11Yr Old With Sudden, Shockingly Low Thyroid (Below 3)

[Guest sorenkkg]

So, Haka and Aleeya (siblings, 11yrs old) had their annual wellness and hearworm blood tests yesterday.

 

 

Today, I got the vet call, she asked if I had time to discuss

 

 

 

Aleeya was perfectly fine-- which is great, b/c she's been on prednisone for the better part of the year in different doses, and that can cause concern. She's a-ok and we're weaning her off anyway, almost done!

 

 

Haka, however...

 

 

 

She said his thyroid number was shockingly low. I was like, ??? (sometimes it's white blood count, and then they re-do the test and it's fine).

 

I'm like, well, greyhounds are always a little low, right?

 

 

She said-- well, in 2009, he was 20.2. we didn't do the test last year. Today, he's BELOW 3

 

 

 

 

Then she asked if he had any of the symptoms of hypothyroidism-- flaky skin? no

 

low energy? (you're kidding right?) no, not lower than usual

 

weight gain or trouble losing? no-- actually, he's 82 and is ok at 84, so I'm glad if he's a little lower (starting to have arthritis etc)

 

dull, slow witted? again, are you kidding? he only responds to his name when he wants to. But no-- he still loves to play and go outside, and recently even ASKED to go out back, dashed to a particular toy, and brought it back inside.

 

 

No change in his eating (he even wants to eat Aleeya's leftovers-- which I don't let, which is how he lost that extra pound or 2...), no change in sleeping, no lumps or bumps or losing fur or anything.

 

 

 

So-- after speaking to my greyhound group lady in Montreal, who thinks this is clearly a lab mistake (vet says she asked, and no) - I took him back in for a fresh blood draw, in case there was something weird with the sample from yesterday. They'll do a full thyroid panel, looking for the indicator that his body needs to make more thyroid hormone (I think that's what she said?)

 

We also have an appt for Tuesday with one of the vets who's seen him the most, since they said they need to do a full physical (the vet doing the draw today felt him up all over too) and hopefully we'll have some answers?

 

 

 

Can someone please explain to me what's going on, what he may or may not have, and what they are looking for in the blood tests and in the physical? I'm trying not to get freaked out here.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance for any help, knowledge, good thoughts...

 

 

 

Soren

[macoduck]

Sounds like you have a different measurement system in Canada. Low here with one of my dogs has been < 0.4

Here's a link to Dr Jean Dodds at http://www.hemopet.org/FAQ.html You can email her with the results and questions. I heard back form her within an hour.

[greyhead]

Canadian measurements are different from U.S. labs, so I can't relate to your numbers. You don't say which value was below 3, and there are several values to be measured. In any case, hypothyroidism is nothing to be afraid of and not a complete shock in an older dog. If you use "hypothyroid" as a search term in this forum, you'll get bunches of info. I have to run out the door, but I'm sure others can jump in and help you understand this, especially those familiar with how Canadian test results look.

 

 

[Batmom]

T4 can vary from 0 to waaaaaaaaay up from day to day and hour to hour. Totally normal. If the dog has no symptoms, ignore it. If the dog has symptoms, then you'd want a full thyroid panel, with fT4ed (free T4 by equilibrium dialysis) and TSH.

[Guest Swifthounds]

T4 can vary from 0 to waaaaaaaaay up from day to day and hour to hour. Totally normal. If the dog has no symptoms, ignore it. If the dog has symptoms, then you'd want a full thyroid panel, with fT4ed (free T4 by equilibrium dialysis) and TSH.

 

 

At 13, Comet's T4 was veerry low, but the full panel came back fine. There are lots of reasons for a low T4 and lots of variation over time. Older males greyhounds seem to trend toward very low T4s.

[Guest sorenkkg]

T4 can vary from 0 to waaaaaaaaay up from day to day and hour to hour. Totally normal. If the dog has no symptoms, ignore it. If the dog has symptoms, then you'd want a full thyroid panel, with fT4ed (free T4 by equilibrium dialysis) and TSH.

 

 

Ok, good to know-- didn't know there weren't standard number scales?

 

 

Yes, Batmom-- no obvious symptoms (and I work from home 99% of the time, so I'm with them literally all day) and also yes, I remember her saying the TSH is something they are doing in this panel, and I guess all the other related stuff.

