Irritable Bowel Disease And Ple

[Guest zaylea]

I have a male greyhound named Batou that just turned 4. I've had him since he was 2.5 years old. He's had recurring bouts of diarrhea the entire time I've had him. He would sometimes have mucous in his stool, and it gradually increased in frequency. I had taken him to the vet several times, and they would send out fecal samples and nothing abnormal would come up. The usual treatment was metronidazole, sucralfate, and bland diet (chicken and rice or potatoes). This never seemed to really clear it up. He's always on Heartgard plus, and we tried a round of Panacur just in case. Most of the time he was eating Blue Buffalo Large Breed Chicken and Rice. We tried to switching to different sources of protein, but that didn't make a difference.

 

Batou's normal weight is 83 lbs. In December 2010, I noticed he started getting a little fat. Then he gradually got fatter and fatter, until he looked like he was pregnant and his back legs were swollen. Liver, kidney, heart failure, etc was ruled out, and he was diagnosed with Protein-Losing Enteropathy (PLE). He had an ultrasound, x-rays, and an endoscopy. By the time he went in for his endoscopy, he weighed 108 lbs. While he was under for that, they drained 8 liters of fluid from his abdomen. His albumin levels were very low. He looked so emaciated that his spine was poking out and looked like a stegosaurus. He was started on 30mg of prednisone twice a day (i.e. 60mg per day), and the rest of the fluid went away and hasn't returned. The results of the biopsy from the endoscopy led to the diagnosis of Irritable Bowel Disease. He's still on the prednisone and he's also on metronidazole and proviable d/c (probiotics). He's also on Hills Prescription Diet z/d ultra dry food. His weight is now holding around 70 lbs, and his albumin is back to a normal level.

 

The problem is, there is still mucous in his stool. It's formed, there hasn't been anymore diarrhea, but there's slightly bloody mucous. His vet wants to put him on imuran. She has been reluctant to do so, because she says sometimes sighthounds don't react well to it and it can destroy his bone marrow.

 

Does anyone have experience with using imuran to treat IBD? Also, if you have a dog with IBD, what kind of food have you been giving him?

Edited March 28, 2011 by zaylea

[greyhead]

RobinM has used imuran for her Beau, and hopefully you'll hear from her and others. (I suspect you mean Inflammatory Bowel Disease, which is more likely to get her attention, if you can edit your original post heading.) Also using imuran as a search term in this H&M forum will yield 88 threads where it's mentioned; see white box, upper right?

 

We feed only venison to our Spencer: canned (Wellness), kibble (Natural Balance), and raw (Primal Pets). Experience showed that exactly one-third raw gave a good result. Some of our vets were skeptical about giving raw food to an IBD dog but said to stay with it since it apparently works for him.

 

Tylan (tylosin) was the final piece of the complicated medicinal puzzle for us in terms of getting the poop to come out right, so to speak. It's a "mild" antibiotic that hadn't done anything for him early in the game, so I wasn't expecting much. But after we'd cleared up his SIBO infection and gotten started with budesonide and metronidazol for his IBD, it did the trick. Btw, L-glutamine is a wonderful trick for restoring the GI tract's walls to health.

 

Welcome to GT, btw! You've come to a great place for information and shared experience. Best of luck to you and Batou on this. Love that name!

 

Edited to add: We feed venison because we exposed him to most of the other proteins before we knew he had IBD, so he developed an inflammatory response to them. It's especially sad because venison is especially expensive. But we have some hopes that some types of fish will still be all right. (We never did try a prescription diet, and some on this forum who did try them found that their dogs didn't do well. Some also, like Stripeyfan, do home cooking and get a good result.)

Edited March 28, 2011 by greyhead

[Guest Stripeyfan]

So sorry Batou has been having such a rough time! And welcome to GT.

 

Kelly's IBD was triggered (we suspect) by massive parasite damage, although we chose not to have a biopsy done because he began to improve before it got to the stage of needing to do one. He can't eat ANY sort of dog food, and prescription diets make him sickest of all, which is why, like Greyhead says, we've chosen to home cook for him (chicken and rice + supplements).

 

As far as meds go, Kelly was on pred for about 10 months and will probably have to be on oxytetracycline (an AB) for the rest of his life, although it's now at a very low dose. He also gets a probiotic and we found Omega 3 fish oil was the last step to getting firm poop, as it can have an anti-inflammatory effect in IBD dogs. We worked up from 1 capsule a day to 3.

