What Causes A Confused Canine?

[KF_in_Georgia]

Jacey-Kasey is seven and a half. She's lived with me since April 2006 after she raced for one season at JCKC. In the first year, there were UTIs and serious separation anxiety, but both conditions were resolved in the first few months. She's a bit OCD--licks furniture and carpets and beds, follows me to the kitchen every single time, etc. She's even-tempered, not afraid of storms or most noises. Even when a noise frightens her, she doesn't panic. (When she wanted to run from a lawn mower headed for the grass in front of my condo the other day, she grabbed her bully stick to take it with her.)

 

She last saw her vet in February, when she had a dental (with two extractions). Her teeth have been chronically bad, although recent encounters with bully sticks and a deer antler have made a big difference. At the time of her dental, the vet did a routine lab series (his "senior dog profile"), and all her numbers were good. She takes Soloxine for thyroid issues--has done for a couple of years. She's a tiny girl, weighing just about 50 pounds. For the past seven months or so, both dogs have eaten a venison-based kibble.

 

And periodically--in the last year or so--she's demonstrated eccentric, confused behavior.

 

The first few times, it was funny and not actually alarming. I was in the bathroom, changing clothes after work, and she came in and insisted on standing in the bathtub. I know some storm-phobic dogs take shelter in the tub, but she's not storm-phobic and the weather was fine. She carefully climbed into the tub and just stood there. When I called her to come out, she didn't respond. Finally, when I left the room, she came out after me. On a couple of occasions, when I could tell she was headed for the tub, I tried to stop her from going in; she'd dodge around my hands to get to the tub, and it wasn't a game. She was determined to get there.

 

Other occasions have been less comical. There have been occasions when we'd come in the house after both dogs had been out to pee, and she'd turn right around and stand with her nose against the door. I figured I must have hurried her, so I took her back out. She just stands there--doesn't need to pee any more since she went during the first trip out--and if I lead her back into the house, she comes in with me and is fine. Or there's the time she eagerly followed me to the kitchen for her dinner. I put her dish down, took Sam's dish out to the dining room (so they don't hang over each other's dinners), and I went back into the kitchen to find her staring at her dish as if she didn't know what to do. I held a piece of kibble to her mouth and she didn't sniff it or taste it. And this wasn't boredom: both dogs adore their kibble. I walked her out to the water dishes in the dining room, shooed Sam away when he wanted to go eat her dinner; she ignored the water, I took her back to the kitchen, and she started eating. She ate every piece of kibble in the bowl.

 

Today, we were outside. The dogs were tethered to a Dog Anchor (28-pound weight). If either dog tried to take off, the weight would give some with them, but they wouldn't go far. We were in the shade of the carport. The dogs were on their beds, and I had my laptop and was getting some work done while the dogs napped and watched the squirrels. Jacey had been fine, but she suddenly got up, walked a few steps, and stood as if staring off into the distance. (Her ears weren't up, and she wasn't actually watching anything.) I figured maybe she needed to go pee. I unhooked her from the Dog Anchor, and she continued to just stand there. I had to really tug the leash to get her to move. We walked to the corner (she did nothing), walked back home, and she hesitated in the doorway as if she wasn't sure she was supposed to go inside.

 

And in all of these instances, her tail is tucked. That's how I know she's really having some sort of problem, because that tail normally is out and swinging like crazy. But bathtub events, standing at the door, confusion over her food bowl, and today in the carport--tail tucked every time.

 

I don't think it's a seizure. She responds to things like tugs on the leash or a hand trying to keep her out of the tub. But she doesn't respond to her name or even "Come here, girl." My "happy voice"--which usually elicits frantic tail-wagging, if not an actual smile--has no effect. She does turn her head to watch where she's walking--she stops at the closed front door, she doesn't walk into it. She stopped and stood over her food dish; she just didn't know what to do with it. Her eyes appear focused, but she won't look into my eyes. (We've all met shy dogs that tuck their tails and look away from you--as if they're nervous but not willing to show it; that's how she's behaving.)

 

I'm going to send a copy of these notes to my vet, and I'll take her in for lab work to see if something shows up there. But what do we test for? I think she's probably too young for this to be a form of canine Alzheimer's. Any ideas?