 

 

Swfthound-- ok, that also makes me feel a bit better too-- I'm hoping it's like their white blood cell count-- each year one or the other of them flags as really low, then they run a more in-depth test and it's fine.

 

 

 

there's human thyroid issues in my family, but I've not come up with any yet (though I keep asking my dr. b/c it's so hard for me to lose weight... sigh) so maybe I've just sort of ignored all this knowledge I should know as a greyhound mom?

 

Sounds like you have a different measurement system in Canada. Low here with one of my dogs has been < 0.4

Here's a link to Dr Jean Dodds at http://www.hemopet.org/FAQ.html You can email her with the results and questions. I heard back form her within an hour.

 

 

Just read through the link-- will keep this in my back pocket for when I get more info from the panel next week. Thanks!

[Batmom]

T4 just isn't a very useful test. It fluctuates a lot, by nature. You can have zero one day, up in the 20s (2.0 for US users) the next, back to 0 the next .... all in a healthy dog without low (or high) thyroid.

[GeorgeofNE]

No reason to freak out. If he DOES actually have low thyroid, it's easily treatable.

 

Heck, my mother had her thyroid removed, and she's just fine on a daily pill!

[Guest sorenkkg]

Thanks Batmom and Susan!

 

I'm calming down, and agree with you-- even if he had to go on meds, it's not a huge deal.

 

 

I'm praying that it's all bogus and the full panel comes back with good info. They said 2-3 working days from yesterday, so fingers crossed.

 

 

 

S.

[Jiffer]

Have them run a full panel. Thyroid is an easy to deal with thing... pilling twice daily.

 

Atlas was 10.5 when his wellness panel came back with a ridiculously low thyroid number: 4 (I think) when normal ranges are 13 - 51. We're still trying to get his levels to normalize (he was for a while but is back to fluctuating again; his latest reading was 8 while on the meds). All of his previous wellness panels, which were done every year, came back normal.

 

In Atty's case, however, he is largely asymptomatic, except for weight LOSS. Despite feeding more, his weight was dropping. Now that he's on meds, his weight has stabilized and he has regained that which he lost.

[greyhead]

Have them run a full panel. Thyroid is an easy to deal with thing... pilling twice daily.

 

Atlas was 10.5 when his wellness panel came back with a ridiculously low thyroid number: 4 (I think) when normal ranges are 13 - 51. We're still trying to get his levels to normalize (he was for a while but is back to fluctuating again; his latest reading was 8 while on the meds). All of his previous wellness panels, which were done every year, came back normal.

 

In Atty's case, however, he is largely asymptomatic, except for weight LOSS. Despite feeding more, his weight was dropping. Now that he's on meds, his weight has stabilized and he has regained that which he lost.

I'm so glad you shared this! Most people don't realize that hypothyroidism can show up in symptoms that are the opposite of the ones expected, such as weight loss instead of weight gain. Then people think they shouldn't medicate their dog with low numbers "because he doesn't have any symptoms."

[Guest LokisMom]

I don't treat thyroid "issues" without symptoms. If he seems fine then he probably is. I had a hypothyroid senior. He took 2 pills a day and was fine until osteo got him.

 

Agree with everything batmom says.

[Guest Energy11]

Sounds like you have a different measurement system in Canada. Low here with one of my dogs has been < 0.4

Here's a link to Dr Jean Dodds at http://www.hemopet.org/FAQ.html You can email her with the results and questions. I heard back form her within an hour.

 

 

I TOTALLY encourage you to contact Dr. Dodds. She saved my Goldie's life :-) Good Luck!

[greyhead]

I don't treat thyroid "issues" without symptoms. If he seems fine then he probably is. I had a hypothyroid senior. He took 2 pills a day and was fine until osteo got him.

 

Agree with everything batmom says.

What's the difference between "issues" and "symptoms"?

[Guest LokisMom]

I meant a thyroid that tests low versus treating a dog displaying symptoms and testing low. I was trying to shorthand as I was on my phone.

 

For example the test shows issues with thyroid but the dog has NO symptoms. I wouldn't treat in that situation personally. I had a bad experience with a dog who was being way overmedicated just to make his test results look normal. His tests looked great but he was way underweight, panting and pacing constantly etc. Trying to correct the tests but ignoring the symptoms made him sick.