 

Kelly had mucousy poop for ages even after his diarrhea cleared up, and one thing our vet did tell us was that given the inflammation in his gut, it was to be expected, and not to worry about it too much (although it is worrying, I know!). As his gut healed, the mucous cleared up, but it took a while. You could try slippery elm bark - we gave it to Kelly daily for several months and that really helped too.

 

Good luck and sending lots of hugs to you and your boy!

[Guest caliebsmom]

My nine year old boxer suffers from IBD. She was diagnosed with it many years while on the Z/D for her skin issues. We now feed her a combination of raw turkey & bone from Blue Rdige Beef, Sojos fruit & veggie mix and Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. We give her flax oil and just started a pro-biotic. We were using chicken & bone but she was having flare ups so we switched her to turkey. Our vet said that chicken is one protein source that very often causes issues for IBD dogs. Right now we do not have her on any meds for it. She has had prednisone and metronidazole in the past. She was on a short course of metronidazole to get her last flare up under control.

[RobinM]

Our Beau was diagnosed via open exploratory surgery after endless, tests, sonos, x-rays, fecals, treatments, antibiotics, powers, probiotics, ... get the picture!?

 

His weight went down to 52.4 pounds. I remember showing his picture and some GTer said to me.. "that is just how ________ looked just before he died".

 

We fought like crazy. After the diagnosis, he was put on 40mg of pred. He was too sick to eat still but because I had tried so many proteins before diagnosis to get him to eat, I was SOL with what to give him so I tried tilapia, He would eat it. He didn't eat much at first as he was still recuperating from major surgery. I fed him EVERY 3 hours to get some weight on him. 3 weeks post op we added in the 50mg of imuran, upped the pred to 50mg and started on the z/d. We gave this dog NOTHING but z/d wet, dry and tilapia for over 18 months. NOTHING else, not a crumb of anything which is a feat in itself as we had 3 other dogs at the time.

 

Within a month after starting the imuran we were able to lower the pred a little because he was gaining weight. Slowly over the course of the year we lowered and lowered and finally stopped the imuran. We did blood tests every 3 months while on the pred/imuran.

He was fine.

 

We bought a dehydrator and would dehydrate 10 pounds of tilapia a week for him. He had those treats and the z/d cookies. We also stuffed hooves with the z/d wet and froze them as a treat.

 

We were later able to add in cookie duck meat for him.

 

There is a very good, informative group on yahoo for IBD dogs. They are very knowledgeable, however they are gestapo like in their rules.

 

Beau's poop was never great.

 

We thank God for him every day,

Edited March 28, 2011 by RobinM

[Guest zaylea]

Thank you all for your input!

 

I'm going to talk to my vet about switching Batou to Nutro Natural Choice Grain-Free Venison and Potato, because I know he's never been exposed to that before. Also, I found that IBD dog yahoo group, and wow, that's quite an application they have there. If the mucous is going to take several months go away, I think maybe adding imuran is premature, but I'll talk to my vet about that too.

[4My2Greys]

Please check out the thread Effects of Manuka honey for IBD and consider using it before you use the Imuran.

ETA: Especially if the mucousy poop is a result of the inflammation. The study showed that Manuka honey significantly reduced colonic inflammation.

Edited March 30, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Guest zaylea]

Please check out the thread Effects of Manuka honey for IBD and consider using it before you use the Imuran.

ETA: Especially if the mucousy poop is a result of the inflammation. The study showed that Manuka honey significantly reduced colonic inflammation.

 

I'm pretty wary of "alternative medicine", but it doesn't seem like this honey will hurt anything, so I may give it a try. Thanks!

[4My2Greys]

Please check out the thread Effects of Manuka honey for IBD and consider using it before you use the Imuran.

ETA: Especially if the mucousy poop is a result of the inflammation. The study showed that Manuka honey significantly reduced colonic inflammation.

 

I'm pretty wary of "alternative medicine", but it doesn't seem like this honey will hurt anything, so I may give it a try. Thanks!

 

Speaking of not hurting, did you read the exhaustive list of very serious side effects caused by Sulfasalazine, a drug prescribed by "modern" medicine for IBD, that is what I found scarey. Now there is an example of "can hurt" for you.

[Guest zaylea]

Please check out the thread Effects of Manuka honey for IBD and consider using it before you use the Imuran.

ETA: Especially if the mucousy poop is a result of the inflammation. The study showed that Manuka honey significantly reduced colonic inflammation.

 

I'm pretty wary of "alternative medicine", but it doesn't seem like this honey will hurt anything, so I may give it a try. Thanks!

 

Speaking of not hurting, did you read the exhaustive list of very serious side effects caused by Sulfasalazine, a drug prescribed by "modern" medicine for IBD, that is what I found scarey. Now there is an example of "can hurt" for you.

