Thyroid Questions

[Guest DarkHorse]

We have been having problems with Dexter off and on since about a month after we adopted him. First there was just that he was a bit pushy. Fine, he'd been loved on by a slew of volunteers while recovering from his leg wound so two people must seem like nothing to him. Then he started pushing Araley around. Then he started disobeying. Then he starting with his pottying in the house. All of this between the start of November and the start of December (him having come home right at the end of September).

 

We tried everything we could come up with, everything we searched out on the internet and we even consulted a trainer. Nothing really changed things. NILIF, SA, house breaking... all of it produced no results without bribery. Clicker training didn't work past the treat stage. He started bullying Araley away from her food and then stealing it... so we separated them while eating. He still only does "down" half the time without us having to get up to either threaten to make him do it or get a treat. Of course he'll do anything we ask for food, a treat or his walks.

 

We were baffled and starting to get fed up. His fecal and urinalysis tests were clean. He showed no signs of any problems other than just being stubborn. If he were human, he'd be my brother; only following the rules when there's something in it for him. He had no "respect" for us, his sister or his home. If he wanted to do something, he'd do it unless we were right there to stop it. The only thing that scared him was us shouting: scolding was useless, taking control was ignored... even exile to a crate, pen or bedroom was met with a lack of reaction. He didn't care about being with us unless we were petting him, treating him or walking him. We could (and did) phase out petting and treats for a while and he just stopped listening until we made him. Gently, of course.

 

We called up the rescue and talked to Bill, the head. He said what we'd been considering but fearing all along. Knowing that he didn't present any symptoms of medical issues and the fact that all three problems existed at the same time and despite training, it seemed like Dexter was just not happy with us, through no fault of ours or his. We were just trying to force the pieces of two different puzzles together. The only last thing he could suggest to check was Dexter's thyroid, just in case. If he was clear, it would be bring him back or risk him eventually getting aggressive in his increasing acting out.

 

We had an appointment this past Saturday for a booster shot, so I called up the vet clinic and asked if it would be possible to do a blood draw for a full thyroid panel when we brought them in on Saturday. After being told three times that NO Dexter was not on any medication and we needed the panel to look for problems, not to recheck, she booked the draw and told me it would be $40. Come Saturday, we tell two more people that this is a first panel, not a recheck and pay $70 for the panel and blood draw.

 

Get a call yesterday from the clinic. The T4 (NOT the panel I asked for) results are back. Dexter has a T4 level of 9.0. They can't tell me if he's got low thyroid or not based on that, so they have to do the panel I asked for in the first place for better results! For another $150, of course This isn't the first time they've screwed us around; at our yearly check up, the vet only looked at Araley's eyes and Dexter's back, not checking anything else. Everything there is overpriced (compared to the vet I know in London) and they couldn't/wouldn't give us the flea meds we wanted.

 

At this point, I am sick of this clinic and, as I am away from now until the end of Easter weekend, I can't do much in the way of finding a new place to do the full check (and maybe be our new clinic) until the start of next week. So, I'm hoping that in the meantime, some members with experience with hypothyroidism can give me some advice.

 

Dexter does not really exhibit any of the normal symptoms of hypothyroidism. He's got the normal bald belly and patchy butt, along with a bit of dandruff, but his flakes are similar to Araley's and the hair has always been like that. He is no more lethargic than Araley... he plays a little less indoors due to his clumsiness, but he makes up for it on walks and trips outside. He will out-run her any time we go to the dog park and he loves to jump around on the end of his leash. He is a thicker greyhound compared to Araley but he weighed in at 31.22kg on Saturday (68.8lbs) and 33.12 the month before that (73lbs) and he raced at 71lbs. We can still see his last two ribs and he feels and seems healthy. He cuts easily but always has and heals quickly. He only has diarrhea when he runs for an hour and poops four or five times at the dog park, and by the next day, it's normal again. His coat is in fine condition (other than the dry skin which all of us have from the winter) and he only smells a little bit more than Araley does, which is also normal.

 

Really, the only obvious "symptom" of hypothyroidism is his "anti-social" behaviour of not wanting to be part of the pack or even caring about the pack (DBF, Araley and myself) or his "home". He is otherwise perfectly healthy.

 

My question is: what was your dog's T4 level when diagnosed, and do you think that his behaviour is likely (or even possibly) because of a thyroid condition. We're going to get the full panel done regardless, but in the week or so until we do, I'd like some things to consider and perhaps some reassurance.