[kronckew]

the greyhound health packet is worth a read, covers apparent hypothyroid and low white cell counts, which can be normal in greyhounds, as well as other conditions separating greyhounds from other dog breeds.

[greyhead]

But don't fail to notice that the greyhounds in the studies listed at the end of the Greyhound Health Packet describe thyroid levels in dogs much, much younger than yours (some even under 2 years old), and some of them still active racers.

[Batmom]

There are other studies including older dogs. In addition, OP's dog's only indicator is a low T4, a near-useless test.

 

But, advancing age would be all the more reason to be skeptical of supposed hypothyroid status in a dog without symptoms and/or without clear indicators of hypothyroidism on full, modern test results. Thyroid function does decline somewhat with age and that is normal. Supplementing it in unnecessarily, or oversupplementing it, in elderly people has been found to be associated with loss of bone density and increased fracture risk. Egad.

[greyhead]

There are other studies including older dogs. In addition, OP's dog's only indicator is a low T4, a near-useless test.

 

But, advancing age would be all the more reason to be skeptical of supposed hypothyroid status in a dog without symptoms and/or without clear indicators of hypothyroidism on full, modern test results. Thyroid function does decline somewhat with age and that is normal. Supplementing it in unnecessarily, or oversupplementing it, in elderly people has been found to be associated with loss of bone density and increased fracture risk. Egad.

Holy Hypothyroid, Batmom! Nobody, much less me, is suggesting that the OP medicate on the basis of T4 alone, or that a full panel not be done, etc., etc., etc. I'm just pointing out that it's bothersome when results obtained on one study population (e.g., very young dogs, brood moms, and stud dogs) are applied to dogs in a completely different stage of life. If people stop and think about it, that's like expecting geriatric bodies to function like adolescents! I only point out these group differences because not everyone realizes how much they matter. (And the older dogs in those studies are not, I think, very old.)

 

I've argued elsewhere that symptoms of hypothyroidism are not always visible or easily determined. And I would also argue that just because decline in thyroid function with age is normal in the sense of expectable, that's no reason in and of itself to leave it uncorrected. Dee's Goldie, for example, is doing much better with thyroid supplementation. And what is she, 12? But again, I'm not opining that OP's dog should be supplemented without further consideration.

[Batmom]

I meant normal as in "should not be supplemented."

 

If you don't have symptoms and you don't have supporting results on reliable tests, you have no cause to believe that low or high thyroid is causing a problem or will cause a problem in future.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Batmom

[greyhead]

If you don't have symptoms, you will know that. If your dog has symptoms like irregular heartbeat or joint pain, you may not know that. And if a greyhound is underweight because of being hypothyroid, nobody is going to suspect a thing! So I'm just much more cautious than you when it comes to declaring a non-verbal being to be symptom-free.

 

So my declining thyroid function was normal for a 50-year-old as you see it, and I should not have been supplemented. So I should now be just living with the joint pain, fatigue, irregular heartbeat, uncomfortably low body temp, mental fuzziness, etc.? Or do you see it differently for people and dogs?

 

As you may know, Jey, you are super helpful and I really like you a lot. But sometimes I think we should just meet somewhere and have this thyroid thing out!

 

 

[Guest LokisMom]

But if a greyhound is being supplemented and experiencing discomfort, iregular heartbeat, weight loss, joint pain etc(or whatever other symptoms) of being hyperthyroid then we may not see that either.

 

The dog I spoke of in my other post was over-medicated for years because his prior owners and vet didn't see any symptoms. He was so highly medicated he was displaying HYPERthyroid symptoms. They thought he was just nervous and skinny. All of that straightened out when he was taken off the meds.(He did end up on a low dose of soloxine so I am certainly not suggesting people never medicate for hypothyroidism. I just feel greyhound owners in particular need to be much more careful about it and do a lot more research before they run off and medicate based solely on tests and especially just t4 which as batmom has said means nothing)

 

ETA: They were medicating based on t4 alone. Not symptoms, not a full panel.

 

And then there's the issue that you can make a dog hypothyroid. Or a person. If you medicate for something that isn't there, the body can and often does stop producing the applicable hormone because the meds are producing it. When taken off the meds you have created the very problem you were trying to solve. (Assuming it doesn't exist in the first place).

Edited April 30, 2011 by LokisMom

[Batmom]

If you don't know the dog has symptoms, and the best test results we can get show that the dog isn't hypothyroid, why would you supplement? I just don't get that.

