I'm So Frustrated

[Burpdog]

I haven't tried it because the vet said he never heard of it.

 

Maybe I will try all ground beef first....hpefully it will work!

 

If not, I will add this stuff in.

 

I'm at a loss.

 

Have you tried boiled chicken? Also, you might try boiled roast instead of ground meat if the ground meat doesn't work.

 

The Fresh Digest is otc digestive enzymes.

 

What color is their poop?

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

Hi Jeannie. Stetson had his teeth cleaned and a wart removed and was on antibiotics. He got the Big D. I took him in this week after 2 weeks of this and going thru rice and boiled beef and the whole nine yards. The vet took a swab and he has a bacterial infection. Equivalent to a yeast infection in woman basically. He is on day 2 of the meds and his poop is looking good (if poop can look good)! Has your vet taken a swab and looked for bacteria?

 

To add, all my guys are on probiotics, but it didn't help keep the bacteria out with Stetson.

 

 

Good idea! Thanks Sue! Is there a name of this bacteria?

 

I haven't tried it because the vet said he never heard of it.

 

Maybe I will try all ground beef first....hpefully it will work!

 

If not, I will add this stuff in.

 

I'm at a loss.

 

Have you tried boiled chicken? Also, you might try boiled roast instead of ground meat if the ground meat doesn't work.

 

The Fresh Digest is otc digestive enzymes.

 

What color is their poop?

 

I had them on boiled chicken breast for the first 2 weeks or so, I switched thinking the chicken may be the problem.

The poop looks brown, but they try to eat it and when it gets on their face I wipe it with baby wipes ant it looks yellow. I know that is gross!

[Guest mcsheltie]

 

Well, I think I'd have the vet check for bacterial overgrowth by testing to be sure. I'd also have them checked for giardia or coccidiosis.

 

 

I am just throwing a couple of ideas out there.

 

Coccidia and giardia can lay dormant and not affect a healthy dog. Along comes something that stresses the immune system (vaccine) and wham... the buggers proliferate. Be it one of the above or a bacterial overgrowth.

 

There have been a zillion cases of vaccine reactions. Rabies vax causing a large majority. If something was wrong with that particular vaccine lot it might have affected the permeability of the intestines (cause of this is also immune system related) so they are now having reactions to food.

 

The way I would go at this is to check for the three things Eaglflyt suggested. If those are absolutely ruled out, I would start looking at food reactions from a medical standpoint. I think this is one case where I would try the allergy prescription diets like Z/D or HA. If there are no bacterial or parasitic causes I would ask my vet about trying some Pred or for other ideas to calm the immune system down.

 

If that works then six months from the time the diarrhea stops I would start to add in one protein. Staying away from what they have eaten since the diarrhea started. One ingredient at a time you will find out what they can eat and what they can't.

[pokealong]

I can't remember, she referred to it as a bacterial overgrowth and he is on Tylan.

[Guest mcsheltie]

I wipe it with baby wipes ant it looks yellow. I know that is gross!

 

Yellow goes with coccidia. When their poop is really runny often fecal tests aren't accurate. One of my vets explained why, but I don't remember the particulars. So... sometimes you have to do multiple fecals to find the coccidia oocysts. Same with giardia. There is more than one kind of bacteria overgowth.

[Burpdog]

Have you done panacur? If not, do 5 days and see what happens at the same time:

 

See if the meat works to tighten them up. Won't hurt to add the Digest stuff.

 

Have you done any blood work since this started happening?

[Batmom]

Random thoughts:

 

Try just the boiled meat, no rice. Drain some of the fat off if beef.

 

If you do use rice, add @ 30% - 50% extra water and make sure all that's absorbed in cooking. Helps it digest better. Some dogs will never get firm on rice even so.

 

I would give a longer course of Flagyl -- at least 2 weeks and probably 3.

 

Shouldn't have to take the pups in, just drop off a poop sample. But depending on what you've already done, vet might want to just Flagyl them first.