 

Oh believe me, I know modern medicine can be just as scary, that's why I'm reluctant to add imuran.

[tbhounds]

Imuran can and is used with GH' s--bone marrow suppression is rare. It's use will be able to reduce the pred dosage. How are your pups blood protein values now? Keep in mind that GH's do run on the lower side so your vet should take that into consideration.

You might want to ask your vet about budesonide -- that drug is used instead of pred. Might be an option for you too. Best of luck with your pup-- IBD is a pita- Pardon the pun.

Edited March 30, 2011 by tbhounds

[Guest zaylea]

Imuran can and is used with GH' s--bone marrow suppression is rare. It's use will be able to reduce the pred dosage. How are your pups blood protein values now? Keep in mind that GH's do run on the lower side so your vet should take that into consideration.

You might want to ask your vet about budesonide -- that drug is used instead of pred. Might be an option for you too. Best of luck with your pup-- IBD is a pita- Pardon the pun.

 

The last time it was checked his albumin was at 3.0 (i.e. it's at a normal level now, and it was 1.4 when he had his endoscopy). He's getting it checked again on Friday. Maybe my vet just unintentionally made the imuran sound more scary than it is. The pred is making it really hard to put weight on him, but from what I can find muscle wasting isn't a side effect of budesonide, so I will talk to her about that.

[greyhead]

We've had excellent results with budesonide. The only down side is hair loss (chest and legs), but the hair is coming back as the dosage is getting reduced. (Spencer started at 3 mg, then 2, then 1.5, and now 1 mg/day). I will just note that many vets go to prednisone, IMHO, just because that is what is usually done. They are nervous about doing things at all differently. Because vets are people and people generally don't like things that are different.

 

Spencer lost a lot of weight quickly on pred, so his vet was motivated to research budesonide. (It didn't hurt that she had an IBD dog of her own.) Her conclusion: "Budesonide seems to be where everybody ends up, so I thought we'd just start there." I had done some research of my own, and tbhounds had mentioned the virtues of budesonide, so I was entirely pleased when the vet announced her own conclusion about it. He gained weight quickly as soon as the pred was stopped, for which we were most grateful! The technical aspect of the thing is that budesonide targets the gut rather than having such broad systemic effects as pred does.

 

ETA: He was on pred briefly before his IBD diagnosis. Once we had the dx, he was "started" on budesonide instead.

Edited March 30, 2011 by greyhead

[Guest zaylea]

We've had excellent results with budesonide. The only down side is hair loss (chest and legs), but the hair is coming back as the dosage is getting reduced. (Spencer started at 3 mg, then 2, then 1.5, and now 1 mg/day). I will just note that many vets go to prednisone, IMHO, just because that is what is usually done. They are nervous about doing things at all differently. Because vets are people and people generally don't like things that are different.

 

Spencer lost a lot of weight quickly on pred, so his vet was motivated to research budesonide. (It didn't hurt that she had an IBD dog of her own.) Her conclusion: "Budesonide seems to be where everybody ends up, so I thought we'd just start there." I had done some research of my own, and tbhounds had mentioned the virtues of budesonide, so I was entirely pleased when the vet announced her own conclusion about it. He gained weight quickly as soon as the pred was stopped, for which we were most grateful! The technical aspect of the thing is that budesonide targets the gut rather than having such broad systemic effects as pred does.

 

Did you notice if Spencer would pee less on the budesonide vs the pred?

 

Batou pees a LOT since he's been on the pred, to the point where I need to leave machine-washable dog pads in the kitchen 24/7 (we live in an apt). Before, he was able to hold it all day while I was at work. Now he pees every 3 hours or so. This is somewhat of a problem because I want to rent out my 2nd bedroom, but it's sort of hard to when I have to tell people "well, the dogs are great but the boy pees like a race horse in the kitchen all the time."

[greyhead]

Oh yes, peeing is not an issue with budesonide like it is with pred. Spencer was only on the pred for about five days, so while he peed a lot more than usual, it didn't have time to develop into a peeing problem for us or him. It was the weight loss that was the big deal for Spencer, like 10 lbs in five days! That's what I mean when I say hair loss is the ONLY side effect with budesonide! (Well, the literature says something about potential "goofy behavior", according to our vet, but we never saw it.)

Edited March 30, 2011 by greyhead

[Guest zaylea]

Oh yes, peeing is not an issue with budesonide like it is with pred. Spencer was only on the pred for about five days, so while he peed a lot more than usual, it didn't have time to develop into a peeing problem for us or him. It was the weight loss that was the big deal for Spencer, like 10 lbs in five days! That's what I mean when I say hair loss is the ONLY side effect with budesonide! (Well, the literature says something about potential "goofy behavior", according to our vet, but we never saw it.)

