Josie Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 So we went to the vet this week for Tuffy follow-up. He is on deramax and dextab for his arthritis. The vet was really happy that it is going realy good! Tuffy has a lot less pain now! it's a real diffence form a few months back! more active and more playfull, eats good and is happy. but... we did a blood test. (No urine test was done) Tuffy creatinine and BUN are high... THE VALUES ARE NOT IN "AMERICAIN" VALUES BUT INTERNATIONAL VALUES! creatinine 265 umol BUN 16.8 mmol since it's going better the vet cut the medication a little, 4 days a week 1/2 a deramx and 5 times a week 1 dextab (.25mg) we have an appointment in 1 month to do a other blood work. what do you think??? I'm so worried Quote Our first greyhound, Tuffy: You will always be there with us my angel! Tuffy greyhound-dataOtis greyhound-data Abbey greyhound-data"When you open your minds to the impossible, sometimes you find the truth." W.Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotaina Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 I don't know the conversion so I don't know if those numbers are high or "greyhound high", however, if the BUN:creatinine ratio is normal, then she should be OK. Quote Meredith with Heyokha (HUS Me Teddy) and Crow (Mike Milbury). Missing Turbo (Sendahl Boss), Pancho, JoJo, and "Fat Stacks" Juana, the psycho kitty. Canku wakan kin manipi."Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josie Posted October 28, 2010 Author Share Posted October 28, 2010 I think it can be convert like this, BUT I'm not sure of this, anyone can help? I'm not a lab tech or a chemist creatinine 265 umol equals 2.9? BUN 16.8 mmol equals 6? Quote Our first greyhound, Tuffy: You will always be there with us my angel! Tuffy greyhound-dataOtis greyhound-data Abbey greyhound-data"When you open your minds to the impossible, sometimes you find the truth." W.Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotaina Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 If your calculations are correct, then the BUN is on the low end of normal and the creatinine a little high. .5-1.6 is the "normal" dog ref range, but my boy routinely runs between 1.7 and 2.0. At any rate, you may refer your vet to the OSU website - they have the values posted there (using whatever units we use in the States). Quote Meredith with Heyokha (HUS Me Teddy) and Crow (Mike Milbury). Missing Turbo (Sendahl Boss), Pancho, JoJo, and "Fat Stacks" Juana, the psycho kitty. Canku wakan kin manipi."Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotaina Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) Hm. I'm no chemist by any stretch of the imagination, but the online calculations I'm finding have the conversion as being about 2.9 for creatinine and BUN at 47, so yes, both would be high, even for a greyhound. "Normal" dog BUN range is 6-31. Maybe TinyMityMo will see this - she works with blood for a living and she can give accurate conversions. Edited October 28, 2010 by turbotaina Quote Meredith with Heyokha (HUS Me Teddy) and Crow (Mike Milbury). Missing Turbo (Sendahl Boss), Pancho, JoJo, and "Fat Stacks" Juana, the psycho kitty. Canku wakan kin manipi."Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burpdog Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 He should stop the NSAID immediately. Many vets aren't aware they can affect the kidneys as well as the liver. See if you can try tramadol instead. Quote Diane & The Senior Gang Burpdog Biscuits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josie Posted October 28, 2010 Author Share Posted October 28, 2010 does anyone knows in what units are the USA blood values I see everywhere? "Normal" dog BUN range is 6-31... but it,s 6 to 31 WHAT? Quote Our first greyhound, Tuffy: You will always be there with us my angel! Tuffy greyhound-dataOtis greyhound-data Abbey greyhound-data"When you open your minds to the impossible, sometimes you find the truth." W.Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burpdog Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 I found this: Wikipedia BUN is reported as mg/dL in the United States and in Italy. Elsewhere, the concentration of urea is reported as mmol/L. To convert from mg/dL of blood urea nitrogen to mmol/L of urea, divide by 2.8 (each molecule of urea having 2 nitrogens, each of molar mass 14g/mol) Urea (in mmol/L) = BUN (in mg/dL of nitrogen) / 2.8 convert BUN to urea in mg/dL by using following formula: Urea= BUN*2.14 MW of urea =60 urea nitrogen : 28 = 60/28 Quote Diane & The Senior Gang Burpdog Biscuits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josie Posted October 28, 2010 Author Share Posted October 28, 2010 I found this: Wikipedia BUN is reported as mg/dL in the United States and in Italy. Elsewhere, the concentration of urea is reported as mmol/L. To convert from mg/dL of blood urea nitrogen to mmol/L of urea, divide by 2.8 (each molecule of urea having 2 nitrogens, each of molar mass 14g/mol) Urea (in mmol/L) = BUN (in mg/dL of nitrogen) / 2.8 convert BUN to urea in mg/dL by using following formula: Urea= BUN*2.14 MW of urea =60 urea nitrogen : 28 = 60/28 thanks and the creatinine? is it in mg/dl too? Quote Our first greyhound, Tuffy: You will always be there with us my angel! Tuffy greyhound-dataOtis greyhound-data Abbey greyhound-data"When you open your minds to the impossible, sometimes you find the truth." W.Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotaina Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 does anyone knows in what units are the USA blood values I see everywhere? "Normal" dog BUN range is 6-31... but it,s 6 to 31 WHAT? 6-31mg/dL But Diane already posted that. Sorry for the confusion. The units are referred to as "conventional" as opposed to "standard". Apparently, the US and Italy uses conventional units and the rest of the world uses standard. thanks and the creatinine? is it in mg/dl too? Yes. And this is what I used to convert: Conversion Calculator Quote Meredith with Heyokha (HUS Me Teddy) and Crow (Mike Milbury). Missing Turbo (Sendahl Boss), Pancho, JoJo, and "Fat Stacks" Juana, the psycho kitty. Canku wakan kin manipi."Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burpdog Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 From Wikipedia too: In the United States, creatinine is typically reported in mg/dL, whereas, in Canada and a few European countries, μmol/litre may be used. 1 mg/dL of creatinine is 88.4 μmol/L. The typical human reference ranges for serum creatinine are 0.5 to 1.0 mg/dL (about 45-90 μmol/L) for women and 0.7 to 1.2 mg/dL (60-110 μmol/L) for men. While a baseline serum creatinine of 2.0 mg/dL (150 μmol/L) may indicate normal kidney function in a male body builder, a serum creatinine of 1.2 mg/dL (110 μmol/L) can indicate significant renal disease in an elderly female.[citation needed] for male reference range are 60-120 micromol/L and for female it is 50-110 micremol/L (Ref: Australian Medicine Handbook) Quote Diane & The Senior Gang Burpdog Biscuits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josie Posted October 28, 2010 Author Share Posted October 28, 2010 I hate conversion! so if I get this right: creatinine (265 umol divided by 88.4 makes) 2.99 BUN (16.8 mmol multiply by 2.8 makes)47 Quote Our first greyhound, Tuffy: You will always be there with us my angel! Tuffy greyhound-dataOtis greyhound-data Abbey greyhound-data"When you open your minds to the impossible, sometimes you find the truth." W.Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotaina Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Yes, that's what I got. Quote Meredith with Heyokha (HUS Me Teddy) and Crow (Mike Milbury). Missing Turbo (Sendahl Boss), Pancho, JoJo, and "Fat Stacks" Juana, the psycho kitty. Canku wakan kin manipi."Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josie Posted October 28, 2010 Author Share Posted October 28, 2010 found on the net: *** Depending on the lab's normal range, other breeds have a high of about 1.2 to 1.4 for their creatinine level, Greyhounds can normally run up to 2.1 (some say to 2.4) before it's considered to be possibly abnormal. If there is any doubt, run a second test on the urine called a specific gravity to help distinguish true kidney failure from a normal value. A specific gravity in the 1.008 to 1.012 range combined with a truly elevated creatinine requires further testing. BUN's can also run a little above other breed's normal. *** my question is: is this a reversable sitation and waht can I do to make it better? we will slowly decrease the deramax and try to go on other thing... like tremadol... Quote Our first greyhound, Tuffy: You will always be there with us my angel! Tuffy greyhound-dataOtis greyhound-data Abbey greyhound-data"When you open your minds to the impossible, sometimes you find the truth." W.Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan41 Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 A friend just went through something very similar (rising Creatinine) and took a chance on Dr. Feeman, sending him an email to which he replied: 1. It is VERY common for Greyhounds to have elevated creatinine levels and have normal kidney function... it is a breed idiosyncrasy. You should print the article I attached above and share it with your vet. This was published in a veterinary peer reviewed journal 7 years ago. The BUN levels that you listed all would have been read as "normal" at our reference lab so you seem to have a high creatinine and a normal to high normal BUN. 2. Before you will see elevations in BUN or creatinine a dog has to lose 75% of their kidney function. BEFORE that though if a dog loses 66% of their kidney function they lose the ability to concentrate their urine. Therefore, if a dog can show an ability to concentrate their urine you know that they must have at least 34% kidney function left which immediately tells you that an elevated creatinine can NOT be from kidney disease in this patient but for the creatinine to be elevated the dog would need to have less than 25% kidney function. 3. ALWAYS try to check the urine specific gravity (aka urine concentration) on the first urine in the AM. That sample tends to be the most concentrated of the day b/c most dogs don't drink a lot overnight. A diluted urine sample CANNOT rule kidney disease in (if you or I drink a lot of water we will have dilute urine but that doesn't mean that we have kidney disease). A concentrated urine sample DOES RULE OUT kidney disease (at least in the classic sense). I would accept a urine specific gravity of 1.026 as ruling out kidney disease to me. (ETA: the SG of 1.026 was for the greyhound about which Dr. Feeman was contacted only and is not a blanket statement for all.) https://greyhound.osu.edu/ Article referred to in item# 1: If you would like to read it, email or PM me and I will send it to you. THANK YOU DR. FEEMAN. ANYONE WHO ANSWERS AN EMAIL AT 12:47 AM IS MY HERO FOR LIFE! FWIW: Have said it many times, after a bout with Acute Renal Failure, my Suze's Creatinine is "normal" at 2.6. All other kidney function test results are well within normal ranges. The subject of Dr. Feeman's email has a "normal" Creatinine of 3.0. These results do not mean that we can "set it and forget it". If nothing else, I am more vigilant now than ever. Suze had a series of blood tests immediately after the ARF to monitor her recovery. One year later, she had the same tests repeated 3 times at 30 day intervals to document her "normal" Creatinine. Urinalysis and SG were done at the same time. Quote Linda, Mom to Fuzz, Barkley, and the felines Miss Kitty, Simon and Joseph.Waiting at The Bridge: Alex, Josh, Harley, Nikki, Beemer, Anna, Frank, Rachel, my heart & soul, Suze and the best boy ever, Dalton.<p> ....for all those hounds that are sick, hurt, lost or waiting for their forever homes. SENIORS ROCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeofNE Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 There's no need to "slowly decrease Deramaxx." You can just stop giving it. It's just an NSAID. The urine specific gravity is inexpensive and fast--some vets do it right in their office. It's very important to measure that before you get too upset! Quote Susan, Hamish, Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyMityMo Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 sorry for the delay (Meredith pm'd me about this) but I was locked out of my work computer all afternoon. Yes, the info above is correct. mg/dL for both and 88.4 and 0.357 are the conversion factors (divide your number by these) for creat and BUN. 47 is pretty high for a BUN. Are there other high results indicating a possible dehydration situation? Quote Maureen, Sean, Molly (Garnett Madonna) and Sully (Starz Top Style) Visit LongDog Leather Works for adjustable leather martingales, wrap around leather tag bags, breakaway tag necklaces and cool leather people gear. Check out our Etsy store! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aradia222 Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 Hi all My greyhound got into a carrot cake friday > Rushed to the er and made to throw up given charcoal and fluids . We took him home and monitored him and he is being rechecked daily . His creatine was 2.1 . yesterday 2.2 and today 2.3 . I'm having him rechecked Tuesday . The Dr tonight said his bun was fine. He has had 2.0 creatine since I got him I'm worried but he is urinating and eating and running about . Any suggestions ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 I assume the vet was concerned because there were raisins in the cake? How’s the urine specific gravity? If the BUN has been stable and the BUN is still close to what is was I would tend not to worry. He could just be slightly dehydrated (it’s awfully hot out where I’m at). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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