What Is Going On With Kevin?

[AEB]

Please- looking for thoughts on this. I apologize because this post is going to be lengthy. This started with the thread "Kevin soiled his crate" back in January. Essentially I was feeding him too much trying to put weight on him. Now we're at what seems to be a much more normal level of food. And if I cut back by even half a cup even for a short time you can seem him start to drop weight. Or if the exercise is upped you see a change. So, I think we're ok on the food which has been cut back to 6 cups a day (split into two feedings). At each feeding he is getting 2 cups Honest kitchen (re-hydrated raw) and 1 cup raw hamburger (he is up to 80lbs from 70 when we got him and his racing weight was 77lbs so he is probably right where he needs to be. Vet says he looks good).

Well, he is peeing in his crate about 50% of the time. When he gets left it is for between 15minutes to 4.5 hours. The crate is in our bedroom next to his bed and has lots of sunlight. He even happily went in there the other day and laid down on his own for a few minutes. Should be a pleasant set-up. The shortest amount of time he has been left and peed is 2 hours. He gets walked before he gets left. He is left with a lightly stuffed Kong. Sometimes two. Sometimes his antler too. And I clean the crate with lysol every time.

He does not seem to have SA. Sometimes I take a few minutes to get my things. He knows I'm leaving. He is quiet. He's quiet when we come in and doesn't move til we open the crate. He's roaching sometimes (in his own filth). He seems pretty relaxed about being in the crate. His foster mom reported no potty problems with him. And I know she crated him (she had him 3 weeks).

He has peed in the house 3 times. Once the second day we had him he marked an old dog bed of Sadie's when he was down stairs where he should not have been in the area where Sadie had some accidents. The second time we had him a few weeks and he appeared to be marking a pile of newspapers we kept in a wire basket next to the fireplace, but he may have had to go because i caught him as he lifted his leg and he did not get much out and I got him outside right away where he peed a lot. The third time he had been in his crate eating a bully stick in the evening and he was released and the remainder of the stick removed and put away. We came back to the bedroom and he ran in a minute later and I asked if he needs out and he indicated yes. And I walked toward the door with him and found he had peed in the livingroom. So I figured it was a force of habit- getting released from the crate and to turnout so he probably has to go.

So I am going to drop a urine sample off at the vet to rule-out a UTI (but he holds it all night). I will say he does not hold it for long periods during the day. He seems to go out much more frequently than I would expect a three year old dog to go and often pees a lot when he goes.( I don't know if getting a little treat when he comes in is the incentive for going out and he just always tries to do something when goes out is the explanation or what).

I am also trying to get in touch with his former owner. A woman I have been chatting with knows him and sent him an email for me. Among many other questions I would ask is whether he soiled his crate at the track with regularity.

We're going to try to buy a video camera. I know it would answer a lot of questions. Not crazy about spending the money right now.

I have seen it suggested that some dogs who go in the crate don't go in the house. I might feel better if his track record in the house were better and I did not think he would get into trouble. Plus I worry that he will lift his leg and the mark will be the mattress or an antique. I'm not happy about the success rate in the crate but at least it's pretty contained.

Oh, and if I were to close him into a room he'd go wild. Just closing a door to the room he's in when we're here he goes crazy barking and howling. He is calm having all spaces open. As I said, crating does not get that negative reaction.

In any event, I am looking for any advice, guidance, suggestions. He has ruined all the crate beds we had for him. Now we're washing blankets constantly. And I am waiting for him to lift his leg and really make a mess. Plus it's just very stressful to leave and not know what you're coming home to. Can we ever transition him to being without a crate if he goes 50% of the time in the crate? In short, what is going on here? What am I doing wrong? Ideas, suggestions?? Edited for typos and spacing.

Edited February 17, 2011 by AEB

[Guest Stripeyfan]

If he does not have SA I would say this is NOT just behavioural - esp if he's having to go out all the time - and you need to get a pee sample to the vet asap. Last Thurs Kelly started needing to go out a LOT in the evenings, and when he went out he was peeing for ages. Finally, yesterday, he peed in the house. I know for sure he does not have SA as it took our neighbours 6 months to realise we even had a dog! Plus I think you would see other things like chewing/scratching etc. We took Kelly to the vet tonight with a sample and he has cystitis. Apart from one night (Mon) he was holding it all night and had no other symptoms, and was peeing normally during the day until yesterday.