 

PS: If you're from the Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph area and you know of a good, reasonable vet (other than Waterloo West) please let me know. We're willing to travel to London but having a nearby vet would be a good idea. We just want one that we feel we can trust to care for our dogs and not our money.

[Guest MnMDogs]

Do you mean 0.9?

 

I took this from the recycled racers website to give you an idea of acceptable ranges for greys:

 

* Greyhound: 0.5 - 3.6 (mean 1.47 +/- 0.63)

* Other dogs: 1.52 - 3.60

If 0.9, that seems perfectly acceptable for a grey.

 

Edit to add, if he was my dog, I wouldn't have the full panel at that level with they symptom you described. I had the full panel run on Mork with a T4 of 0.8 (currently 0.6) and it's a bit pricey, and just showed that he wasn't hypothyroid.

Edited April 9, 2009 by MnMDogs

[greysmom]

OK - I may be completely wrong - but I think a T4 of 9.0 is incredibly high. I mean, a greyhound low reading would be like 0.2 or 0.3. A normal would be around 1.0-2.0. maybe. (Unless I'm completely wrong, which I could be, hopefully someone with a better memory will jump in soon!)

 

If that's the case, his behavior totally makes more sense. Dude came to us on thyroid, and through a long couple of years of putting up with his hyperactivity and aggressive play behavior, it finally dawned on me that he may be getting TOO MUCH thyroid. (He was sort of at the end of the period when greys were routinely diagnosed with low-thyroid just for bald thigh syndrome.) Long story short, we took him off his supplement and his behavior has really calmed down! He can actually pay attention to instructions and focus on commands for more than a split second. He still plays rough, but he's not super-aggressive-pushy-barky-bitey like he was.

 

I'm also SHOCKED that the vet couldn't say that right away with that reading - DEFINITELY time for a new vet! (Unless I'm totally worng!)

 

greysmom

 

OK - so someone was posting while I was. A 0.9 would be normal for a grey, but they CAN also be HYPER (too much) thyroid. If it's really 0.9 then I would start looking for other causes, and a new vet!

Edited April 9, 2009 by greysmom

[Batmom]

He's not symptomatic. I wouldn't bother.

 

Assume your lab's 9 is equivalent to most American labs' .9.

[Guest DarkHorse]

Our thyroid levels or tests must be different, or you're all referring to what I was told was the "next" test (basically a more refined version of the T4 which gave more precise and smaller results). I really don't know... the vet who gave me the result was not our normal one and, while nice, was difficult to understand (heavy accent and not a 100% grasp of English).

 

He said that "normal" was from low 20s to low 40s or 50s and borderline was 10-low20s. Therefore Dexter's 9 was just below borderline. I couldn't figure out if he meant normal for normal dogs or normal for greyhounds.

 

The only reason for running the full panel (at a different vet) is that if we don't or if he isn't hypothyroid we're faced with choosing between returning Dexter or risking him becoming aggressive, neither of which we want to have happen.

 

Seems like another call to Bill is in order before we proceed with another test.

 

ETA: The vet who called DID specify that this was suspected low rather than high, so I will GUESS that our 9 is like a 0.9)

Edited April 9, 2009 by DarkHorse

[Batmom]

P.S. His behavior per your description -- not listening unless there's something in it for him -- is quintessential hound.

 

With NILIF, there *should* be something in it for him. Clicker training and really any positive-reinforcement system works the same way -- reward for what you want, ignore (don't punish!) for what you don't want. You have to use top-notch rewards every time until the behaviors you want are 110% reliable. Then and only then can you start fading some of the rewards (such as the food -- never the praise) out to maybe 95% of the time ... then 90% ... etc.

 

I have one here, going on 9 years now, who's very much as you describe (altho she's never pottied in the house). You could yell, scold, etc. till you're blue in the face, and she would not care. At all. If she thinks there's a cookie in it, tho, she'll do anything and do it perfectly every time.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Really, the only obvious "symptom" of hypothyroidism is his "anti-social" behaviour of not wanting to be part of the pack or even caring about the pack (DBF, Araley and myself) or his "home". He is otherwise perfectly healthy.

Maybe that is just his personality. Why do you think there is something medically wrong with him?

 

 

We have been having problems with Dexter off and on since about a month after we adopted him. First there was just that he was a bit pushy. Fine, he'd been loved on by a slew of volunteers while recovering from his leg wound so two people must seem like nothing to him. Then he started pushing Araley around. Then he started disobeying. Then he starting with his pottying in the house. All of this between the start of November and the start of December (him having come home right at the end of September).

