Those Of You With Seniors With Weak Back Ends

[Guest gryhnd3]

Our oldest male is 13.5. He has never had strong back end (always squatted to pee). It started getting noticeably worse the last year or so. Last June, he got really bad, not being able to stand up sometimes. Vet we don't have now (moved away) had taken an xray of his chest (which I guess shows a portion, but not all of the spine) and said he has diskospondolysis.

 

I ended up taking him to a vet that practices acupuncture. She is not convinced the diagnosis was correct in that the xray doesn't show the entire spine (but we haven't taken another set). The acupuncture has really helped, go every 4-5 weeks right now.

 

He is on Deramaxx, Tramadol, joint supplements (for years now), salmon oil. I think what might have helped a few years ago would have been some sort of water therapy, something to strengthen his back legs, but I don't think he could do that now, for one thing he's quite skittish, we'd never be able to get him in there.

 

Is there anything I'm missing? Sometimes I try to massage his back legs, but I don't know if that is any help or not, but I guess he enjoys it anyway. It's so discouraging when otherwise he is healthy. Tonight we had an episode where he was trying to poop and he just collapsed, first time that has happened. I don't know if it happened because he was standing in the part of the yard where there is some snow left, instead of on grass. He got himself back up before I could get to him, but made quite a mess to clean up

 

So was just wondering if there is anything that anyone else has had any luck with? The vet had shown me a little exercise to do, just pushing down on his lower back while supporting him, it makes him push his hind legs back up a little, but it doesn't always work. I think his back legs are just way too weak at this point.

[Guest caiteag]

It could also be Lumbosacral Stenosis.. there are a variety of treatment options, though the one we used with our boy Quinn was depo-medrol injections.

 

This article by Dr. Suzanne Stack was very helpful to me and my vet.

[DunesMom]

 

We went through this with Dune. At 11, he was diagnosed with arthritis -- no sign of hip issues and really very little sign of anything arthritis-like in the x-rays, but the vet at the time said that was it.

 

He did well on the liquid Metacam for two years, but slowly got weaker.

 

Then did our new, greyhound-savvy vet, say she thought it was LSS. She had us try tramadol, and he went downhill fast on it.

 

Tramadol causes some weakness and instability, so his sudden weakness and falling might be that. When we tried tramadol, Dune fell, and had a really hard time getting up and down. That change was almost overnight. When we went back to metacam, he got stronger for a while, until the LSS just progressed beyond help.

 

good luck.

 

ETA: the shots didn't help Dune much, no more than oral steroids

Edited February 4, 2010 by DunesMom

[Guest krystolla]

There's an injured police dog that I've been following in the news. He isn't in the same situation as your guy, but the same sort of rehab seems to be going on.

 

They have him using a balancing ball, looks like one of those things used in aerobics class. It supports his weight but he needs to use his legs to balance his weight. Might work for your guy too. I'm not a vet but it might be worth checking out.

[HopeForHounds]

Keeping muscle strength up in the hind legs when the back is weak is tough. You can try holding each back leg up for a few min gradually increasing as he gets stronger. If that is hard on his balance, have someone hold a towel under him as a sling to keep him upright and stable.

 

Walks, even short ones are beneficial. Massage therapy really helps too. A massage therapist can also give you suggestions on things you can try.

[Guest smarthound]

We had a similar experience with two of our old guys. Acupuncture worked for us and we used a sling to help support them for squatting and stairs.

Does your veterinarian have a type iv laser? I've seen some great results from laser therapy. However, you will probably need xrays of the complete spine in order to identify the condition and the area that requires treatment. And if you get xrays, they need to be taken with great care to avoid injury. Our veterinarian used a mild anesthesia to keep our pup relaxed as he needed to be placed on his back to get a good shot of the spine.

 

Be careful that he doesn't fall. Going "spread eagle" really aggravates the problem. We put rubber-backed rugs on all slippery floors and treads on stairs that weren't carpeted.

 

Short walks will probably be helpful. Just enough to help maintain muscle tone but not so much that he gets tired.

 

Let us know how things go.

Edited February 4, 2010 by smarthound

[Guest gryhnd3]

That is interesting about the Tramadol causing weakness - I did not know that. However, he's been on it since the summer so I don't think that could be it, but I'm not sure now. For what it is worth, we did talk to an animal communicator several months ago, and he communicated to her that he did need the pain med, that if we didn't give it to him, he had trouble (I was trying to wean him off it as I wasn't sure if he needed it). I suppose we could experiment, but it does make me nervous to skip it. However...the other day, even when we still had snow, he walked all around the back yard for a long time without lying down, and that happened to be the ONE DAY I realized that I had forgotten to give him his morning dose of Tramadol. So maybe there is something to that. Though he does have general weakness and I'm sure arthritis anyway, and he had that before the Tramadol was started.