 

I hope you can get this sorted out, and if the pee sample doesn't show anything it might be worth getting bloodwork to check his kidney function checked too just to make sure nothing's going on. Also, if you're not already, try using an enzymatic cleaner to get rid of the pee, as this will eliminate any smell that can otherwise still be detected by an ultra-sensitive canine nose!

 

Good luck.

[Batmom]

Urinalysis is a good start.

 

Bloodwork if the urinalysis doesn't show anything.

How much does he drink every day?

 

Does he get taken out (with supervision, so you know he's done something) immediately before you leave and immediately when you come home?

 

I have known more than one dog who needed to go out immediately after a meal, and then again @ 1.5 - 2 hours later. If I was going to be away during that window, I adjusted feeding time accordingly so we could get the 2nd out in.

 

Some dogs fuss/get anxious in the crate and don't fuss when not in the crate. Anxiety can lead to "OMG, I have to pee right now!" Not always terribly obvious if you have a fusser. I do agree about the closed doors -- lots of dogs go nuts behind one.

[Laurenbiz]

He sounds somewhat like my Bernie boy, who has bad SA. We got Bernie this past October. Just like Kevin, we received reports that Bernie did not have accidents at his foster home. We left him alone in his crate on Day 1 for less than an hour when we went to grab fast food for dinner. We came back to tinkle on the floor outside his crate. And, it never stopped.

 

We've done crate training, alone training, other behavior modification exercises, DAP collar/diffuser/spray, etc., Rescue Remedy - everything. (No, really, my list goes on and on and on and on....) Because Bernie either urinates and/or defecates when he is alone probably at least 90% of the time, we've finally started him on Clomipramine recently. He seems to be less anxious, but we still come home to potties in the house sometimes. I know he is still getting used to the medication.

 

So, here is my guess. I can actually see that Bernie's seratonin levels in his brain are more in sync than what they were prior. His shaking, panting, trembling, howling are now non-existent. Yet, he is still urinating in the house sometimes while he's alone. But, based off his behavior as I leave the house, (he's just resting on a dog bed and does not have a care in the world,) I wouldn't say that he has S.A. But I know he does.

 

Like you said, Kevin doesn't seem to have S.A. But from your info, I get the idea that he is only urinating in the house/crate when he is alone? To me, that signals something!

 

Good idea with the urine sample to rule out a UTI - you never know.

 

You've only had to clean up 3 tinkle spots in your house!?...You're a novice! (Bernie can't be crated...go figure...!)

 

Alone training, alone training, alone training!

 

Good luck! I'm interested to see what other posters have to say.

[Tallgreydogmom]

Have you thought about changing his food? I didn't read if you have had his blood work done and a complete physical. Some greyhounds can be rather slender, what weight did he race at?

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Sorry, I don't know what could be the matter, UA is a good start. All I can say is BELLY BAND.

[AEB]

How much does he drink every day?

 

Does he get taken out (with supervision, so you know he's done something) immediately before you leave and immediately when you come home?

 

Some dogs fuss/get anxious in the crate and don't fuss when not in the crate. Anxiety can lead to "OMG, I have to pee right now!" Not always terribly obvious if you have a fusser. I do agree about the closed doors -- lots of dogs go nuts behind one.

 

I do not know how much he drinks. When I change his water there is not much gone from his bowl. So over the course of the day he is not drinking excessive amounts. And yes, as I said he gets walked right before I go. So I know he just went.

 

And, I have not ruled out SA. I just think he does not appear to have it. But I am not sure. I can hear him howl when I leave and it's been a while but he is not crated. If he's crated no howls. No barking. Nothing. Quiet. I have come back in for my phone or other things. And he just looks at me. I would think if he had SA he would jump-up. And as I said, when we come home we get little reaction. he just looks at us.

 

Forgive me, but I'm going to try to keep adding responses to other posts and coming back to this one to edit- not sure if I can do that . . .

Edited February 17, 2011 by AEB

[Guest IrskasMom]

When I go walk my Morty , I usualy count how many times he Pees . 4- 6 times he has to have in Order to empty.We are not going home otherwise. When we go to the Park its on every Trashcan and every Corner ,so 100 times. He does not need to go out again for the next 5-6 Hours.

Edited February 17, 2011 by IrskasMom

[AEB]

How much does he drink every day?

 

Does he get taken out (with supervision, so you know he's done something) immediately before you leave and immediately when you come home?

