theory training (dominance rolls, stare downs, etc.) are VERY likely to elicit violent behavior from a dog that has already proved to be a biter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Totally agree with this.

[GeorgeofNE]

If his behavior is getting worse or not getting better in his current home, then returning him may be the best option for him. We have adopted several dogs that had bite or aggression histories that have come in to our home with no/few issues. Even a dog deemed by folks at the track as too aggressive to people and dogs to even pet out (we recently had her hanging out with my MIL's four pound yorkie and my niece & nephew). A new situation/home/environment can be a fresh start for a dog so new rules/boundaries/behaviors can be established. I have yet to see a greyhound that was "unfixabley" aggressive. ....[stuff removed for brevity]

 

 

I have to say that I completely agree with this. Clearly there is something wrong with the situation now--but a different situation would be--different.

 

In the hands of someone else, this dog might be just fine. I'm not suggesting that OP isn't a good owner or has done a thing wrong--but I don't believe this dog should stay where he is.

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I'll repeat that this is NOT normal doggie behavior... a little teeth showing when the food is reached for by the person, MAYBE, in a few dogs, with no training, is normal. Attacking viciously is disturbing.

 

I agree- professional help is certainly in order.

 

For the record, I would not rehome this dog if I got him returned. I would keep him, PTS, or look for someone like KennelMom who would like to try rehabilitating him. But I wouldn't pet him out to another family/pet owner.

[JJNg]

I have yet to see a greyhound that was "unfixabley" aggressive. By the time they've gone through training, raced and then matriculated through an adoption group/foster home, a lot of weeding out has already been done. In most cases like this, I'd look to something environmental/training related to be the issue, rather than some sort of innate aggression.

Definitely agree with this, and I think it applies to most other dogs too, even without the 'weeding out' that greyhounds get. A truly innately aggressive dog, due to neurologic problems or psychological instability, is rare. The vast majority of time, aggression is due to stress, environment, and other outside factors.

 

Whether Miles should be returned or not is a decision that only Erin can make, hopefully after considering all aspects of the situation. While getting him into a different environment may eliminate the behavior or make it much easier to change, it is also possible to change his associations and responses in the same home. But for this to happen, I agree that professional help is needed, and his owner needs to be willing to make some changes to how things are managed and commit to working with him. Appropriate training method (positive reinforcement) is very important as any confrontational method risks making him worse.

 

I don't think anyone can determine what level of aggression is 'normal doggie behavior'. It is hugely dependent on situation, past experiences, and stress level. While more pronounced than typical food guarding, I don't think this is straight-forward resource guarding behavior, as I discussed in my previous post. Given the fact that he had a somewhat traumatic experience associated with finding food in the street while he was already stressed from a recent prior incident, I don't find his response that day, or his subsequent behavior to be completely unexpected.

 

Is roommate Joe still in the picture? The thread from back in January mentioned some tension in the household. That thread also included some disagreement about whether growling should be reprimanded. Which advice was followed? All of these are factors that could be contributing to the behavior getting worse.

[TheFullHouse]

I can tell you from personal experience, you can turn these dogs around but it takes a long time, a lot of consistency and a lot of patience. It took us two years of hard work with Valentino but if you met him today, you would never know that he had any problems at all, but like I said, you have to be willing to work really hard.

[Guest Swifthounds]

I don't think anyone can determine what level of aggression is 'normal doggie behavior'. It is hugely dependent on situation, past experiences, and stress level.

 

It's definitely not normal for a dog to be so offensively aggressive with a human. Sure, there may be issues, anxieties, past experiences, and even medical issues that are the root of this behavior, but everything that a dog can tell about a human tells them that we are the stronger, smarter, superior predator in really every aspect, so it is abnormal to have this type of aggression directed at a human. When you look at the gamut of aggressive or unacceptable behaviors by dog's, most of them an correctly be classified as defensive behaviors, if overreacting ones. What the OP is describing is definitely moving (or moved) beyond that.

[Batmom]

It's definitely not normal for a dog to be so offensively aggressive with a human. Sure, there may be issues, anxieties, past experiences, and even medical issues that are the root of this behavior, but everything that a dog can tell about a human tells them that we are the stronger, smarter, superior predator in really every aspect

 

I could not disagree more strongly. As far as we can tell from general dog behavior, dogs don't think that way. At all.