Edited October 9, 2010 by KF_in_Georgia

[kudzu]

Seizures come in all shapes, sizes & appearances. A partial seizure seems a possible explanation. Strange as it sounds I would wonder about hypothyroid as well. If she was human I would ask her if she had a headache, like maybe a migraine. When was she last checked for Lyme?

[KF_in_Georgia]

When was she last checked for Lyme?

 

I don't know that she ever was tested. But Florida and Georgia (her only homes) show on Lyme disease maps as low-incidence states.

[Guest tammara]

Do you think she could be having periods of low blood sugar? Are these events consistent to any time of day? I think I would also have her thyroid checked again. We have a dobie who has low thyroid and when he is low he starts acting off, his symptoms are a little different though (low energy, occasional periods of shivering and he starts acting grumpy). But I would think low thyroid symptoms could easily vary slightly between dogs. Have you ever had to adjust her Soloxine?

 

 

[KF_in_Georgia]

Do you think she could be having periods of low blood sugar? Are these events consistent to any time of day? I think I would also have her thyroid checked again. We have a dobie who has low thyroid and when he is low he starts acting off, his symptoms are a little different though (low energy, occasional periods of shivering and he starts acting grumpy). But I would think low thyroid symptoms could easily vary slightly between dogs. Have you ever had to adjust her Soloxine?

 

We had to adjust the Soloxine when she put on a lot of weight (6 pounds--more than 10% of her body weight) for no reason. I went from feeding three cups a day down to two cups, and she still didn't lose weight--until we upped the Soloxine. I do know her vet will be really reluctant to up her dosage. She gets two .8mg pills a day, and the vet says that's the maximum he wants to give a dog her size (50 pounds). In this case, her weight hasn't gone up. It's the behavioral stuff, with no other symptoms.

 

Most of the events I've witnessed have been in the evening because that's the time I'm with her the most. I leave for work right after she gets breakfast, and they get dinner pretty soon after I get home. But the latest event--the staring into the distance in the carport--happened mid-day, and she'd had a snack of a bully stick a couple of hours earlier. And there could be incidents during the day while I'm at work. Fortunately, Sam hasn't shown any tendency to react to her behavior, and both dogs are muzzled while I'm at work.

Edited October 9, 2010 by KF_in_Georgia

[GeorgeofNE]

Did your vet run that full thyroid panel thing? Cause Dr. Couto says that thyroid problems are wildly over diagnosed in Greyhounds. When my old dog was on Soloxine, my vet ran blood work rather frequently for the first two years to make sure the dose was correct. He was not a Greyhound.

 

I'd be a bit suspicious since that's the only condition she's being treated for. Something to consider.

 

 

 

[greyhead]

With Spencer it turned out to be inability to process B vitamins in the gut due to intestinal malabsorption. In addition to acting cognitively confused, he at one point had difficulty standing up. So now he gets a B-12 injection, just under the skin, once a month. (For a while it was a couple times a week, then weekly, then twice a month, and now monthly or whenever he acts like he needs it!)

[kudzu]

When was she last checked for Lyme?

I don't know that she ever was tested. But Florida and Georgia (her only homes) show on Lyme disease maps as low-incidence states.

Yes, but it is increasing in our area & Jacey-Kasey raced at JCKC which is tick heaven. Any JCKC dog should be considered are risk of TBD. Venus came with Lyme at titers just low enough not to show on the SNAP test but did rank in an equivocal range. We chose to treat & the change in her really surprised both me & the vet. BTW, if Jaycee's had a HW test it was likely the SNAP test that includes at least Lyme & Ehrlichia. Lyme is a tricky disease that can hide for years & then reappear, sometimes with neuro symptoms. That's the only reason I mentioned it.

 

Felt the thyroid suspicious just because... well, I was having strange confusion & thought processes getting briefly halted before my hypo-T was diagnosed.

 

She looked good at the race today. You were at a distance so I didn't go over & say hello. Someone came around looking for their running mate, Jaycee-Kasey. Of course, you were no longer in sight then.

 

Hope you can get it sorted out. Laura

[KF_in_Georgia]

Jacey was paired with one of the winners, and we went off to get pictures at one point. Last year, Sam was running mate to the race winner. My dogs can't race worth spit, but they can hang out with winners.

 

She gets the heartworm test every year, and her results have always been fine.