This sounds like a classic case of dog getting comfortable and deciding to push the boundaries.

 

 

Nothing really changed things. NILIF, SA, house breaking... all of it produced no results without bribery. Clicker training didn't work past the treat stage.

Does bribery work? If so, why not continue it?

 

 

He started bullying Araley away from her food and then stealing it... so we separated them while eating.

Many dogs steal food from others, not a big deal.

 

 

He still only does "down" half the time without us having to get up to either threaten to make him do it or get a treat. Of course he'll do anything we ask for food, a treat or his walks.

You shouldn't "threaten to make him do it" to make him do a behavior. If he will do the required behavior with the appropriate reward (food or walks), what is wrong with that?

 

 

He showed no signs of any problems other than just being stubborn.

These are all behavioral issues, not medical ones. Maybe he is just a stubborn dog? Have you been to obedience classes or seen a behaviorist for any of this?

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

 

 

 

P.S. - Teagan and Honey usually refuse to do what I ask unless I have a treat.

[Guest DarkHorse]

P.S. His behavior per your description -- not listening unless there's something in it for him -- is quintessential hound.

 

With NILIF, there *should* be something in it for him. Clicker training and really any positive-reinforcement system works the same way -- reward for what you want, ignore (don't punish!) for what you don't want. You have to use top-notch rewards every time until the behaviors you want are 110% reliable. Then and only then can you start fading some of the rewards (such as the food -- never the praise) out to maybe 95% of the time ... then 90% ... etc.

 

I have one here, going on 9 years now, who's very much as you describe (altho she's never pottied in the house). You could yell, scold, etc. till you're blue in the face, and she would not care. At all. If she thinks there's a cookie in it, tho, she'll do anything and do it perfectly every time.

 

Yes, but does your dog bully your other dogs, mess your house when you're gone and generally get into as much trouble as possible? He gets the best possible liver treats during training and is 150% when we have our treat in hand. If we don't, there's a 50% chance regardless. Even one time without a treat means probable no result. As we can't have a treat or leash 100% of the time, that's a problem. As we can't be there 100% of the time and he bullies Araley and potties in the house when we're not, it's an even bigger problem. I get stubborn and pushing the boundaries, but he just does not recognize boundaries.

 

Maybe that is just his personality. Why do you think there is something medically wrong with him?

 

This sounds like a classic case of dog getting comfortable and deciding to push the boundaries.

 

Does bribery work? If so, why not continue it? smile.gif

 

Many dogs steal food from others, not a big deal.

 

You shouldn't "threaten to make him do it" to make him do a behavior. If he will do the required behavior with the appropriate reward (food or walks), what is wrong with that?

 

These are all behavioral issues, not medical ones. Maybe he is just a stubborn dog? Have you been to obedience classes or seen a behaviorist for any of this?

 

OK, it's not necessarily that we think there's something medically wrong with him, it's that we're eliminating medical reasons because we've done all the training we are capable of.

 

He's not just pushing the boundaries, he's ignoring that any exist at all. He's not just making us work to train him, he's ignoring the training and the reward system isn't working on him beyond us standing there with reward in hand.

 

The only problem with the bribery is that it's the ONLY thing that works and we can't be there with treat in hand every second. When we're not, he does things that make us and Araley miserable.

 

Yes, and if all he were doing was stealing food, that would be OK. It was an example of how his behaviour is worsening and progressing, which it is.

 

By "threaten to make him do it," what I do is stand up from my chair, come over to him and go through the steps of gently leading him into a down, like you're supposed to do when first training it. It's not like I jump up screaming and going over to smack him. And again, the problem is that he WON'T behave without the reward, which simply cannot feasibly be there every second.

 

He has been to obedience class and we've consulted a trainer. In the obedience classes we used treat-clicker... which stopped working once we got to the "phasing out treats" stage. The behaviourist/trainer only suggested that we continue with the NILIF and give it time. That was a couple months ago and his behaviour is getting worse, not better.

 

Let me stress this. He is NOT smacked around or physically punished. If he refuses to follow a command, he is GENTLY led into the command, whether it be a down or a go to bed. He is asked to down or sit before being fed, going outside or getting attention. We shout when we have to get his attention immediately... our normal correction is a stern "no", from which he walks away with no signs of even having heard us.