 

There is a range of reduced thyroid activity (and reduced other things, and elevated other things ) that we expect to find with advancing age (or very young age) in humans and that is considered normal for those ages. And no, we don't normally medicate infants so that they have the values of 90 year olds, or medicate 90 year olds so they have the value of 20 year olds. That would be bad practice and in some cases would kill the patient.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Batmom

[greyhead]

"If you don't know the dog has symptoms, and the best test results we can get show that the dog isn't hypothyroid, why would you supplement? I just don't get that."

 

Well, of course you wouldn't get it. Neither do I!!! Who said anything about treating in the absence of test results? I thought we were talking about treating in the presence of a panel of positive test results but perhaps the absence of visible, expected symptoms like weight gain!

 

But I'm not returning to this thread, so anybody can say anything they want without an answer from me. One of my dog's UTI seems to be returning and he has bloody poop today too. The other dog, with IBD, has sky-high liver values and a swollen lymph node that they won't aspirate for another two weeks, and he's not eating enough. So fighting for two inches of space in a thyroid argument like this isn't something I have the spirit for right now. (I'm not mad at anyone, I just have serious heartburn!)

[Guest sorenkkg]

Hi Folks,

 

 

We saw the vet today-- I like her, she's seen Haka for just about all of his orthopedic injuries (his favorite kind). She's very calm and rational.

 

 

first, the numbers from the endocrinology report:

 

 

 

T3 1.38 range 0.90 - 2.10 nmol/L (so, this is a normal reading)

 

T4 <5.0 range 13.0 - 53.0 nmol/L (so, this is still wicked low)

 

Free T4 <3.86 range 7.7 - 47.6 pmol/L (also, very low)

 

Canine TSH 0.32 range 0 - 0.60 ng/mL

 

Canine TgAA negative

 

Comment: to follow (the lab apparently usually sends some observations-- these will be in later this week)

 

 

 

Discussion: so, she says it's not really hypothyroid, b/c the TSH number would be something else (that's the indicator that there is a call for more thyroid production I think?). Also, it's not autoimmune, b/c the TgAA is negative.

 

But the T4 and Free T4 are still very low-- even taking into account he's a greyhound and 11yrs old.

 

 

She says it's more likely a symptom of another issue (she had a term for it, and it's totally slipped my mind)-- sort of like Aleeya's uveitis could have been secondary to a TBD or cancer...

 

She says this b/c the TSH and T3 are normal, but the T4 and Free T4 are still low-- she likens it to turning down the thermostat... there's something brewing (she says) and his body is trying to slow it down.

 

 

 

One option: we go looking for what it *may* be. Chest xrays (which he often has to be sedated for, but not always) and abdominal ultrasound. If a lump is found, what kind of lump? What would we do? If no lumps are found-- other tests?

 

 

2nd option: do nothing right now. She gave him a vigourous physical-- she thinks a couple things are a bit "off"-- he's got some crustiness around his mouth, and she thought he was salivating a bit more than usual. I pointed out the crustiness actually-- Aleeya doesn't have it-- it's like he can't keep his face clean.

 

She said that maybe he's not swallowing quite as well, extra salivation, maybe licking something a lot (he licks his ankles, he's a little arthritic, he's on Sasha's blend for that).

 

She thought he might have a little pain/loss of mobility when looking straight up. We moved a treat all around, and he can reach the floor and side to side, but not super happy going right over his head. So maybe orthopedic pain in the neck? He doesn't put his paws up on the car tailgate anymore, but he still gets up on the couch and does stairs fine. I think he's just getting older....

 

She did this thing where she bent his back toes under, so he's standing on his knuckles. Normally, he should NOT remain like that... he didn't, but she thought his reaction was a bit on the slow side. I thought, he's used to being man-handled to a degree, being a greyhound. But she said it could indicate a loss of nerve signals somewhere along the way. We'll watch that.

 

 

 

We have a recall to do the thyroid blood test in 6 months. I've been assigned to do the mobility test and run my hands on all his bones 1x per week-- if there's a cancer, it would hurt (even as stoic as he is, and he really really is VERY stoic) and call them.

 

 

 

thoughts? I'm leaning toward not doing the tests (as she pointed out-- what would we do if we did find *something* ?)

 

 

 

thanks folks

 

Soren