Pelvic Bladder

[dante2zoe]

I have posted in the past about our 2 YO male and his housebreaking issues. He cannot hold his urine for more than 6 hours (at night) and frequently has accidents during that late afternoon. For some reason, antibiotics help, but the pattern returns after the course has been completed (4-5 days later). All tests are negative. X-rays have been taken and my vet is convinced that Goose has a pelvic bladder - it is too far back, for lack of a better description - and is unable to be fully expanded, which causes the accidents. I am not keen on an operation to move it up and the vet is really at a loss. He has never encountered this before. I am getting a second opinion from the vet that our group uses, but in the meantime, I am interested in seeing if anyone else has had this diagnosis made on their dog. I understand that it is more common in females and the symptoms are usually incontinence. Nonetheless . . . In the meantime, the kids are out of school, so he gets out more often during the day and a late turnout at night.

 

Short story, long - does anyone know anything about this from personal experience? I can do the official research, but I am looking for anectodal stuff. TIA! Cindy

[Burpdog]

If antibiotics help, it sounds like infection. Has the urine been cultured?

[dante2zoe]

Thanks for the reply. The urine has been cultured on two separate occasions. Negative both times. The thought process is that maybe it helps with reducing inflammation. In addition, they have dip stick tested it, too. One culture was from my catch, the other from a sterile catch that they did. He is putting him on another 30 day course of antibiotics just to see. He has been on Baytril, Clavamox and now cipro. He is more comfortable using cipro long-term and, while it is in the same drug class as Baytril, it's a cheap fix for right now. He also suggested just getting a doggie door, but we also have cats. My vet is stumped, but thankfully, he is open to all suggestions. Too bad he is retiring!

[Burpdog]

Although Cipro is cheaper, and it's suppose to be the same as Baytril, it isn't. Doesn't work as good as Baytril. That said, many use it.

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

 

Email Ohio State and ask their oppinion. I'm interested to see what they say.

 

Re xrays: did it include the kidneys?

[dante2zoe]

I believe it did include the kidneys, but I don't specifically recall. Regarding the cipro, he is just more comfortable with that and until I get all opinions and whatnot, I have no problem giving it a trial. Only going to cost me 4.00. I thought OSU only handled cancer related stuff. Would I just send the e-mail to Dr. C or to someone else? I am happy and willing to do whatever at this point. On the flip side, I get to replace all the carpeting on my first floor! Berber and urine - not a good combo! Needless to say, carpet is NOT going back down!

[Burpdog]

No, Ohio State has a Greyhound Wellness Program that is everything medically related to greyhounds

 

Medical Consult: greyosu@osu.edu

[Guest MZH]

Short story, long - does anyone know anything about this from personal experience? I can do the official research, but I am looking for anectodal stuff. TIA! Cindy

 

Yes, indeed. We have two girls here who both have pelvic bladders, believe it or not.

 

Rita will be 7 this month and had recurring UTIs when we first got her when she had just turned 3. The usual antibiotics didn't deal with her infection -- and she was on a three-week course. She didn't have a culture done; big mistake. Pelvic bladder dogs don't have the usual E-coli infections; they tend to have Proteus mirabilis. Once she was treated with the correct antibiotic, the infection went away and hasn't returned, amazingly. We were also told she might become incontinent if she didn't have the surgery to lift the bladder into the proper position but that never happened even though we opted to not have the surgery and to just wait and see.

 

Our second girl, Perri (formerly Perry) is still a pup at 15 months. We got her at 3 months of age -- and thought she was a boy. Turned out he is a she and is intersexed, but she has pelvic bladder too. We had a very tough time housebreaking her so when we did the diagnostics, we discovered the pelvic bladder on top of a bunch of other surprises. After she was 8 months of age, she finally could hold her urine in the house. The only surgery she's had is her spay, which was perfectly normal. She had one UTI, handled by antibiotics, and, like Rita, never had a recurrence.

 

If they say do surgery for the pelvic bladder -- well, don't, not unless there's a very, very good reason to do it!

 

Marcia

[dante2zoe]

Thanks for the reply! I would be very interested in finding out what type of antibiotic you got and for how long she took it. I sent his x-rays and chart to Dr. Marin at OSU yesterday. She told me that his bladder location was probably normal. (It is also my understanding that pelvic bladders are more commonly diagnosed in females) She was also interested to know when his problems began - before or after neuter. I am just hoping that she had a suggestion that can help. It is almost like having a newborn and I am way too old to be getting up every four hours!

[Batmom]

Agree with Burpdog. If the antibiotics help, it is probably infection.

 

Has he had an ultrasound?

 

Has he ever been able to last more than 6 hours overnight?

 

When and what is he fed each day?

 

 

 

Edited because I saw you answered a lot of my questions in your earlier thread.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Batmom

[GeorgeofNE]

Hey there--a lot of people have already heard this--but here you go!

 

My George had problems peeing in the house for a full year. Antibiotics (assorted, including Cipro) would help--but only for a while. We looking into SA, poor housebreaking, etc., but eventually we decided to try long term antibiotics as my vet had another greyhound patient who they could not stop peeing. Oh, I forgot to say that he was tested and tested and tested and tested for a UTI--all five tests were negative, all blood normal.

