Grain Free Foods And Behavior

[greytlucy]

I apologize this isn't greyhound related. I find the Poodle board people aren't particularly helpful on a lot of stuff...and a majority of them feed raw so aren't too helpful on kibble questions....I do have a greyhound though so hopefully you don't mind me asking a question about my other dog.

 

I have a 7.5 month old standard poodle pup. We've had him since he was 12 weeks old. He's been a handful. Yes, he's a puppy but it's not all just standard puppy stuff. He's really really reactive and hyper aware. He's had several health issues along the way that have likely contributed to this(he gets pretty honery when in pain we've learned): base lower canines that punctured the roof of his mouth, a UTI, several ear infections. We're working on getting him sorted out.....

 

I'd been feeding him Innova which is what the breeder tells me her dogs have always done well on. It seems to agree with him digestively and he's in good weight on it but with the recurring ear infections we're battling I'm beginning to consider allergies. I've also read that cutting the carbs can help with reactive and hyper dogs.

 

So....I started switching him over to Acana Wild Prairie about ten days ago. I chose this one as the proteins were poultry and fish based(i'd tried him on a lamb based food previously that didn't agree with him so thought i'd stick with the poultry and see if it was the grains in the innova that might be causing the ear trouble). I also chose Acana as it's among the lowest protein in the grain frees at 33%. I'm not comfortable with the high protein percentages in some of the grain frees given his young age and that he's still growing.

 

We're at a 50/50 mix right now. I've been holding there for the last several days. Digestively he's doing really well on the food....however, his reactivity is getting worse and worse. I haven't been able to get him settle outside his crate at all the last couple days...he's never been this bad. Even tethered on a leash he's on full alert and ready to react to any slight change anywhere in the environment. (he gets tons of exercise and starts an advanced obedience class on monday so this isn't an issue of no exercise or training)

 

I'm wondering if the food related to this? Can grain free go the other way? Rather than removing the carbs and leading to less hyperness can it amp them up??

[brandimom]

No apologies necessary for posting on another breed. I think a lot of GT folks have other dogs (including myself as I am two afghans and one greyhound) and we are here for the dogs whether it is a greyhound or another breed. I have been giving my three dogs Acana Pacifica for almost a year and did not notice any changes that you are referring to in this post.

[TheFullHouse]

I've not had those issues with my allergy girl, we were dealing with itchy skin and ear infections and switching her to Taste Of The Wild fixed our problems. She has not had another ear infection since switching her to grain free.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I've never seen behavioral changes in response to a food switch. Maybe it's a coincidence?

 

I've heard some people say that excess carbs can make kids hyper, but not the other way around.

[Guest Giselle]

I honestly think... as long as your dog is being fed a proper diet that meets his nutritional needs, diet is the *least* of your concerns.

 

Your dog may be in an advanced obedience class, but that does not mean your problem is NOT training. It is. During Ivy's worst years, she was in advanced agility classes and earned 2 legs towards her Rally novice. But was she reactive/aggressive? OH yeah.

 

What may be happening is that your dog is entering another fear period (about 4-8 or 6-9 months, I've read). This is why he's more intensely aware to the environment. Unfortunately, it just doesn't matter if your dog is highly advanced in obedience class. What matters is how you utilize it in your daily life. Are you doing calmness/impulse control exercises? These exercises teach your dog to control his emotions in the real world- not just in class. It can involve playing tug vigorously in public, and then releasing as soon as you say "Give" (think of it like a Schutzhund exercise). It can involve prolonged eye contact while you're walking along the fence of a dog park. It can involve rapid Sits in front of you as you practice in a bustling business district. It can involve prolonged "sit's" and "stay's" in a busy park area. It happens all the time, every day, everywhere. All of these exercises (not walking through a door until you say "okay!", not eating his dinner until you give the release, etc.) are meant to teach your dog to control his emotions and that you will provide stability. For more tips and videos on impulse control exercises, feel free to ask! If you can nip it in the bud now, you will be doing you and your pup a huge favor! He's still young; he's got time to learn how to control himself before his fear and anxiety turns aggressive.

 

Also, is he on a NILIF type of program? My mentor likes to call it "Learn to Earn" (more politically correct, I guess, haha!). Anyways, this is a really important aspect of training for fearful/anxious dogs. It makes general impulse control training easier overall, too...