 

When I call him anti-social, I don't mean "avoids other people/dogs". I mean it in the psychological sense... he knows what's wrong and what's right, he just doesn't care unless he "has" to for whatever reason. At least, that's how it seems.

 

The only reason we're in the state we're in is because of his messing and his bullying Araley. There are no methods of training we (or Bill or the behaviourist) can come up with that will deal with this. While this might just be the way Dexter is, the fact of the matter is that the way he is is making both us and Araley miserable. Basically, he's either doing this because he's unhappy, which means all four of us are, or because he doesn't care, which still leaves three of us miserable. Assuming it isn't medical, of course. The question then is whether we'd be keeping him for his sake or just for the sake of saying that we didn't give up. Honestly, I can't see how he could be happy with us either way if we're all miserable...

 

ETA: Better way to put it; we can deal with the not listening to commands part, it's the bullying Araley and pottying in the apartment that's the problem and while we can stop those while we're home, we can't when we're gone and we can't not leave. The reason his listening to commands is a problem is that it shows that he won't learn to behave without the impetus of treats, which is what shows that he won't behave while we're gone. If that makes any more sense. If he was generally well behaved otherwise, the needing treats for tricks wouldn't be a problem. But because we can't "train" him, we can't train away the real problem. So the training isn't so much the problem as the problem to solving the real problem.

Edited April 9, 2009 by DarkHorse

[Batmom]

Yes, but does your dog bully your other dogs,

Not exactly, altho she nearly killed my parents' whippet and is not very nice to visitors.

 

 

mess your house when you're gone and generally get into as much trouble as possible?

No messes, but when young she got into a lot of trouble if I left her out uncrated when I was gone or if I was there and not watching. Dogproofing is a wonderful thing. My house was SO CLEAN and featureless during Zema's first year or two home .... Some dogs need more housetraining than others. If I get a mess, I take them out more often and make sure they go. I usually don't leave a dog more than @ 6 hours without a chance for a potty break.

 

He gets the best possible liver treats during training and is 150% when we have our treat in hand. If we don't, there's a 50% chance regardless. Even one time without a treat means probable no result.

One issue may be the method your trainer conditioned you to. I train with no treat visible. Treat magically appears after dog has done what was asked, and I keep a pocketful of them pretty much all the time.

 

As we can't be there 100% of the time and he bullies Araley

Not sure how he is bullying her exactly? When I am gone, my two are separated by a baby gate. They can see each other and touch noses, but they can't go on rampages together.

 

and potties in the house when we're not,

He either needs to be taken out more often and/or he has some separation anxiety. Those are problems that can be resolved.

 

He has been to obedience class and we've consulted a trainer. In the obedience classes we used treat-clicker... which stopped working once we got to the "phasing out treats" stage.

Too soon to phase out the treats.

 

... our normal correction is a stern "no", from which he walks away with no signs of even having heard us.

Again, totally typical hound. Some greyhounds are easier. Some, like my Zema, really do not care what you have to say. Never has, never will.

 

... he knows what's wrong and what's right, he just doesn't care unless he "has" to for whatever reason. At least, that's how it seems.

But, if he isn't doing it, he doesn't know.

 

The reason his listening to commands is a problem is that it shows that he won't learn to behave without the impetus of treats, which is what shows that he won't behave while we're gone.

Well ... I disagree. Things like pottying in the house are habits. The more often they do it -- for whatever reason-- the more the habit becomes "go here" instead of "go outside." Curing that one is a matter of breaking the cycle by more frequent outs, more exercise, midday dog walker, evaluation of whether he has some separation anxiety, etc., and then working through the cause. Once he forms the habit of going outdoors, you have a little wiggle room to stretch the time between outs, etc.

 

[RobinM]

P.S. His behavior per your description -- not listening unless there's something in it for him -- is quintessential hound.

 

With NILIF, there *should* be something in it for him. Clicker training and really any positive-reinforcement system works the same way -- reward for what you want, ignore (don't punish!) for what you don't want. You have to use top-notch rewards every time until the behaviors you want are 110% reliable. Then and only then can you start fading some of the rewards (such as the food -- never the praise) out to maybe 95% of the time ... then 90% ... etc.

 

I have one here, going on 9 years now, who's very much as you describe (altho she's never pottied in the house). You could yell, scold, etc. till you're blue in the face, and she would not care. At all. If she thinks there's a cookie in it, tho, she'll do anything and do it perfectly every time.