 

Her weight has been fine for a year now, which is why I'm not immediately assuming the current issue is thyroid-related. When her weight explodes, her thyroid numbers are off; when the weight is good, so are her thyroid numbers, although we're certainly going to check that again. (Her vet retests every year before he renews her prescription, and that was tested in February, before her dental.)

 

Mary, when Spencer's problems were diagnosed, was there a particular test that the vet ran to find the problem? Is there something specific I should ask Jacey's vet to look into?

 

I'm going to email my vet with Jacey's symptoms and give him a little time to research things (if he needs it). I figure that makes more sense than just walking in for an appointment and springing a whole list of exotic behaviors on him. I've got vacation time coming up later this month, and I'll get her in for lab work and a vet visit then. Fortunately, both dogs adore the vet and vet tech, so visits aren't traumatic. Jacey even likes the car ride.

 

(Both dogs have been exhausted and sleeping like logs since we got home from the race. If this is how they react when they don't race, I wonder how much they slept after a race they actually ran.)

[greyhead]

Mary, when Spencer's problems were diagnosed, was there a particular test that the vet ran to find the problem? Is there something specific I should ask Jacey's vet to look into?

It's called a serum cobalamin test. (Cobalamin is the name of B-12.) And I think they usually do it in conjunction with a TLI test too. TLI stands for trypsin-like immunoreactivity, and it's a test for pancreatic insufficiency; if a dog has that, there are other indications of a digestive nature, so I wouldn't worry about it in your case.

 

In our case it later turned out that Spencer had a SIBO infection. And we only found that out because we kept pushing to find a reason for the intestinal malabsorption, which nobody but us seemed curious about.

 

I don't know what other causes of B-12 deficiency might be. I do know that another symptom is a tendency to chew on wood; have you seen any of that? (Spencer went after a windowsill and a rocking chair.) And how is the poop quality?

 

Here's a link to a list of Texas A&M links regarding cobalamin and folate. Well worth checking out the first two especially. http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/TAMUCVM?q=cobalamin&domains=www.cvm.tamu.edu&sitesearch=www.cvm.tamu.edu

In any case, best of luck getting to the bottom of it. I'm so glad you're pursuing it.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Mary, thanks for the links. Jacey hasn't shown signs of digestive problems, and she's not having any weight problems. She hasn't been chewing wood. (She's not much of a chewer, which is one reason her teeth have been so bad.)

 

But I'll mention the possibility to her vet. He also might have some ideas. In the past, she's had trouble with UTIs, so I suppose there's also the possibility of trouble in that direction.

 

I think she was having problems--the bathtub events--prior to her last lab work (in February, before her dental), but I could be wrong, and it's possible that all the problems started after that. So it's possible that we'll find something significantly different on her lab work when I take her in.

 

The episodes themselves aren't a problem for me to deal with, but I feel bad because she's obviously distressed when they occur. And I have to wonder if any of this happens when I'm at work, so she may be experiencing this even more than I realize.

[greyhead]

Mary, thanks for the links. Jacey hasn't shown signs of digestive problems, and she's not having any weight problems. She hasn't been chewing wood. (She's not much of a chewer, which is one reason her teeth have been so bad.)

I know how distressing it is, to see a previously intelligent, aware hound look so lost and confused. Hopefully your vet will have some ideas. I Googled "B-12 deficiency causes" and found mention of other things, like an autoimmune malfunction and tapeworm infestation. Not that it's either of those! I didn't have time to look further, but it's interesting to consider the possibilities. Just don't let them get away with the it's-old-age explanation. I was given that as the reason our then-5-year-old greyhound was having incontinence problems! We never did figure out what it was, but it went away, so I guess it wasn't age! Scritches to Jacey!

[KF_in_Georgia]

Jacey's vet is very good, so I'm not worried about being blown off. But the budget is tight, so I want to narrow down some possibilities before I spend enough to fund a veterinary hospital for a year.

 

Actually, my niece-in-law is a vet student at the University of Georgia. I might ask her about ideas. Her specialty is parasitology, so if it could be a tapeworm-type thing, she might have suggestions. (On the other hand, Jacey's shown no sign of worms, and I clean up after her right away every time she poops, so I think I'd know if she had that problem.)