Edited November 27, 2010 by Giselle

[greytlucy]

Look, I don't mean to be argumentative but this is not a training issue. Despite our best attempt at having done our homework on breeders when we brought him home, we have a VERY high strung standard poodle, it seems it's coming off the sire's line. We do a LOT of training with him in our day to day lives. He's been on a NILIF program since the day he came home. He gets TONS of exercise. He's being socialized constantly to other dogs, people and situations. He's very anxious and yes he started in a fear period about a month ago. This past week he's been getting worse each day and today he is completely out of control. I can call him off his shadow chasing and work him through a series of exercises, play with him, put him in a long down stay, give him a bully stick or his favorite toy but as soon as he's released he IMMEDIATELY goes back to pacing and searching for shadows. The more we try to solve this issue with all the standard methods the worse it gets.

[Batmom]

he IMMEDIATELY goes back to pacing and searching for shadows. The more we try to solve this issue with all the standard methods the worse it gets.

 

Need to consult with a DVM with a behavioral specialty. He's young but that behavior sounds like a neurological disorder, possibly with a visual component.

 

The food might have an impact, or it might not. I'd feed him what he does well on. If that includes some grains, who cares?

[DesiRayMom]

I work with a lady who is a "poodle person." She has ALWAYS had at least one poodle in her life, so is very experienced. Two years

ago, she got a toy poodle puppy, & the problems began.....What all had perceived to be "high strung" was obviously more than that.

 

She's a vet tech, & so is privy to a lot of professional boards & very into research. After months of training, testing, etc, she

& vets finally came up with some kind of liver disorder (sorry, a lot of the technical stuff kind of went over my head).

The gist of it was that the liver wasn't filtering out toxins like it should, & research showed that the build-up of toxins could

actually affect the brain.

 

She's on supplements & a vegetarian diet now & doing a little better, but it seems to be a life-long battle. What struck me when I

read your post was the behavior. This little girl is more than hyper, more than high strung. She has trouble focusing during training, but when she's outside, she will fixate on something (kitty, bird, leaf blowing across the yard) so totally that she

will NOT come in when called, even if it's 20 degrees. Her mom has to go chase her down (not an easy task) and carry her back in

even though she's trembling from cold.

 

I'm not suggesting that this may be the problem, just a quick story to let you know you're not alone. Good luck.

[greytlucy]

I work with a lady who is a "poodle person." She has ALWAYS had at least one poodle in her life, so is very experienced. Two years

ago, she got a toy poodle puppy, & the problems began.....What all had perceived to be "high strung" was obviously more than that.

 

She's a vet tech, & so is privy to a lot of professional boards & very into research. After months of training, testing, etc, she

& vets finally came up with some kind of liver disorder (sorry, a lot of the technical stuff kind of went over my head).

The gist of it was that the liver wasn't filtering out toxins like it should, & research showed that the build-up of toxins could

actually affect the brain.

 

She's on supplements & a vegetarian diet now & doing a little better, but it seems to be a life-long battle. What struck me when I

read your post was the behavior. This little girl is more than hyper, more than high strung. She has trouble focusing during training, but when she's outside, she will fixate on something (kitty, bird, leaf blowing across the yard) so totally that she

will NOT come in when called, even if it's 20 degrees. Her mom has to go chase her down (not an easy task) and carry her back in

even though she's trembling from cold.

 

I'm not suggesting that this may be the problem, just a quick story to let you know you're not alone. Good luck.

 

 

Thanks. Yes, the vets and the bazillions trainers and behavioralists we've consulted with are working with us to work through this(I've come to the conclusion 99% of "dog trainers" have no freaking clue what they're doing to be honest). Honestly, we probably should have returned him to the breeder early on as we've had difficult issues with him from the very beginning but we couldn't bring ourselves to return him. However, this is the point of seeking out a good breeding program so you don't have these issues and if you do the breeder will stand behind their breeding. She would have taken him back without any issue but we couldn't bring ourselves to do it and thought it was just puppy stuff and given the issues he was having with teeth and ears would work itself out once those were taken care of, he got some solid training under him and he began to mature.

 

As for the food...I began the switch to grain free due to the fact teh vet and are i beginning to suspect allergies given the recurring ear infections he's had. I didn't switch looking to shape his behavior. What i HAVE noticed is since we've switched begun switching to this food the behavioral issues have ramped up seriously. This is why I was asking if anyone had noticed a connection like this before. It could be coincidental but as we continue to seek and search for what the triggers are for what is becoming OCD like tendencies this stood out strongly this week. He's also had his dental implants put in ten days ago so that could be part of it. Arizona is unusually cold that could be part of it. It's a holiday weekend, my husband is home more that could be part of it. IT's the last week of the semester for me as a grad student and I'm buried in work and that could be part of it.