 

As for walking, DH had tried to take him on a walk with one of our younger guys last year, and he felt he was not going to make it home (we have acreage, so was just walking around the property). However, the vet said recently that just going out to the bathroom was not enough exercise. The fenced yard is about an acre and when the weather is nicer, he will walk around. But I agree, we need to try some short walks once the snow is gone and see how he does. I'm just concerned it's too little, too late...if there is already muscle atrophy, for example.

 

I can't imagine there is an animal massage therapist around here, there is only one acupuncture vet, but I'll ask her if she knows anyone.

 

I can also mention LS to her. Our female had it, we never did the injections though. She was also on Dermaxx and Tramadol - just about the time we lost her, he ended up on the same meds

 

He hasn't recently, but there were several times he did fall "spread eagle" when this was severe, in June. I have since gotten some more runners/rugs down.

 

I'll ask the vet about the laser. The only thing is, he's had an awful reaction to anesthesia years ago when getting his teeth done, we had to keep bringing him back for bloodwork, seemed to mess up his immune system, he almost fell off the table, took our vet by surprise - wasn't good. We have never had to anesthesize him again and we really don't plan to, I don't know if we would even in a life or death situation at his age and with that history...

 

Did you make that sling or purchase it? We do use a harness with him instead of a leash on the collar (he has a recurring neck injury occasionally), so I was going to run out and try to get the harness on him when he was down today, but I probably could have just lifted him up myself. We also have special stairs DH made for him to get off the deck, much more gradual than the regular stairs, but I do worry if he can't make them someday. His back legs are just so darn wobbly!

[ElizabethGPAPS]

My evidence is only circumstantial, but Simon (14.5) has been on Fresh Factors for a couple of years now...and a few months ago I ran out of it and didn't have any for about 2 weeks (1 week of procrastinating and 1 week of waiting for the delivery man ) and he went downhill in the back end during that time. Refusing the stairs, falling, the works. Once the new stuff came in the mail he was back to his old-but-mostly-steady self within a week or so.

 

I can't say he's running around like a puppy or that he never falls over while pooping (particularly hill-pooping), or that he never wedges himself upside-down between his bed and the wall and can't get out without help, but he gets around pretty well for his age.

 

 

[Guest Scouts_mom]

I got a Webmaster Harness from Ruffwear (http://www.ruffwear.com/about_us)to help my sweet Tia when her hind end got too weak. I would stand close to her when she peed or pooped and grab the hand if she started to lose her balance. We also used it for going up the two stairs into the house. It seemed to be very comfortable to wear and I just left it on her so I could help her up onto the couch when she needed. We got a Medium size.

[DonnaBehr]

"Tramadol causes some weakness and instability, so his sudden weakness and falling might be that. When we tried tramadol, Dune fell, and had a really hard time getting up and down. That change was almost overnight. When we went back to metacam, he got stronger for a while, until the LSS just progressed beyond help. "

 

I don't think it's the Tramadol that causes weakness. I think it causes instability

because it blocks the pain and the dog doesn't realize it's limitations bebecause of the condition.

[Guest gryhnd3]

Just talked with the acupuncture vet who ran bloodwork recently - he's the picture of good health (except for his back legs of course). She mentioned that he doesn't have the signs of a neurological illness, he doesn't knuckle over and he puts his paws back when she puts them under, but it is possible that he could have degenerative myelopathy.

 

She also said that oftentimes after they have been on a certain NSAID for awhile, it starts not working as well and so it may make sense to change to a different one. If what the Deramaxx is doing is not noticeable to us, then of course we won't be able to tell any difference, but we are going to try the Metacam liquid and see if we see any changes with him.

 

As for the Tramadol, she said maybe try giving him 1/2 pill in the morning instead of a whole pill, still give him the whole pill at night, and see if we see any differences.

 

He is on the Springtime joint supplements, for several years now, before that I had used a liquid joint supplement. I can't say I've ever seen a difference in any of my dogs, but I'm always afraid to stop giving it in case they would be worse without it.

 

Also, she mentioned that there is an anabolic steroid that is sometimes given to geriatric dogs to help with muscle loss, so that is something we could try down the road. She also thought he could use an antioxidant, so she's got one she'll mix up (she is holistic vet). I think she did give it to me when we first started seeing her, and we finished it and I just didn't ask for more.

 

I forgot to ask her about the laser, but of course we'd have to do xrays for that, so we'll just try to exercise him a little bit more and see how the switch to Metacam goes (I don't really expect to see any changes with it, but who knows).

 

I think I am going to order that harness for him as well, he just really has taken a bit of a turn for the worse this past week, even when he isn't standing in snow, his back legs give out and he ends up in a sit position, then sometimes just lays down after that. DH took him for a walk today and although he came back panting, he said he did pretty well and wanted to go further, he had to get him turned around back to the house.

