Hypothyroidism

[tbhounds]

And please let's not send evey hound running to the drug cabinet for supplementation either. Perhaps I'm simplifying things but, if every hound that had tested lower T4 , FT4 and slightly lower or normal cTSH values (which you must admit many, many do) and display a clinical symptom (gee- my hound sleeps all day) the pharmacy's would be thrilled. I do believe that each and ever dog needs to be evaluated as an indiviual - I'm sure you would not argue that point.

[greyhead]

I do believe that each and ever dog needs to be evaluated as an indiviual - I'm sure you would not argue that point.

No, that was exactly the point I was making.

 

But someone -- I hope not you -- flat out told a poster recently that her dog "is not hypothyroid." And based on very little information that I could see. And that's just one example of the kinds of posts I had in mind in starting this conversation.

 

ETA: Here is a link to a current New Yorker article that explores in a more or less readable way the newer findings about research being unreliable. It's called "The Truth Wears Off: Is There Something Wrong with the Scientific Method?" The last sentence is something to the effect that not all truths can be proved, and not everything that's proved is true. I hope you'll read this article. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer?currentPage=all

Edited January 6, 2011 by greyhead

[greyhead]

In response to my posting the link to the New Yorker article -- http://www.newyorker...currentPage=all -- in another thread, Batmom had the following reaction in that thread, which I quote below. I'm moving over to this thread, which I started to provide a home to this kind of discussion.

I've read it. It doesn't really speak to the issue of why certain vets ignore well-established research that serves no special interest and for which there has been no decline effect. Rather, there's been the opposite of a decline effect, as well as a steady accumulation of data regarding the efficacy of various test and analysis methods.

The declining effect won't be found if the research isn't replicated enough, which it won't be as long as the current state of research is accepted as absolutely true. The way things work, as mentioned in the article, contrary findings will tend not to be published. But the declining effect is only one aspect of a bigger problem, as the last sentence of the article states:

 

"The decline effect is troubling because it reminds us how difficult it is to prove anything. We like to pretend that our experiments define the truth for us. But that's often not the case. Just because an idea is true doesn't mean it can be proved. And just because an idea can be proved doesn't mean it's true. When the experiments are done, we still have to choose what to believe. ♦"

 

"Certain vets" -- and owners like me -- ignore "well-established research" because they know that it's not necessarily good research, the dog in question may be an outlier from what's usual, and at the end of the day it's not about the numbers as much as the interpretation of the numbers.

 

But it all starts with whether there have been enough subjects studied in the first place to be able to make broad generalizations about a whole population. I'm sure MSU hasn't spent 40 years, as was mentioned in the other thread, studying large numbers of greyhounds who retired and became pets, for instance, because greyhounds haven't been adopted on a large scale nearly that long. Studies conducted on racers may not be relevant to later stages of greyhound life as pets. Studies conducted on newly-retired dogs may not be relevant to the physical condition of dogs that have been retired for a year or two. And studies on retired dogs in kennels may not describe the physical condition of dogs who have been living as pets in homes.

 

So there are lots of good reasons for vets to treat the individual dog in front of them and not rely entirely on the ranges and recommendations of MSU. Dee's Goldie is a perfect example. (Here's her thread: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/266044-goldie-seemed-a-little-better-last-night-update-post-one/ Her thyroid hormones were even lower than usual greyhound norms, and yet MSU said she wasn't hypothyroid because her TSH wasn't elevated enough for their standards and she didn't show thyroid antibodies. Goldie was close to being put down before Dr. Dodds and another local vet came in with a different interpretation of the numbers than MSU's.

 

The reason I keep engaging in this argument is that it breaks my heart to think of how many greyhounds will suffer with miniscule amounts of thyroid hormone while we throw around words like "research" and "science" as if those were unassailable guarantees of truth. They are not.

Edited January 9, 2011 by greyhead

[Batmom]

I'm not willing to turn the clock back 40+ years, nor to turn my back on science. Dogs die when you do that.

 

By her own description, Dee's dog improved significantly before she got a single dose of thyroid meds. The dog was taking several other meds known to have debilitating side effects and had an undiagnosed UTI on top of it. Each time Dee backed off the other meds, the dog improved. When the other meds resumed, the dog deteriorated again. Read the thread.

[Guest Energy11]

In response to my posting the link to the New Yorker article -- http://www.newyorker...currentPage=all -- in another thread, Batmom had the following reaction in that thread, which I quote below. I'm moving over to this thread, which I started to provide a home to this kind of discussion.

I've read it. It doesn't really speak to the issue of why certain vets ignore well-established research that serves no special interest and for which there has been no decline effect. Rather, there's been the opposite of a decline effect, as well as a steady accumulation of data regarding the efficacy of various test and analysis methods.