 

It's been a difficult puzzle to figure out. I"ll probably take him back into the vet again this week to have him checked just to be sure. he's in there so much I thikn they think I have Von Manchausen syndrom!

 

If we can get this figured out he'll be a really nice dog. He has a sweet personality and he learns so quickly.

Edited November 27, 2010 by greytlucy

[Guest LindsaySF]

Need to consult with a DVM with a behavioral specialty. He's young but that behavior sounds like a neurological disorder, possibly with a visual component.

Agreed. He might need to be put on medication.

 

It could be coincidental but as we continue to seek and search for what the triggers are for what is becoming OCD like tendencies this stood out strongly this week. He's also had his dental implants put in ten days ago so that could be part of it. Arizona is unusually cold that could be part of it. It's a holiday weekend, my husband is home more that could be part of it. IT's the last week of the semester for me as a grad student and I'm buried in work and that could be part of it.

OCD-like tendencies tend to flare up in times of stress. The circumstances you described above are likely contributing to his behavior, rather than the food change.

 

What are the dental implants?

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[GeorgeofNE]

I don't think any of this (except possibly the ears) sounds food related. What does the breeder say?

[Guest Giselle]

I would skip all the BS "behaviorists" and trainers and seek a veterinary behaviorist.

If it's expert advice with experience and academia to back it you need, then you've got it with a vet behaviorist. If it's the meds you need, the vet behaviorist can prescribe it. If it's further neurological testing, then the vet behaviorist can refer you. Don't waste your time with non-descript 'professionals' who, you've already noticed, often don't know a clue about behavior.

 

http://www.veterinarybehaviorists.org/

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/

 

For high stress, high-strung dogs, pacing is a self-reinforcing behavior that you need to nip in the bud. Ivy paced obsessively during her worst years, and our vet behaviorist rightly said that allowing her to continue that behavior was allowing her to continue neurosis. She was high stress, high energy, highly reactive, all with a mercurial attention span. As soon as you weren't interacting with her, she would get up and pace.

 

The turning point was when she was prescribed Fluoxetine (Prozac). That, combined with rigorous behavioral modification, cut down on the pacing and all the other neurotic, self-reinforcing behaviors. We phased out the medication about 1-2 years ago. She no longer paces, no longer reacts, and has a phenomenal ability to focus and and relax. If behavioral mod isn't working as well as it should, you're right. It may not be the training. But it's probably not food-related either. It may be that she needs an aid to help her, and that very well could be medication or some sort of neurological testing. Good luck! It took a lot of "pointless" repetitions of down-stays to stop Ivy's pacing and scanning, but you have to battle through it with a good medication regiment, if necessary. Obsessive pacing and scanning are very unhealthy behaviors.

[Burpdog]

As for the food...I began the switch to grain free due to the fact teh vet and are i beginning to suspect allergies given the recurring ear infections he's had. I didn't switch looking to shape his behavior. What i HAVE noticed is since we've switched begun switching to this food the behavioral issues have ramped up seriously

 

Because of the already suspected allergies, I believe the food could be related since the symptoms escalted after being switched.

 

If you suspect allergies, I would not feed chicken at all, in anything. Try a fish base & see if anything happens. You could try fish only, nothing else for a few days and see if anything changes. Even though he is a puppy, a few days of "meat" only won't hurt. Or go to a previously untried protein like buffalo.

 

Also, I have the premier allergy testing place info if you want it

[Guest akgs13]

While this is NOT hound related, my little guy has an allergy to any and all food dyes.

Now that they are out of his system, I have seen a different change in his behavior. (for the better! He is happier and healthier!)

Good Luck!

[Guest Swifthounds]

This is overy obvious I admit, but you mention the dog is 7.5 months old, has the dog been vaccinated recently?

 

 

Vaccinosis is incredibly prevalent in all poodle varieties, but especially standards. It's a combination of the genetic predisposition in the breed and the vaccines that produce autoimmune and neurological issues and behavior changes.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Swifthounds

[MaryJane]

The ear infections could be a by-product of allergies and if they were severe enough, I suppose they could cause the behavioral issues. You might want to try a dog food like natural balance limited ingredient - I suggest the venison and sweet potato one. I have used this successfully for foster greyhounds that have had "digestive issues/allergies".

 

I strongly suggest that you do not feed chicken at all or any by-product of chicken. I have seen chicken cause more than it's share of allergies in greyhounds.

 

You could also make a home-diet and stick to veggies, meat, and rice for a few weeks and see if things get better. Note, you need to consult with a vet to get the proper amount of supplements like calcium and vitamins.

 

Good luck