Sa

[jamngrey]

Hi all got a question. My latest foster was adopted 2 weeks ago and he has MAJOR SA. His owner has him on ace due to his vets advice....I was wondering what all of you with SA dogs that are medicated are on? It would not be my choice but need more advice to before I approch him..He has done all the training (trust me) but Nitro Howls and tears things up even 3 slats out of the wood fence . Now he is crating and using the meds but Im not sure the ace it the way to go esp since greys are so sensative to it

[macoduck]

I'd think the Ace would terrify him more even though it drugs him to be calm. They need a new vet now! How about Clomicalm? Granted it doesn't start acting right away but would be better for a longer term. Did he behave this badly when being fostered?

[Batmom]

Ace works for some dogs in some circumstances but usually isn't a useful SA drug even for those dogs ..... What does he do, when? What training has the owner done over the past 2 weeks? Not sure I understand how the dog got to the fence during an SA incident?

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Two weeks is not enough time to extinquish SA, so they could not have tried all of the alone training, let alone have enough time to see any real improvments. Sounds to me like they want to take the "easy" route and drug when SA is something that takes a LOT of work to deal with. JMO.

[Guest NeverSayNever]

Clomicalm and because it takes up to 8 weeks to help, I would recommend Xanax in the meanwhile. Xanax helps reduce anxiety for a specific event such as fireworks, storms, etc. But can be used daily for severe separation anxiety. I would probably start with a higher dose of Xanax and then if things are going well, slim the dose down. If things are going well, slim the dose down. I suggest they give Xanax about 60 - 90 minutes prior to leaving.

 

Another benefit to Xanax is that it gives some dogs the munchies big time! So leaving the dog with 3 frozen kongs stuffed with the morning's kibble and ____ (raw egg, canned dog food, yogurt, cottage cheese, or ???) can really be helpful for a dog that may not have been able to eat while alone prior to using Xanax.

 

Tell them to ignore the greyhound. No attention, no petting, no affection. Lots of exercise, training, etc. But no close bonding moments. Discourage dog from following around the house. Teach him to lie down on his bed and turn it into a "go to place" cue so the dog can be given a purpose while the persom is in another room. Don't allow him on furniture.

 

Good luck.

[Guest kydie]

JMO I don't like ACe,, I would vote for xanax ,,,quicker acting for man or beast,,, Sa that has never been an issue here, I though due to the fact there is always a pack in place when a new one arrives,,, but then again I work at home,,, and when I do leave DH is here,,, when we do go out together,,, none of the neighbors ever complain of the dogs barking,,,,,,,,, has he used a kong to help with bordom? O.K, just a side note,,, how ofte does he walk the dog,,, I vote walk, walk, and walk again,,, I'm big on walking,, a tired dog is a good dog

Edited August 5, 2010 by kydie

[jamngrey]

He walks him 3x a day.. Yep he is left with a Kong and his bully stick for chewing. Nitro HOWLS the whole time with few min of quiet every so often. This begins at 5:30 in the am. I am in contact with him to get him to stop the ace and go to xyanx. Thanks for all the advice... I realize that it takes a while and 2 weeks isnt even a drop in the bucket when dealing with SA doigs but we are trying to figure a way so he can stay in his new home... The owners biggest issue if for Nitros safety and wellbeing. He knows it cant be good for him to be so stressed.

[Guest cheltzey]

We've dealt with this for 4 months with Lando, and we're finally on Reconcile. We've been on it for 3 weeks, and we are definitely seeing signs of improvement. But I still can't leave without a muzzle or a belly band, or who knows what I'll come home to.

[seeh2o]

I wouldn't use Ace either, I didn't like how it effected my half grey when he was afraid of fireworks.

 

Carl was on Clomipramine Hydrochloride, the human version (and a lot cheaper) of Clomicalm. They just rebranded it and are now selling it for animals at a huge increase in price because they can. It took a few weeks to get up to therapeutic level in his blood stream, but it really helped. He didn't act drugged up, and it gave him a chance to learn new behaviors and that it was ok to be home without me. I had Carl on it for about 5 months, it would have been better to have kept him on another month or two to make sure the new coping skills were locked in, but it worked. I made the most of the time with him on it in terms of alone training, getting routines down, etc.

Edited August 7, 2010 by seeh2o

[Guest cms121979]

I hate to piggyback a topic, but my discussion goes hand in hand with this thread.

 

I adopted Echo about 9 months ago. When I adopted him, I was renting a house with two roomates. The house was a 3 bedroom house with a fenced in backyard. Some separation anxiety issues reared their ugly heads then. My two roomates worked third shift while I worked day shift. When I was at work, he would whine at their bedroom doors to get their attention. Simple fix for that was for one of my roomates to just leave his door open so Echo could see that someone was there. Once Echo became comfortable in the new place, all signs of separation anxiety ended. He and I bonded and things couldn't be better. In that time, he and I got our CGC and TDI certifications. He made HUMUNGOUS strides in the obedience department, and clearly showed that he was comfortable in just about any situation - alone or with company.