 

Yup- sounds lile my gang too.

 

I don;t yell or scold. Nothing good ever comes out of that and I would only scare my dogs, so I don't.

 

Chloe is hypothyroid. Her T4 is .02. Very low. She does exhibit major symtoms when not on soloxine. Dexter does not exhibit any of the symtoms.

 

Give him his treats and he'll be a good boy!

[MaryJane]

I may be off base here but, do you think he might progress from bullying to biting Araley? Have you considered muzzling them both when you are gone or babygating them away from each other? Try using a belly band or diaper for the pottying and see is that helps. Or you can try putting down one of those pee mats and see if that makes any difference in his behavior.

 

You didn't mention whether or not your dog is ever happy (tail wagging and doing antics)? Does he wag his tail when you get home or when you go for a walk? Can you get his attention when you clap (noises) or wave your arms in the air (sight).

 

As to training, I might recommend to try and do it by just using praise and no treats. It's harder to do but some dogs, especially smart ones, can respond very well to it. But you have to be very effervescent with your praise !

[Guest DarkHorse]

OK, well, since everyone apparently wants to get the long version of the training, here's some answers:

 

He has been potty trained and re-potty trained THREE times. He can go out five minutes before we leave for five minutes and still pee inside, after peeing OUTSIDE four times. We can't NOT leave at all. I was home for almost a month the last time we potty trained him and no matter how many times he was taken out, he would still go inside when we left. Not every time, but about 75% of the time. There was a point where we were taking him out almost every hour... we went down to do laundry, were gone not even ten minutes and came back to poop and pee. This was 15 minutes after his last trip. After three weeks of only going outside. I don't know how much more habitual I can get with him without having nothing else in my life.

 

We have done comprehensive alone training TWICE. One took that month, neither worked. We would get a few times in a row good and then just when we were ready to move up a level, he would mess. We cannot be gone for longer than 5 minutes without risking a mess, regardless of the alone training. But sometimes we can be gone for 2 hours with no problem. He was left alone once outside of the alone training leavings within that month and only for 90 minutes. We cannot do any better than that without either me not going to school or DBF not working, neither of which is a realistic option.

 

He bullies Araley by stepping on her, pushing her around, standing over her, walking through her, shoving her off the bed... the list goes on. We tried separating them... he will injure himself to get out of any enclosed space. He tore his dewclaw (luckily not badly) the last time we shut a door. Baby gates he will jump or knock down/push through. Crates he will tear himself up getting out of. We leave the apartment open to him and he will pee, poop and bully Araley but neither of them will be hurt. We don't and we have to hope that he's only hurt himself a little. And yes, we have done the whole "treats/feeding in the area, get him to like it, etc" thing... it didn't help him get used to it.

 

We phased out treats when told to in the training class. And yes, we did the treat behind the back or in the pocket or somewhere he couldn't see it. He could still tell, presumably by smell. We did repeat the training after the class. We are on month four of still not being able to phase out the treat at all.

 

He does know that what he does is wrong because he will no longer do it around us or while we're home. He will step around Araley the minute before we leave and we will have him on tape stepping on her two minutes later. I know they don't think the same as us, but that's beyond believable. He knows what's right is because he will INSTANTLY do it if he thinks we're getting a treat. I can say "down" three times and he'll ignore me but if I stand up or move from where I am standing towards the treat bin, he downs instantly without me having to say it again. And that's not even a problem except for the fact that I have NO WAY of training him to behave with treats when I'm not there.

 

I am very rarely gone for more than three hours, as I am a student and have classes. He does not need to pee every three hours when someone's home. We simply cannot afford to put him in a doggy daycare or hire a walker and he is almost NEVER left alone for long enough to actually need one. We never leave him more than 5 hours without someone taking him out unless there are severe extenuating circumstances (the one time was an accident on the highway). We have tried everything from taking him out every hour, to right after meals and before we leave, to three strictly scheduled pee breaks plus a scheduled walk a day. None of it made a difference in our chances of a mess if we left. We've tried Rescue Remedy and DAP as well as TV, radio and everything short of drugs, which our vet won't give us without signs of distress.

 

Give him his treats and he'll be a good boy! wink.gif

 

I'm sorry, but just not the case. We HAVE been giving him his treats. He still bullies his sister and messes when we're gone. We can even leave treats in a hide and seek when we leave and he will find them, sniff around, lazily pull up and poop, sniff some more, stepping on Araley and walking through her all the while, pee, push Araley off the bed and go to sleep. He never shows any signs of being upset (panting, whining, pacing (beyond sniff pacing)) unless there's a shut door.