[EllenEveBaz]

I think I am going to order that harness for him as well, he just really has taken a bit of a turn for the worse this past week, even when he isn't standing in snow, his back legs give out and he ends up in a sit position, then sometimes just lays down after that. DH took him for a walk today and although he came back panting, he said he did pretty well and wanted to go further, he had to get him turned around back to the house.

When my old Scout was failing, I would walk him with a harness for support and he enjoyed his outings very much. Sending kisses on the schnozz to your boy. Edited February 5, 2010 by EllenEveBaz

[dbullwinkel]

I know what you are going through. We adopted Missy at 4 years old..she is 10 1/2 now. She was never able to get in the car by herself or jump on the couch. I started joint supplements quickly after getting her..when she started dragging her back feet on her walks, I knew the changes were not good. Vet (at the time, not grey savvy) gave her various anti-inflamatories which did not work. We also tried shots for LS, but he was new to it and actually read the directions while he did it..did not see any change. Then I started acupuncture with her. after 4 weekly treatments she was trotting down the road again! I give her supplements from springtime as well, I love the fresh factors...not so sure about the joint health tablets though, she gets salmon oil, which I just learned I am not giving her quality brand in another post! She gets acupuncture monthly now or sooner if she needs it, I get generic version of metacam (meloxicam) at walmart for $4 with prescription from my vet. I like you, am always looking for something else to help her..especially getting in the car. she LOVES to go out, but it is so hard to get her in...she weighs 81 lbs and I have a small car, bad back and bad neck!! I tried the stairs with no luck. Sounds like you are doing a good job!

[Guest gryhnd3]

I know what you are going through. We adopted Missy at 4 years old..she is 10 1/2 now. She was never able to get in the car by herself or jump on the couch. I started joint supplements quickly after getting her..when she started dragging her back feet on her walks, I knew the changes were not good. Vet (at the time, not grey savvy) gave her various anti-inflamatories which did not work. We also tried shots for LS, but he was new to it and actually read the directions while he did it..did not see any change. Then I started acupuncture with her. after 4 weekly treatments she was trotting down the road again! I give her supplements from springtime as well, I love the fresh factors...not so sure about the joint health tablets though, she gets salmon oil, which I just learned I am not giving her quality brand in another post! She gets acupuncture monthly now or sooner if she needs it, I get generic version of metacam (meloxicam) at walmart for $4 with prescription from my vet. I like you, am always looking for something else to help her..especially getting in the car. she LOVES to go out, but it is so hard to get her in...she weighs 81 lbs and I have a small car, bad back and bad neck!! I tried the stairs with no luck. Sounds like you are doing a good job!

Yes that sounds similar to Derby. He could never get himself into the back of the SUV even when he was younger, he'd put his front paws up and then we'd have to give the rear a boost. Nowadays, we have to pick him up completely to get him in and out. It is tough sometimes since they are not small dogs to pick up He used to weigh more, but has lost some weight so now around 63 so I can just manage it myself. Missy must be a really large female! He never showed any signs early (we adopted him right off the track when he was also 4 y/o), other than squatting to pee, but the last year or two, he would have a hard time standing up eating his meals, his back legs would just keep sinking. Now I only feed him when he's lying down.

 

I *hope* I've got good quality salmon oil, just switched to it a few months ago. It is "The Wholistic Pet Deep Sea" brand, I buy it from SmartPak, there doesn't seem to be a lot of online places that sell it.

 

Derby did climb a flight of rather steep stairs to the 2nd floor of our previous house when he was younger, with some difficulty, but a few years ago, I had to put up a gate to keep him away, I was too afraid he would fall. He never tried to get on a couch. The acupuncture has made a general difference in that I think he feels better, etc. but I don't think it can do much for lack of muscles, or not feeling the nerves, whatever the problem may be, in his back legs.

 

Gosh I just picked up the liquid Metacam from the vet's office today and it was $125! The receptionist said it is pricey, but very good. So we'll see. I don't know about keeping up w/ that price though, will have to see how long it lasts. The vet said to give him 1x dose for 60 lbs (he's around 63), then if it seems it's helping, after 2 weeks or so, try dose for 55lbs. I am going to wait until Monday morning to try it, just in case he has any bad reaction to it, then the vet would be open.

 

I think liquid medicine is absorbed quicker than pills, I guess that's why she gave us the liquid and not pills (?) Deramaxx was costing about $33/month through the vet (different vet), so this is a big difference if it's a monthly supply (and I sure hope it lasts at least that long).

 

I just ordered the Ruffwear harness, seems like it will be something easy to keep on him even when it's hot out, as I think it may be getting to the point where he'll need some support while going to the bathroom. We'll see how it works out. He is my baby, our first grey that I had waited so many years for, and I know you shouldn't play favorites with your kids, but he has and always will be my favorite I'm grateful that he's reached the age he has, and of course want to do everything I can to make him comfortable and happy as long as possible.