 

Anyway...after 14 weeks on Baytril, he has been dry now for over a year!!

 

Can't explain the lack of "evidence," but it seems clear to me and my vet that SOMETHING was infected and now it's not.

 

He never once peed while I was home--but after keeping a log, I realized it was because I let him out way more often on weekends than during the week. He didn't pee every day--and he didn't STOP peeing after wearing a belly band. He just couldn't help it.

 

I feel fortunate that I had a vet who has seen enough Greyhounds to have seen this before.

 

 

[dante2zoe]

Jumping George - I told my vet about your experiences and have been pushing for long term Baytril for a long time. He is very hesitant about using that antibiotic long term. I finally convinced him to prescribe something and he gave me Cipro. I pushed for 30 days. We started it again Monday night. We had to leave at 8:00 this morning for our DS high school graduation (yay! - last child through public school!!) and when we returned around 3:30, he was dry! Meanwhile, I sent his chart and x-rays (no ultrasound done) to Dr. Marin at OSU yesterday. She wanted to know about timing pre/post neutering, so that makes me wonder if George and Goose aren't flukes of nature or something. He only made it for 6 hours last night before he needed to go out. I, too, have done a gazillion dollars in testing. If he needs it, fine, but I hate to run a bunch of tests for nothing, but I understand the need for more than anecdotal evidence, but sometimes you have to think outside the box! This isn't SA or housebreaking issues, either. He will whine at night and run to the door and is not at all panickied or stressed when we leave. We have a whippet with true SA and I recognize the difference! Oh, and before I forget, he is raw fed twice a day about 12 hours apart and his diet varies day to day. He gets turkey, beef, fish, chicken, venison (when available), eggs, tripe, organ meat, pork and lamb. Heck, the dogs eat better than we do! I have kept note and what he eats doesn't seem to make a difference. His poo is great 98% of the time - liver makes him loose, but that's about it. I rarely see him at the water bowl and when he does drink, it doesn't take long. He is well hydrated, though. His weight is good and he is a happy, loving, goofball. And because I know the rulz and good thoughts are easier when you know who you are thinking good thoughts for, here he is

 

 

[Guest Scouts_mom]

No ideas about what is going on, but I have to say he is a very handsome boy. What is his name?

[dante2zoe]

Thanks for the compliment (as if it is my doing ) His racing name was Bg Shotgun and we got him from Greyhound Friends of North Carolina last November. His entire litter has passed through their kennel, with the exception of the other male Bg Sho Gun, who is still racing. Due to no room, we missed out on his sister Bg Shasta who is as shy as he was. Ahh, to have littermates! But, on a side note - he didn't whine until 4:30 this morning! Yay!

[Batmom]

The antibiotics sound like a good thing and I would do them.

 

If they don't work -- or don't work well enough -- some other longshot ideas:

 

- If his 2nd meal is less than 3 hours before bedtime, might try feeding him dinner an hour or two earlier, so everything gets processed before bed.

 

- In the pics, he looks a little on the lean side. Might be worth trying to add 2-3 lbs. to him and see if that helps. Could be he is fussing because he's hungry. Altho I will admit, my dogs are NOT on the lean side and they are always hungry!

 

- Nighttime retraining. Set the alarm clock for half an hour before you think he'll need to get up and gradually move it to the time you want to get up.

 

- Does he get any supplements? Joseph went thru a period of having to go out in the middle of the night. He had a UTI, we did antibiotics, he tested clean ... and still getting up early. I took him off kibble for a couple weeks then put him on a kibble with a lower salt content, and that seems to have fixed the problem. Salty kibble wouldn't be an issue for you, but if there is a supplement he is getting, could be that something in it just doesn't work for him.

[dante2zoe]

Batmom - thanks for the good suggestions! He usually eats about 3 hours before bed. I can try to move it earlier and change their evening walk. I take them for a long snif walk after I get home from work and then feed after a rest. The only supplements are a B vit and kelp a couple times a week and banana or apple slices. They get two small cookies (little dog size) before bed and when I leave for work. Those pictures are about a month old. We have put a pound or two on him - he eats almost a pound per meal - but I am adding it gradually. His ribs still show, but his hip points are barely visible. The vet says he is a good weight, though. He doesn't rush his meals and doesn't beg for extras either. I also wonder if he is now getting used to being up early and might be taking advantage. He is a pretty smart pup!

[Guest SusanP]

Is this condition especially common in greyhounds vs other dogs?

 

I hadn't heard of it, but when our Zippy was having recurring UTI's, the vet did a (what do you call it?) needle draw of urine directly from her bladder. They had trouble finding her bladder and told me it was further down than usual. For whatever reason, the infection cleared up (it's been a couple of years at least) and Zippy does just fine with her bladder, wherever it is.

 

But now you've got me curious...

[dante2zoe]

When I sent an e-mail to OSU, Dr. Marin replied that greyhound bladders are further back than in other dogs. She doesn't believe that he has a "true" pelvic bladder and requested that she see the films. My vet also mentioned that this is found more commonly in females than males, too. Hope that helps!

[Batmom]

Not saying this contributes to your boy's problem, but IIRC somebody's dog on GT had a problem with kelp. Might've been one of Trudy's pups?