 

Some dogs fuss/get anxious in the crate and don't fuss when not in the crate. Anxiety can lead to "OMG, I have to pee right now!" Not always terribly obvious if you have a fusser. I do agree about the closed doors -- lots of dogs go nuts behind one.

 

I could not further modify the other post-

Stripeyfan- I have seen the trouble Kelly was having. I'm glad you got an answer. I will make sure to also wipe-down with nature's miracle. And I have thought of the kidney function question as we lost Sadie to renal failure. And, I hate to say that this question crossed my mind early on with Kevin because he does urinate a lot. But I figured he might be getting settled-in and also adjusting to his food. Plus, I want to avoid an accident so I offer him the chance to go out pretty frequently. He doesn't refuse too often.

 

Talldogmom- he raced at 77lbs and is 80lbs now. He was 70 when he came to us. His food, I went over what we feed him in my OP, but it is a wet food. It is a possible contributor. Dry anything gives his wicked gas and the big D though. Even a tiny amount- 1/8 cup over the course of a day!

 

Bernie's mom- he has peed in the house marking twice right in front of us. And peed in the next room because he probably had to go once. We were home all three times. If we are not home he is crated. He pees about 50% of the time. See above for my description of the incident and also how relaxed he is in his crate. He will just hang out in there with his treats. He gets fed his stinky treats and high value treats in there.

 

PS- his foster mom wrote me back- he never peed in their house. He had the big D once but once he went to hamburger and potato (RX by vet) he was fine. And he did get left loose. No accidents.

[GeorgeofNE]

I feel your pain, I really do.

 

Sounds medical to me.

 

I would put a belly band on him if he were mind until you get it sorted out.

 

Good luck!

[AEB]

I feel your pain, I really do.

 

Sounds medical to me.

 

I would put a belly band on him if he were mind until you get it sorted out.

 

Good luck!

 

Any recommendations as to what to look for in a belly band or where to get them? He's my first boy and I know nothing of belly bands other than reading mentions of them here and there.

[Laurenbiz]

I got the belly band for Bernie through KV Vet Supply. I'm not sure the exact URL - but you can find them if you Google them.

 

KV Vet has always gotten my order shipped out within 1 business day, and I've never had problems. I'm always happy to shop with them.

 

I believe his is called a 'Male Doggy Wrap' or 'Male Canine Wrap' or something along those lines. I took a piece of string to measure around his groin so I knew what size to get.

 

[Guest mcsheltie]

These are the best. The ones without elastic leak - link

 

Believe it or not the Shelties and Greyhounds wear the same size. I was shocked! Mine are a Size 5. Since Kevin is a big boy do measure. He may be a 6.

 

Buy the highest absorbency incontinence pads. The super ultra... blah blah

[cleptogrey]

if he was having so much trouble w/ kibbles maybe he needed some flagyl to clear things up. do mention the problem w/ the kibble to your vet, bring in a urine sample and also the ingredients and protien, fat, fiber ammounts of the food you are feeding him. it could be taxing his kidneys. but lay everything out on the table w/ your vet. also bring his turn-out exercise schedule and water intake(measure, don't let him drink out of the toilet bowl). so he/she can weigh all the variables.

 

good luck in seeing if there is a medical reason for the urination- prostate or a tumor on it??. i have had male dogs most of my life, un-neutered terriers, un-neutered salukis- only one terrier had marking problems that started at age 6, he was checked for a tumor on his prostate.some vets might try some hormones to balance things, but your dog is neutered....mmmmm. have you also consulted w/ a trainer? can you possibly keep him on lead at home to stop the marking on items?

Edited February 18, 2011 by cleptogrey

[AEB]

if he was having so much trouble w/ kibbles maybe he needed some flagyl to clear things up. do mention the problem w/ the kibble to your vet, bring in a urine sample and also the ingredients and protien, fat, fiber ammounts of the food you are feeding him. it could be taxing his kidneys. but lay everything out on the table w/ your vet. also bring his turn-out exercise schedule and water intake(measure, don't let him drink out of the toilet bowl). so he/she can weigh all the variables.

 

good luck in seeing if there is a medical reason for the urination- prostate or a tumor on it??. i have had male dogs most of my life, un-neutered terriers, un-neutered salukis- only one terrier had marking problems that started at age 6, he was checked for a tumor on his prostate.some vets might try some hormones to balance things, but your dog is neutered....mmmmm. have you also consulted w/ a trainer? can you possibly keep him on lead at home to stop the marking on items?