[Guest MZH]

Our Rita came with a highish Babesia titer. She acted very, very strangely when we first got her at age 2. I really thought she might be autistic. She'd stand in the yard looking up and around at things only she could see. She was scared of coming through doors; she was scared of going out and when she finally did, she didn't want to come back in. She didn't want to eat in the house either -- it meant coming through a doorway. She even was scared of going under the Natural Bridge in Virginia; it was just a big doorway to her! She was petrified if I put a bag on the table -- scared of change. If anything changed in her environment, she was scared of it. Her Babesia titer finally dropped 3 years after imidocarb shots. She also had low thyroid, and a weird Proteus mirabilis UTI shortly after we adopted her. She's a lot better now after persistent treatment and Soloxine but she's still somewhat nervous and doesn't like crowds. She's 7 now and this has been a long journey for her. I'd be sure your girl doesn't have a tick disease like Babesia -- although it could be lots of other unusual things too casuing strange behavior. I hope you find out what might be causing her issues. Might her thyroid meds need adjusting?

Edited October 10, 2010 by MZH

[seeh2o]

We had to adjust the Soloxine when she put on a lot of weight (6 pounds--more than 10% of her body weight) for no reason. I went from feeding three cups a day down to two cups, and she still didn't lose weight--until we upped the Soloxine. I do know her vet will be really reluctant to up her dosage. She gets two .8mg pills a day, and the vet says that's the maximum he wants to give a dog her size (50 pounds). In this case, her weight hasn't gone up. It's the behavioral stuff, with no other symptoms.

 

I wonder if she is over medicated, that seems like a huge amount of Soloxine in such a tiny little girl. Carl weighs 75lbs and gets .7mg total per day, 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 in the evening. If I'm reading this right, your little girl is getting .16mg of Soloxine per day, more than double the dose Carl is, that seems really alarming to me.

 

You could email Dr. Jean Dodds with her thyroid values, weight, age and amount of Soloxine she's currently on and get a second opinion - probably get a response today. You can email her today, she usually gets back within 24 hours, if not sooner...and there is no charge. Her email is:

hemopet at hotmail dot com Her lab runs Carl's annual thyroid test and she is the one who recommended .7mg total per day. We were lucky and that was exactly what he needed.

Edited October 10, 2010 by seeh2o

[Guest MZH]

FWIW, Rita was only getting .2 twice a day. When we upped her to .4 twice a day she got much happier and calmer. Point 8 does seem like a lot but a full thyroid panel would tell if it's too much or not. If $$ is tight, I would opt for that one test if it's not been done yet.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Jacey was on a lower dose of Soloxine originally. When we first started her on thyroid meds (3 years ago?), the initial dose we had her on solved the issue of her ballooning weight. This was after cutting back on her food for more than three months had made absolutely no difference in her weight--and I mean cutting back to two-thirds of what she had been eating for a year without any issues; on that paltry two cups of kibble, she was gaining weight. Within a month on thyroxine (I can't remember what dosage then), her weight started to drop.

 

She was on that dosage for more than a year, and then the weight started going up again. Again, I cut her food way back, and again that did nothing but make her chronically hungry. On two cups of kibble a day, she got absolutely pudgy and she looked awful (skin and hair issues). Her lab numbers have never been useful, since she tests almost exactly the same with and without the pills. (I've been asked, "Are you sure she's taking these things? She's not kicking them under the refrigerator?") Anyway, her vet reluctantly increased the dosage and her weight immediately began to drop and her hair and skin got better. Right now, her weight is fine, and her hair and skin look good.

 

I'm going to email her vet with everyone's ideas and set up an appointment to take her in for a blood draw. I'm thinking we need the regular "senior wellness lab panel" (that'll include a urine sample), a full thyroid series--test that thyroid every way possible, and a tick panel for whatever tickborne diseases her vet thinks a Florida dog could bring in with her. (She hasn't had any ticks since I've had her.) At this stage, I don't think she needs to see the vet since, unless she has an episode under his nose, there's really nothing to see. She looks terrific--when her tail isn't tucked between her legs.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

 

P.S. And no, she isn't kicking her thyroid pills under the refrigerator. Both dogs take thyroid pills folded in a bit of cheese so I can be sure the pill gets into the dog. Jacey has been known to camp in front of the fridge when she thinks it's time for her pills. She loves that cheese.

[Batmom]

Testing the thyroid every which way from Sunday won't tell you much since she's on meds for it.