 

That's good to hear. Weight loss for Batou is getting really worrisome too, he's VERY skinny right now. He was this big beautiful muscular 85 lbs boy when I first got him, so it's really sad to see him like this. This morning I started switching him over to Nutro Natural Choice Venison and Potato, because I'm hoping that will help him put some weight on. The z/d ultra is very expensive to begin with, and also where most dog foods he'd only need 4 - 4 1/2 cups a day, he needs at 7-8 cups a day of the z/d, and he's still struggling to maintain his weight.

[MP_the4pack]

Was the diagnosis simply on "it can't be anything else"?

 

I see you did liver tests. Did you do the liver function tests? It's different than the regular chemistry panel which tests for liver enzymes.

 

My Topaz had protein losing enteropathy. All her blood values were fine. And they also thought she had an intestinal disease at first too.

 

They did an ultrasound and found her liver very small. They did the liver function tests and found them way way way off the charts.

 

She was only 5.

[Guest zaylea]

Was the diagnosis simply on "it can't be anything else"?

 

I see you did liver tests. Did you do the liver function tests? It's different than the regular chemistry panel which tests for liver enzymes.

 

My Topaz had protein losing enteropathy. All her blood values were fine. And they also thought she had an intestinal disease at first too.

 

They did an ultrasound and found her liver very small. They did the liver function tests and found them way way way off the charts.

 

She was only 5.

 

A biopsy confirmed that it was Inflammatory Bowel Disease, after we had ruled everything else out. He had an ultrasound and x-rays, and there was nothing odd about his organs. They did liver function tests early on, among other things, because initially we thought he had gotten into some aleve and was having a delayed reaction, because it has a long half-life. A few weeks before, my newer dog Major thought it'd be a great idea to take a tote bag off the table and dig out the aleve. I caught them when I came home from work mid-day for a potty break, and rushed them over to the vet to induce vomiting (around the corner). There were no pills in his vomit. Major was hospitalized and has fully recovered. Also, both dogs were weighed when I took them in to induce vomiting. At that time, he was 10 lbs overweight, so even before he the aleve incident, he was already exhibiting PLE (in addition to the recurring diarrhea and mucous). While I thought Batou's weight gain was odd, I was so worried about Major I didn't investigate it at the time.

Edited March 30, 2011 by zaylea

[Guest zaylea]

I have never been so happy to see dog poop in my life. Yesterday morning I started Batou on the Nutro Grain-Free Venison and Potato kibble. He didn't poop much, just a very little bit of squishy poo, almost nothing. This morning, he had firm normal looking poo with no mucous! I know, it's premature to get too excited, I want to see if this will be consistent, but I've never seen him have firm poo the entire time I've had him!

[4My2Greys]

I have never been so happy to see dog poop in my life. Yesterday morning I started Batou on the Nutro Grain-Free Venison and Potato kibble. He didn't poop much, just a very little bit of squishy poo, almost nothing. This morning, he had firm normal looking poo with no mucous! I know, it's premature to get too excited, I want to see if this will be consistent, but I've never seen him have firm poo the entire time I've had him!

 

Was this the result of just the food change? If so, that is awesome! I hope it continues this way.

[Guest zaylea]

Was this the result of just the food change? If so, that is awesome! I hope it continues this way.

 

Yup, the food was the only thing that changed.

[JenniferS]

I'd love to join the Yahoo group for advice since we are looking at a possible IBD dx for my boy, but they won't accept members without a confirmed diagnosis?!?

[Guest lynne893]

Just want to send encouragement. We went through about a year of mis-diagnoses with our Timber. She had awful mucousy poop, too, sometimes with blood, and lost a lot of weight. Turns out she had alimentary lymphoma (alimentary = "of the intestines").

 

It's a horrible guessing game and so hard to see them go through all that.

 

I am SO happy for you that Batou had a semi normal- no mucous poop!! Woooo hooo!!!!

 

Good luck with your kiddos and keep us posted!

[greyhead]

Good boy, Batou!!! Keep up the good work!

[Guest 2dogs]

oh my you are telling me exactly what I am going through with my dog Natasha. Never really had good poopy. No mucus in hers, I had her on stuff for horses (foals that firmed her poop up) I have not tried tylan yet. We have not done the surgery yet. but all the symtoms are the same. did your pup have gas too? I may need to chat with you some more. If you do not mind

LIsa