 

He has only marked twice in the house and also had one big puddle. We've had him 10 weeks. I provided that info for background. But I think what I have is NOT a housetraining problem but a crate training, SA, or medical problem.

 

I will mention the kibble problem. And see where to go pending the results of the UA. And I will start measuring-out his water tomorrow.

 

I will also look into the belly bands until we figure-out what is going on-thanks for the suggestions everyone.

[AEB]

if he was having so much trouble w/ kibbles maybe he needed some flagyl to clear things up. do mention the problem w/ the kibble to your vet,

 

Could you please explain the connection between yeast and problems with kibble? I have not heard of this. Thanks!

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Stripeyfan- I have seen the trouble Kelly was having. I'm glad you got an answer. I will make sure to also wipe-down with nature's miracle. And I have thought of the kidney function question as we lost Sadie to renal failure. And, I hate to say that this question crossed my mind early on with Kevin because he does urinate a lot. But I figured he might be getting settled-in and also adjusting to his food. Plus, I want to avoid an accident so I offer him the chance to go out pretty frequently. He doesn't refuse too often.

 

Sorry to hear about Sadie. Our vet did say that if she thought Kelly's problem was kidney-related, she'd expect to see other symptoms - which you will know all about, unfortunately - BEFORE any urinary problems appeared. It sounds as if Kevin's otherwise ok from your first post so I will keep everything crossed it's not that!

 

If I've read everything right, I see you've not had him long - did he come straight from the kennel/track and was he wormed before you got him? Because one other thing that crossed my mind was whether he's been checked for parasites. When Kelly came to us he had not been wormed by his trainer for 18 months (no idea why) and, although we did it immediately, he had such a huge burden already it made no difference. As well as triggering his IBD they also caused bladder irritation, which made him pee a lot - once, in the car! Basically the larvae were dormant in his body and the stress of coming into a new environment 'activated' them. The vet found roundworm and we think he had hookworm, too.

 

So it might be worth getting a fecal check done – although bear in mind that hookworm, in particular, don't always show up. They are really nasty, insidious things and if he does have them he'll probably need multiple treatments - we had to worm Kelly monthly for 6 months with Drontal and Panacur to get rid of his.

 

Given that he has a possible sensitivity to certain foods as well – which COULD be an indicator of parasites, too; the damage Kelly sustained to his GI tract means he can't tolerate ANY dog food and has to have a home-cooked diet – this still sounds like a medical issue to me, so I hope you can find an answer to it soon.

[cleptogrey]

if he was having so much trouble w/ kibbles maybe he needed some flagyl to clear things up. do mention the problem w/ the kibble to your vet,

 

Could you please explain the connection between yeast and problems with kibble? I have not heard of this. Thanks!

for some reason when i initially read your post i thought you were originally having trouble w/ stool as well. flagyl, clears up intestinal irritations. quite often pups can come off the track w/ lots of intestential bugs.

 

but measuring water, having your vet look at the entire pic should help. best of luck.

[AEB]

Stripeyfan- I have seen the trouble Kelly was having. I'm glad you got an answer. I will make sure to also wipe-down with nature's miracle. And I have thought of the kidney function question as we lost Sadie to renal failure. And, I hate to say that this question crossed my mind early on with Kevin because he does urinate a lot. But I figured he might be getting settled-in and also adjusting to his food. Plus, I want to avoid an accident so I offer him the chance to go out pretty frequently. He doesn't refuse too often.

 

Sorry to hear about Sadie. Our vet did say that if she thought Kelly's problem was kidney-related, she'd expect to see other symptoms - which you will know all about, unfortunately - BEFORE any urinary problems appeared. It sounds as if Kevin's otherwise ok from your first post so I will keep everything crossed it's not that!

 

If I've read everything right, I see you've not had him long - did he come straight from the kennel/track and was he wormed before you got him? Because one other thing that crossed my mind was whether he's been checked for parasites. When Kelly came to us he had not been wormed by his trainer for 18 months (no idea why) and, although we did it immediately, he had such a huge burden already it made no difference. As well as triggering his IBD they also caused bladder irritation, which made him pee a lot - once, in the car! Basically the larvae were dormant in his body and the stress of coming into a new environment 'activated' them. The vet found roundworm and we think he had hookworm, too.

 

So it might be worth getting a fecal check done – although bear in mind that hookworm, in particular, don't always show up. They are really nasty, insidious things and if he does have them he'll probably need multiple treatments - we had to worm Kelly monthly for 6 months with Drontal and Panacur to get rid of his.