 

Hugs and best luck. Understand how frustrated you feel -- no fun at all.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

Burpdog..I asked for panacur...the vet (one that I don't normally see) said we should use drontal & 7 days of flagyl.

 

Batmom....I just made an appoinment for Sat with the vet i like and is greyhound savvy. He moved down to the South Elgin location, so I have been seeing other vets in the Algonquin office.

 

 

Thanks for all the help everyone!

[Guest MZH]

I agree with the likelihood of Coccidia. The stress of getting all their shots the same day may have been too much for their immune systems and the Coccidia came out of dormancy or something.

 

Whenever ours got all their shots at once, some got really sick, others didn't. Nowadays I always give rabies only and the rest 2 weeks later. (The vet said that's the best way to give shots.) It's worked well for us. I've never had non-stop diarrhea from getting all the shots at once though. They just tended to be very quiet.

 

I hope you can get started on treating this awful problem, particularly if it's Coccidia.

[Guest kydie]

Please note Flagal is given for yeast type infections, in intrestional tract, but need for a long period of time, months not a week, or two,I write this will all due respect to those here.

I too think may be beef is not the protein of choice here, please keep us posted on your pups, and again giardia testing is one way to rule out that problem

Edited December 30, 2009 by kydie

[Guest MZH]

Burpdog..I asked for panacur...the vet (one that I don't normally see) said we should use drontal & 7 days of flagyl.

 

 

Neither of those will treat coccidia though. Coccidia is notorious for not being seen in fecal samples so you might ask for a med for that. Coccidia is deadly if it goes on too long.

[Burpdog]

Ask for panacur again. Or, you could always buy it otc.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Burpdog

[EnzaFerrari]

I buy panacur OTC and keep it on hand. It's not the pricey and it's the same thing as the vet gives me.

 

I also second that rice sometimes doesn't work -instant mashed potatoes is the only thing that works for my girl.

[Chicocat]

One other thing -- you mentioned they were eating their poop. It would help to prevent this, with a stool guard or you can just tape the front of their muzzle. Sending mine out with stool guards made a huge difference in the firmness of Survey's poop. Can't hurt.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

If I want to stop Vinny from eating poop, I will have to stand back there and catch it as it comes out...which is what I am about to do. Vinny will sit 1 foot from Frosty as she poops and get it as it hits the ground...it is so gross!

 

Frosty rarely ate poop until this issue.

 

ETA....he squishes the poop through the duct tape on his muzzle. I will literally have to catch the poop....wasn't there a GT'er that rigged a hoop with a bag???? They were RV'ers.

Edited December 30, 2009 by FrostyBottoms

[Guest kydie]

If ther is some type of organism in the stool, by them eating it, it can be reinfecting them over, and over

[greyhead]

Eating poop, combined with yellow diarrhea/soft-serve, tells me there's likely a bacterial overgrowth that has gone on long enough to impair their ability to absorb nutrients from their food. Even though they're eating, they're not getting enough nutrition.

 

Food won't solve this. Worming won't solve it either. A thorough check for SIBO is warranted, along with a test for intestinal malabsorption.

 

One of mine had this happen and ended up with IBD, lost 20 lbs, needs B-12 shots for life, and can only eat venison. I spent the first three months changing foods, testing for worms, trying pumpking, beet pulp, and probiotics. It was a waste of time. BTW, our SIBO bacterium was Clostridium perfringens, thought by vets only to afflict GSD's. I had to insist it be tested for, based on a vet's article that sounded just like my dog.

 

Good luck, hon.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

what is GSD?

[Guest mcsheltie]

what is GSD?

German Shepherd

Edited December 30, 2009 by mcsheltie

[ahicks51]

The Coccidia is an interesting take; good suggestion.

 

Our of curiosity- what were they being fed at the time of the vaccinations? If it was kibble, does it contain wheat? (More curiosity than anything else- sorry!)

 

If I'm reading right from the discussion, they're on a wheat-free food right now, so this is a stretch- but you might try fish oil with every meal.