 

With all due respect to jjing, I've seen similar behavior from a number of reasonably good, workable dogs over the years. Not desirable behavior, certainly, and perhaps not terribly common in *greyhounds*, but certainly not uncommon in *dogs*. You see it in a variety of situations -- fear, pain, entrapment, strong focus on prey.....

[JJNg]

Batmom, I think you misunderstood my comment...if you read the rest of the paragraph after line Swifthounds quoted from my post, you'll see that I agree with you completely. I feel that Miles' responses is definitely normal, or at least not unexpected. Using the word 'normal' may be the problem here, as people vary widely in what they consider normal dog behavior. Some would say that it's not normal for dogs to show any aggression at all.

 

Aggressive behavior that starts off as defensive can often turn into more offensive displays and 'attacks' through learning or continued exposure to the stressor. My very obviously fear aggressive IG escalated to the point of 'attacking' me when I naively used inappropriate training methods recommended by vets and traditional trainers. By 'attack' I mean he would jump on me and lunge and bite multiple times.

 

My girl Willow can be wary of men, and she has gone out of her way to go after a man she didn't trust who was walking past in the next room! Fortunately she has good bite inhibition and her nips have never even left a mark. She's since gotten to know this guy and is fine with him now.

 

As to the comment about dogs knowing that humans are the superior predator, and therefore this type of aggression is abnormal - that makes absolutely no sense to me, and I agree that dogs don't think that way. Any dog who feels threatened enough, or is stressed enough, can act that offensively aggressive if he feels that is what's necessary to keep himself safe.

[Batmom]

Thanks for explaining, jjng. I do agree with you.

[cleptogrey]

It's not okay to let dogs eat cooked bones that could kill them. It's not okay for dogs to attack their owners over food. I would NOT have a dog that I could not take food from, and in all the dozens and dozens of countless dogs I have had, fostered, boarded, lived with, watched, etc- I have never had one that I couldn't take food from, and only a TINY amount of dogs that were like the OPs dog and even required any training to let me take food from them. My experience tells me that most dogs are fine having food taken from them by an adult they in any way know. I routinely put my hands in the dishes of even the racers at the track and I've never had one even look at me funny. Raise the bar, folks, really, most dogs don't bite their owners, and owners shouldn't think it's okay!

 

To the OP, you have an unusual situation, IMO, but not an impossible one. I don't think it's your fault at all. I would start with the muzzle idea, a very good one, as a first and immediate step while working with a trainer or savvy friend (maybe someone from your adoption group?) to correct the behavior. His reaction is pretty extreme, but he does it because it has worked for him (and not just with you... maybe he was the bully in his litter, who knows, you know?) in the past. Dogs do what works in their world to get what they want, and they keep doing it until proven otherwise.

 

 

the trainer is a FANTASTIC idea. check with your local vet and ask if he/she knows of anyone reliable. you can also ask your adoption group.call and interview trainers. akc and apdt have web sites and you can research schools/trainers there.

 

you need an experienced trainer who will set a plan and be there for support. it sounds like there are lots of dynamics in the situation and talking w/ both your vet, adoption rep and an experinced trainer or two will help you decide if YOU have the heart, patience and commitiment to make things work. it's not easy, and you and your roommate need to be in this 100%.

 

btw, how much exercise is your pup getting? and how old is he? keep all of us informed.

Edited May 1, 2011 by cleptogrey

[Guest Giselle]

In light of the previous incidences brought up by jjng, I can see how the attack was not entirely unexpected. But I believe the risk of future attacks is very strong and I don't know if keeping him in spit of those risks is a safe idea. Believe me, I'm not one to give up. I poured out my heart into a Pittie that was brutally mishandled and produced horrendous offensive aggression in mildly stressful situations, and, being 80 lbs of pure muscle, he did a LOT of damage (search my old topics). It took very very mild triggers to set him off, but we still worked with him because he was with two fabulous, experienced owners who ran a Pitbull rehabilitation center. EVEN with them, however, the stresses to trigger an aggressive attack were so mild that his behavior was ultimately too unstable and it was not ethical to rehome him.

 

I understand that Miles has undergone perhaps some unsavory experiences and perhaps his hormone levels were raised prior to this incident, but I'm truly and deeply concerned that he offensively attacked his owner in such a severe manner due to a very mild trigger. IMO, the severity of the attack in light of the extremely mild trigger is just far too disturbing for me to suggest anything other than a serious reconsideration of his homing situation.