The declining effect won't be found if the research isn't replicated enough, which it won't be as long as the current state of research is accepted as absolutely true. The way things work, as mentioned in the article, contrary findings will tend not to be published. But the declining effect is only one aspect of a bigger problem, as the last sentence of the article states:

 

"The decline effect is troubling because it reminds us how difficult it is to prove anything. We like to pretend that our experiments define the truth for us. But that's often not the case. Just because an idea is true doesn't mean it can be proved. And just because an idea can be proved doesn't mean it's true. When the experiments are done, we still have to choose what to believe. ♦"

 

"Certain vets" -- and owners like me -- ignore "well-established research" because they know that it's not necessarily good research, the dog in question may be an outlier from what's usual, and at the end of the day it's not about the numbers as much as the interpretation of the numbers.

 

But it all starts with whether there have been enough subjects studied in the first place to be able to make broad generalizations about a whole population. I'm sure MSU hasn't spent 40 years, as was mentioned in the other thread, studying large numbers of greyhounds who retired and became pets, for instance, because greyhounds haven't been adopted on a large scale nearly that long. Studies conducted on racers may not be relevant to later stages of greyhound life as pets. Studies conducted on newly-retired dogs may not be relevant to the physical condition of dogs that have been retired for a year or two. And studies on retired dogs in kennels may not describe the physical condition of dogs who have been living as pets in homes.

 

So there are lots of good reasons for vets to treat the individual dog in front of them and not rely entirely on the ranges and recommendations of MSU. Dee's Goldie is a perfect example. She seemed close to being put down. At least with a thyroid correction she is doing much better and one can see and treat what's left. And the reason I keep engaging in this argument is that it breaks my heart to think of how many greyhounds will suffer with miniscule amounts of thyroid hormone while we throw around words like "research" and "science" as if those were unassailable guarantees of truth. They are not.

 

 

... And, it is BECAUSE I do not except the first or second opinions I get. (*based in a lot of experience, mostly in human medicine*) ... that I contacted Dr. Dodds , and sent her the MSU data http://www.hemopet.org/services.html. Why not give My Goldie, OR other dogs a chance, if it can be corrected by a small daily pill? Dr. Jean Dodds, and David Wolf of NGAP http://www.ngap.org/greyhound-health-ignorance-is-bliss-y487.html seem to disagree with Dr. Couto, whom I greatly respect .... I would advise anyone to get a second or third, or maybe a fourth opinion, and go from there. Don't just take your vet's word as "gospel!: ... I didn't. If I did, Goldie wouldn't be here now. Dee (retired Paramedic and vet tech) and my Five!

Edited January 9, 2011 by Energy11

[seeh2o]

... And, it is BECAUSE I do not except the first or second opinions I get. (*based in a lot of experience, mostly in human medicine*) ... that I contacted Dr. Dodds , and sent her the MSU data http://www.hemopet.org/services.html. Why not give My Goldie, OR other dogs a chance, if it can be corrected by a small daily pill? Dr. Jean Dodds, and David Wolf of NGAP http://www.ngap.org/greyhound-health-ignorance-is-bliss-y487.html seem to disagree with Dr. Couto, whom I greatly respect .... I would advise anyone to get a second or third, or maybe a fourth opinion, and go from there. Don't just take your vet's word as "gospel!: ... I didn't. If I did, Goldie wouldn't be here now. Dee (retired Paramedic and vet tech) and my Five!

 

Amen, sistah!

[tbhounds]

Just so I understand (with all due respect). Are you making the claim that Goldie is improving because you started the soloxine (granted it's only been for a few days) and it has nothing to do with reducing the pheno (we all know the lethargy associated with that drug). Have the evening episodes stopped entirely? Soloxine will make a dog's attitude (unhealthy or well) appear brighter and they will usually drop some weight- doesn't mean you have solved the underlining problem-- you have covered it up. Cocaine would make me more alert, give me more energy and I would most likely loose weight too. Just throwing this out there. Dee- you never said what Dr Coutos opinion was. Please don't misunderstand my post-- I never want to see an illl hound-- I would drive around the world for one of mine-- I just think we need to consider all other angles.

Edited January 9, 2011 by tbhounds

[Guest Energy11]

Just so I understand (with all due respect). Are you making the claim that Goldie is improving because you started the soloxine (granted it's only been for a few days) and it has nothing to do with reducing the pheno (we all know the lethargy associated with that drug). Have the evening episodes stopped entirely? Soloxine will make a dog's attitude (unhealthy or well) appear brighter and they will usually drop some weight- doesn't mean you have solved the underlining problem-- you have covered it up. Cocaine would make me more alert, give me more energy and I would most likely loose weight too. Just throwing this out there. Dee- you never said what Dr Coutos opinion was. Please don't misunderstand my post-- I never want to see an illl hound-- I would drive around the world for one of mine-- I just think we need to consider all other angles.

 

Hey there!