[Guest MZH]

At the risk of repeating myself, if it's Coccidia, the Panacur, Flagyl, and Drontal won't work. I just looked up how to tell if it's Coccidia. The experts say you may have to test every stool for 48 to 72 hours to find it! Clearly, it's difficult to tell if a dog has it or not; sometimes it's better to treat empirically. It's worth asking your vet if s/he thinks about the Coccidia possibility.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

The Coccidia is an interesting take; good suggestion.

 

Our of curiosity- what were they being fed at the time of the vaccinations? If it was kibble, does it contain wheat? (More curiosity than anything else- sorry!)

 

If I'm reading right from the discussion, they're on a wheat-free food right now, so this is a stretch- but you might try fish oil with every meal.

 

 

Actually Aaron, at the time of vaccination they were eating Evangers chicken & brown rice. I switched to Natural balance after they were getting the explosive BM's once i added ANY amount of Evangers in. I soon realized that it probably had nothing to do with the Evangers.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, if it's Coccidia, the Panacur, Flagyl, and Drontal won't work. I just looked up how to tell if it's Coccidia. The experts say you may have to test every stool for 48 to 72 hours to find it! Clearly, it's difficult to tell if a dog has it or not; sometimes it's better to treat empirically. It's worth asking your vet if s/he thinks about the Coccidia possibility.

 

 

What works on the coccidia?

[Guest MZH]

The Coccidia is an interesting take; good suggestion.

 

Our of curiosity- what were they being fed at the time of the vaccinations? If it was kibble, does it contain wheat? (More curiosity than anything else- sorry!)

 

If I'm reading right from the discussion, they're on a wheat-free food right now, so this is a stretch- but you might try fish oil with every meal.

 

 

Actually Aaron, at the time of vaccination they were eating Evangers chicken & brown rice. I switched to Natural balance after they were getting the explosive BM's once i added ANY amount of Evangers in. I soon realized that it probably had nothing to do with the Evangers.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, if it's Coccidia, the Panacur, Flagyl, and Drontal won't work. I just looked up how to tell if it's Coccidia. The experts say you may have to test every stool for 48 to 72 hours to find it! Clearly, it's difficult to tell if a dog has it or not; sometimes it's better to treat empirically. It's worth asking your vet if s/he thinks about the Coccidia possibility.

 

 

What works on the coccidia?

Albon and Tribrissen.

[ahicks51]

Actually Aaron, at the time of vaccination they were eating Evangers chicken & brown rice. I switched to Natural balance after they were getting the explosive BM's once i added ANY amount of Evangers in. I soon realized that it probably had nothing to do with the Evangers.

 

Ingredients in Evanger's Chicken and Rice (emphasis mine):

 

Chicken, Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Potato Product, Pearled Barley, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E), Carrot, Celery, Beet, Parsley, Lettuce, Water Cress, Spinach, Oat Meal, Catfish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Chicken Flavor, Flax Seed Meal, Egg Product, Monosodium Phosphate, D/L Methionine, Lecithin, Fish Oil, L-Lysine, Salt, Kelp Meal, Potassium Chloride, Natural Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Citric Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate.

 

Barley is Hordeum vulgare, a cereal grain in the Triticeae, a cousin to wheat. From this- if I'm right, and it's pretty speculative- lectins from wheat (and presumably barley and rye) cause sensitization in the gut. This is normally not a problem, but sometimes some system upset- injury, bacterial damage, or (possibly) vaccination- can result in a dramatic upswing in sensitization to the gut. This may be caused in part by adjuvants added to vaccines, but I don't know enough about veterinary vaccines to speak to the adjuvants used in these.

 

But both dogs at the same time? Phew. Occam's razor and the rest of his shaving kit make coccidia look like an appealing lead to follow. Hopefully that'll be that.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

Aaron...I love how you teach me something new every day (or at least every time I read your posts)

The something new I am referring to is Occam's razor!

 

 

 

Albon and Tribrissen.

 

 

I wrote this down and will bring it to my vet. Thank you!