 

Some good info here: http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Sections/Endocrinology/Thyroid_Canine.php and http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Sections/Endocrinology/Monitoring.php .

[KF_in_Georgia]

Animals do not need to be weaned off of T4 supplementation. There is no apparent harm in abruptly stopping thyroid supplementation.

 

I'll talk to my vet about this. Perhaps we can check ticks and general blood work and discuss stopping the Soloxine for 6 weeks before we test her thyroid.

 

Although I shudder to think how much weight she might pack on in six weeks...

Edited October 10, 2010 by KF_in_Georgia

[Batmom]

Some folks seem to feel that dogs should be weaned off over a few weeks so YMMV. I think MSU's note on that point comes from the fact that the body has something of a reserve -- the values don't plummet if you miss a pill. Also why you have to wait so long to get a good picture via full panel -- have to wait for the meds to peter out, and then for the body to regularize its native, unmedicated thyroid function.

 

If in doubt about how best to proceed, your vet could certainly consult with OSU (Ohio State, the greyhound people) or MSU's endocrinology group. That might make some sense as it might save you the aggravation of taking her off the meds if she truly needs them. I know GTer patricia went through that with her angel Flashy.

 

Hugs and best luck.

[Guest MZH]

Testing the thyroid every which way from Sunday won't tell you much since she's on meds for it.

 

Some good info here: http://www.animalhea...roid_Canine.php and http://www.animalhea.../Monitoring.php .

 

True, but if nothing else shows up it can be done if she's taken been off the meds 6 weeks. I'm not suggesting this; it's a last-choice scenario if nothing else comes to light. I really hate messing with thyroid meds b/c I don't have a depth of understanding about it. I'm also hoping it's a case of Babesia like Rita had. BTW, her TSH was a bit elevated. I don't remember the details at this point.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Maybe we'll try the regular lab work and tick panels and see where things stand. There might be something obvious there for us to deal with before we address any thyroid questions. Then we could look at the thyroid issues if nothing jumps out at us in the lab work and tick panel. But in the mean time, there's no reason to screw with her thyroid meds if there's something else we should deal with first. After all, she was on this level of thyroid meds for several months before the goofy behavior started. The behavioral stuff seems to be happening more frequently (a couple of episodes in the last two weeks), when there's been no other change in meds.

[Guest MZH]

When someone in my household has a case of NDR (not doing right) the first thing I do is tick test. Rita came from Florida and was 1:640 positive for Babesia only. The other 19 in her "shipment" were negative for everything. OTOH it may not be a tick disease at all. Dogs with kidney/vascular/neurological issues do strange things too. We had one do all three at only age six. The vet could do basic neurological tests in the office too; that might be the simplest place to start.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Jacey saw her vet on Tuesday. He drew blood and ran her normal senior wellness exam.

 

The results came back today and there's no sign of anything wrong. (Nothing worrisome showed up during the office exam, and of course she didn't have an episode there, where he could see it.)

 

We've started her on a two-week course of Doxycycline on the assumption there could be a TBD going on. The vet didn't want to run a tick panel. He says it's $100/pop, often yields less-than-definite results (especially the first panel), and we might as well just treat her as if we'd had a positive result. It wouldn't hurt, especially since he had the other lab work to show that there wasn't anything going on that the Doxycycline could mask or interfere with. (He pretty much said, "If a panel is positive, we'd treat her, even without a guarantee that these episodes are connected to the TBD. If a panel is negative, we'd wonder if it was a false negative, and we'd treat her anyway. Let's skip the panel.")

 

And I have a prescription to have filled for Valium. He's working on the assumption that if these episodes aren't caused by a TBD, they could be absence (or petit mal) seizures. At present, there's nothing severe enough or frequent enough to need Phenobarbital, but the Valium could break things up if she starts having cluster seizures.

 

So, it's a TBD--or it isn't. It's epilepsy--or it's not.

 

I'm to start keeping notes on the episodes I see. Lord only knows how much might be happening while I'm at work.

Edited October 21, 2010 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest speedoketo]

SIBO - small intestinal bacterial overgrowth - presents with diarrhea, not with neurological signs. Testing B12 and cobalmin without diarrhea or really any gastrointestinal problem at all isn't an effective use of your money. Have your vet do a full neurological exam and she may need imaging studies done of her skull.