I truly think, of course, as YOU know ... Goldie is "brighter..." due to being off the Pred and Pheno. NO, the evening "episodes" have not improved a lot, BUT, to be honest, she IS better. I am NOT claiming anything due to the Soloxine at this point... all I am saying is ... the vet here told me she thought Goldie had a brain lesion ... she still might, AND the nighttime "episodes" were most likely because of it ... I wanted to give this girl a chance, so I did send the MSU results to Dr. Dodds. ... I AM HOPING that it is Goldie's thyroid causing this ... that is all I CAN do! I like that TWO vets, one being Dr. Dodds, ... thinks that HYPOTHYROID could very well be causing Goldie's problems ... if it isn't ... well, we tried, right? DR COUTO... whom I have met many times, and who knows who I am .. .NO .. HE SAYS ... Goldie's thyroid is fine. SO... TO BE HONEST ... WHO KNOWS????????????????????????

 

I am willing to give the Soloxine, AND ... remember, I am still waiting to start Goldie on Anipryl, too ... I ordered it from Drs. Foster and Smiths pet pharmacy, and it was filled by Dr. Beau ... scheduled to come tomorrow, BUT ... probably NOT ... our weather is scheduled to be HORRID! "((

 

What am I thinking???? Well, I am willing to TRY the Soloxine and the Anipryl before loading this dog with Pheno and Pred... and "presuming" based on the symptoms, that she has a brain tumor ...

 

Hypothyroid could be causing Goldie's symptoms, as you know .. or, maybe not ... but, it is worth at try, ... AND, with the Anipryl, too! I just am interested that TWO vets say this old gal is hypothyroid ... Thyroid can cause sooo many problems. I thank you soo much for your concern for Goldie, as well. :-))

[robinw]

Are you guys all ignoring all of the research that states that hypothyroidism is way over diagnosed in greyhounds?

 

ETA: Here is a link to a current New Yorker article that explores in a more or less readable way the newer findings about research being unreliable. It's called "The Truth Wears Off: Is There Something Wrong with the Scientific Method?" The last sentence is something to the effect that not all truths can be proved, and not everything that's proved is true. I hope you'll read this article. http://www.newyorker...currentPage=all

I think you can make that claim about almost any kind of research in a money making industry. That is certainly no reason to discount everything else out there that suggests that hypothyroidism is over diagnosed in greyhounds. Personally I think all of those hypothyroid talk is dangerous and is putting these dogs at risk.

[Guest Energy11]

Me??? I am willing to take a chance on Goldie, based on ONE EXPERT and one "regular" vet. Beats the odds ... which WAS going to be ... sending her to

"The Bridge" a few weeks ago. MAYBE nothihng will come of the thyroid supplementation, BUT ... it at least gives Goldie a chance. AND, again, Dr. Jean Dodds also suggested Anipryl for "Caniine Cognitive Disorder" ... "Doggie Alzheimers ..." Maybe, with the combination of thyroid supplementation AND and Anipryl, it will work for Goldie. If not ... I tried.

 

The debate about OVER OR UNDER diagnosed hypothyroidism, ... ??? I am interested, but, in our case, ... I don't care! I am giving Goldie all the chances she deserves ...

 

 

[robinw]

Me??? I am willing to take a chance on Goldie, based on ONE EXPERT and one "regular" vet. Beats the odds ... which WAS going to be ... sending her to

"The Bridge" a few weeks ago. MAYBE nothihng will come of the thyroid supplementation, BUT ... it at least gives Goldie a chance. AND, again, Dr. Jean Dodds also suggested Anipryl for "Caniine Cognitive Disorder" ... "Doggie Alzheimers ..." Maybe, with the combination of thyroid supplementation AND and Anipryl, it will work for Goldie. If not ... I tried.

 

The debate about OVER OR UNDER diagnosed hypothyroidism, ... ??? I am interested, but, in our case, ... I don't care! I am giving Goldie all the chances she deserves ...

 

 

 

Actually, I wasn't referring to you . I understand what you are doing and how important it is to get answers.

[Guest Energy11]

Me??? I am willing to take a chance on Goldie, based on ONE EXPERT and one "regular" vet. Beats the odds ... which WAS going to be ... sending her to

"The Bridge" a few weeks ago. MAYBE nothihng will come of the thyroid supplementation, BUT ... it at least gives Goldie a chance. AND, again, Dr. Jean Dodds also suggested Anipryl for "Caniine Cognitive Disorder" ... "Doggie Alzheimers ..." Maybe, with the combination of thyroid supplementation AND and Anipryl, it will work for Goldie. If not ... I tried.

 

The debate about OVER OR UNDER diagnosed hypothyroidism, ... ??? I am interested, but, in our case, ... I don't care! I am giving Goldie all the chances she deserves ...

 

 

 

As my former vet/tmployer, and good friend would say ... "no worries!" :-)))

 

 

 

Actually, I wasn't referring to you . I understand what you are doing and how important it is to get answers.