 

I just recently relocated to an apartment complex, so he and I no longer have a backyard to turn him loose in and we're a little more limited on living space than we were before. My work schedule hasn't changed much. In fact, it actually got better. Instead of potentially working 10-12 hours a day, Im away from home no more than 9.5 hrs at a time. But Echo has NOT been taking this new change well. I think the new environment kicked up all those old SA issues again, but this time its like SA on steroids. The first two weeks were a nightmare. The day I moved in here, I began working on alone training. Short sessions since I know for a FACT that Echo has a very short attention span (don't all greys?). Even still, the destruction has been unimaginable. He's destroyed furniture, baby gates, walls, a door, curtains and blinds, and urinated and deficated SEVERAL times a day in the house while I was gone. So working with a trainer, we went back to crating him. When I crated him before, he actually broke teeth trying to get out of the crate. It is a slow process, but I am working on creating a positive association with the crate. For the first week, he wouldn't take ANY food in the crate. He would HOWL nonstop. He was tearing the crate apart bit by bit. He would stand the entire time he was in the crate. I know. I've video tapped him while Im gone. But lately, he seems to be getting more and more comfortable with the crate. While in the crate, he does wear a static bark collar to prevent the hours of endless howling. During the transition period, he has not been himself. My normally happy go lucky, take life as it comes man has turned into a ball of raw nerves. Every little noise or flash of light set him into a pacing frenzy. When I am home, I put an end to the frantic behavior. He has a bed that is his "go to" place and will readily curl up there when told to "take a break". Because I have been so stressed and worried about him, I did contact three behavioralists. One is not taking new clients. The other two told me that his problem is beyond their scope of work - Great! I also contacted my vet who put me in touch with another vet who does a lot of behavioral stuff. He met with us and started Echo on clomicalm. I know it can take quite a while to see a significant change, but I swear, its must be a combination of the training and the meds because Im already starting to see some of the old Echo come back to me. This new vet also wants to try putting him on herbal supplements to help increase the effects of clomicalm. I have a few questions that Id like to bounce off some grey people since I know their issues are so specific given their backgrounds in the racing kennels.

 

1) The new vet talked about the possibility of not being able to wean Echo off clomicalm ever. I know SA is never fully cured, but I also know that I've worked him through the rough transitional stuff before and that we can do it again. Any thoughts on when/how to begin to wean Echo off clomicalm? I know it will probably be a few months, but I really don't like the idea of medicating him for life if not absolutely necessary.

 

2)I know exercise is CRUCIAL to the anxious dog. We generally walk 3 hours a day. On really nice days or days that I have a bit more energy, we can go as much as 5 hours a day. I know he is tired. He's barely able to get back to the apartment standing up! He is literally lagging behind me at the very end of the lead. Even though he's clearly exhausted before I leave, he still stands all day in the crate. He won't get comfortable. For the first few minutes in the crate, he shakes horribly. He eventually stops, and thats when I leave thinking he's starting to calm down. If Im draining his energy sufficiently, what else can I do to help him relax and chill in his crate? Is it possible that there was a negative association somewhere in his past with the crate that's creating a more difficult barrier to cross? I do not believe in crating as punishment, and NEVER use the crate as punishment, but I do know some people use crates exclusively for that reason. Echo has had other homes before and has been bounced around because of his issues. Im not 100% sure on how he was dealt with before.

 

3)Because he seems to not be able to hold his urine/bowels during his high stress moments (even in the crate), I was thinking about hiring a dog walker to come in during the day to take him out to relieve himself and to get a little more outside time in there. Would this be a good idea or could this potentially set back all the training?

 

I know SA is a very difficult issue and that each case is slightly different from the next. Like I said, Im starting to see the old Echo come back to me. He's more responsive to me now than he was a few weeks ago. I would try to work obedience sessions in there every so often and he would COMPLETELY shut down on me. He would stand in the middle of the floor and stare at the floor. But lately, he's responsive and doing really well when I am here. I am working on creating a more positive association with the crate. He's begun taking food in the crate, but he's not quite to the point of eating his meal in the crate. He has actually gone three days without food because the food was in the crate. Once the food was pulled out, he scarfed it down. I am working on short alone sessions. I can stand relatively close to the apartment and listen for whining or pulling at the crate. We're up to a whole 8 minutes before he starts whining. When I come back in, I ignore him and go about my business. Only after he finally lays down in the crate do I let him out. I don't talk to him or praise him. I just let him out. I usually wait for a bit, then do the routine all over again. During the week, I usually get 5 or 6 alone sessions in with him every night. During the weekends, I get a LOT more in. Any ideas, tips, suggestions are greatly appreciated. I am doing everything I know to do to help him adjust. And like I said, Im beginging to see *some* improvement, but my heart aches for my little man because he is so stressed. I wish I knew what created this problem in him!

[jenn8]

Have you thought about getting another dog to keep Echo company? Your roomates probably filled that role in the place you were living before. That may be why he was doing so well.

 

I honestly don't know how to get a dog who hates being crated... to like it or find comfort in there.

 

I would try to focus on your past success and see if you can recreate it somehow. He may just be a dog who cannot be left alone for long periods of time.

 

Jenn

[Guest Lgyure85]

The DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) collar worked wonders for Maddie. It took about a week or so to start working, but has been great. It looks like a flea collar, but doesn't smell at all. I got hers at the vet for about 35$. I highly recommend them, since they can't hurt.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Are you using the "static bark collar" that is an electronic shock collar? I just saw this post, that is why it took me so long to post this. I sure hope you are not using a shock collar on your SA hound. If your hound already has issues, why add another (fear of being shocked)?

Edited September 13, 2010 by Greyt_dog_lover

[Guest twhitehouse]

No ace! Clomicalm or Prozac (generic is Floxetine). These drugs will take about a month to get in the dogs system so they won't see instant results, but they are much more effective for SA.