 

Given that he has a possible sensitivity to certain foods as well – which COULD be an indicator of parasites, too; the damage Kelly sustained to his GI tract means he can't tolerate ANY dog food and has to have a home-cooked diet – this still sounds like a medical issue to me, so I hope you can find an answer to it soon.

 

Thank you. Her loss was a tremendous blow. And her kidney issues were discovered by chance with some other bloodwork. We managed it for two years before we lost her. She was 13.

 

As for Kevin, he was in a foster home off the track and he was wormed. I will discuss the parasites with the vet's office as well. I have not seen any symptoms, but I would not know what to look for, aside from the big D, but I assumed that was him just not doing well with dry food (it seems none of the dogs I know about with this group do well off the track with dry and many end-up on the hamburger/potato diet). I am going to have to write all of this down!

[AEB]

if he was having so much trouble w/ kibbles maybe he needed some flagyl to clear things up. do mention the problem w/ the kibble to your vet,

 

Could you please explain the connection between yeast and problems with kibble? I have not heard of this. Thanks!

for some reason when i initially read your post i thought you were originally having trouble w/ stool as well. flagyl, clears up intestinal irritations. quite often pups can come off the track w/ lots of intestential bugs.

 

but measuring water, having your vet look at the entire pic should help. best of luck.

 

Well, I tried to give ALL the info- surely too much!! So I told of his troubles with trying to adjust to kibble. You did not imagine that. We tried to transition him to a part kibble diet (Orijen) and even adding 1/8 cup per day resulted in awful gas and he had one day of the big D. We tried for a couple weeks and never made it beyond 1/4 cup. We could have powered Earth with that gas. It just did not seem to agree. We tried another kibble for a couple weeks (Innova). Again, very small amount. 1/8 cup over the course of a whole day and he eats a lot! Same result. if he gets 1/2 a milk bone he blows the house up with gas. If he gets more than a couple tiny dry treats during the day- same. Anything dry it's awful. So, we just stick to the raw and he's good. NO GAS!! Good poop.

[AEB]

I want to edit my OP to add an update, but am apparently too inept to figure-out how to do this. I don't see an "edit" button so it's too much for me!

 

Anyway, the vet says that Kevin's urine is clean and that the specific gravity looks good. So he is not concerned regarding kidney issues either. He think it's behavioral.

 

So, if it is behavioral and he has SA, why doesn't he pee when crated for only 15 minutes or 45 minutes? Why 2 hours- 4.5 hours? What happens during a longer period that causes a problem behavior? Could he be panicking then?

 

We're looking at videocamera reviews to find a reasonably priced one that is well-regarded. Maybe we'll get more answers. We're also going to get three baby gates for all kitchen entrances. And we're going to really Kevin-proof the kitchen. And start leaving him in the kitchen, muzzled. And see if he does better. Tonight I'm ordering a belly band.

 

All of this might tell us that he gets fussy and pees. And it might prevent more pee in the crate. But It does not get to the bottom of it. (Unless he does magically well in the kitchen and has no more problems).

 

So, if it appears to be SA do we try another grey? What if that does not help? Then we have two messing?

 

Any other ideas on this?

 

PS- As to his food volume, we are seeing a bit more rib lately even on the 6 cups.

[Batmom]

Anyway, the vet says that Kevin's urine is clean and that the specific gravity looks good. So he is not concerned regarding kidney issues either. He think it's behavioral.

...

Any other ideas on this?

 

I would still be interested in knowing how much he drinks. And it would be a good idea to get bloodwork, just in case.

 

I do like the camera idea, because then you could see what happens when. It could be, he works on his food items, then ... he's still awake, what to do, what to do, dang, awake, gotta pee.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Look into renting a camera. You'd only need it for a few days.

[AEB]

 

I would still be interested in knowing how much he drinks. And it would be a good idea to get bloodwork, just in case.

 

I do like the camera idea, because then you could see what happens when. It could be, he works on his food items, then ... he's still awake, what to do, what to do, dang, awake, gotta pee.

 

I measured-out his water this morning and will see what is left before changing it in the morning.

 

What bloodwork would you suggest? Vet seemed to think if the SG looked good the kidneys would not be taxed. Hubby talked to him.

[Batmom]

I would want a CBC and chemistry. SG is a useful indicator of kidney function, but you can have a good SG and still have kidney impairment, infection, etc.