 

Quite simply, we HAVE done the training to the satisfaction of the behaviourist and the head of the rescue. Sure, there is THEORETICALLY more to be done, or we could do it for longer, but not with our lives and resources. We have done potty training and alone training as close to exactly as we can and not only has it not worked but it hasn't even helped. Not only has there been no solution but there has been no progress and indeed the opposite of progress. With all due respect to every one here, I do not want to be told that you think I can train him better because I and two other people with far more dog experience than I can't even come up with a way to do it better without completely changing our lives. And I am not willing to drop out of school for a dog, no matter how much I love him.

 

If you do have an odd trick or tip I'd be happy to hear it, but saying "oh, you're not training him right" simply isn't helpful because we've done everything we can think of to train him right. The RESCUE is saying there's nothing more we can do after this test. We've done potty training, alone training, treat training and clicker training. We've tried to contain him, we've tried letting him loose, we've tried schedules, we've tried going out every time he even looked funny. We've tried separating the dogs, we've tried leaving them together. We've tried putting Araley first, we've tried putting Dexter first. We've tried NILIF, we've tried bonding through walks and training and cuddling. We've tried long walks every day with trips to the dog park every other day. We've tried natural remedies, we've tried distraction with treats and with noise. We've even tracked whether the mail or the garbage truck coming makes a difference. We talked to a behaviourist, who agreed with the method of potty-training and alone training we'd tried and only had time to suggest. About the only two things we haven't done is drugs and a pet communicator, neither of which we or the rescue agree with IN THIS CASE.

 

Honestly, after six months of trying everything under the sun, we aren't even giving up... we're just out of other options. We aren't being lazy, and it's not that we haven't tried. We HAVE tried. We simply cannot FORCE it to work and we cannot change the facts of who we are. We cannot be home every second, we cannot afford to have him watched every second that we're gone and we cannot do any more than the training we already have done. I was lucky to have a month to work with Dexter thanks to exams and Christmas... and it still wasn't enough. Never reprimanding him didn't work, scolding didn't work and training hasn't worked. I know I'm a big bad owner because it's not working but I can't make it work and everything I've done has not worked. I really wish there were more that I can do but I have yet to find it. If you have it then great but if not then please don't tell me I'm not doing enough or doing it right because I don't have anything else to do or any other way to do it.

 

ETA:

MaryJane:

They are muzzled alone together. We tried a few weeks of no muzzles to eliminate that as the problem but when it didn't work, the muzzles went back on. We aren't taking the chance of her being injured. Thanks for your concern though. Luckily, he's shown no signs of outright aggression, just disregard.

We did a belly band and he could get it off somehow and would then pee on it. Didn't try a diaper, which can be something we try now.

He is happy when being fed or walked. Those are his "things". If that's not the case, he is at best disinterested. Again, fine but nothing else motivates him... so training is impossible without one of those two things.

Praise training was what we started with and did for the first two months. After a month of it doing nothing, we went to a class (start of January) where we started with treat/clicker training.

Edited April 9, 2009 by DarkHorse

[Guest LindsaySF]

I don't know of any dog that "behaves" when no one is home to watch them, just because they want to do the right thing. Dogs are like little kids. If they want to get into food, bully their housemate, etc, they will. Especially intelligent dogs, they know that no human is there watching them. Some dogs simply can not be trusted to have full run of the house, or to be alone with other dogs, when no one is home. That's where dog-proofing, babygates, muzzles, etc, come in. It's good that you are using muzzles, but if you are concerned that he is bullying your other dog then maybe you should separate them. I have gate hoppers here too, but there are other solutions (tall ex-pens, large crates, ex-pens with a top, 2 babygates stacked together, etc).

 

Him pottying in the house, jumping gates, busting out of crates, sounds like SA. I get that you've done alone training, but maybe he needs more? Maybe you being home from school over the winter break confused him and messed up his schedule? Maybe meds is the next step? Also, are you using an enzymatic cleaner to clean the messes? If not he can probably still smell it and will continue to mess in that spot.

 

 

There was a point where we were taking him out almost every hour... we went down to do laundry, were gone not even ten minutes and came back to poop and pee. This was 15 minutes after his last trip. After three weeks of only going outside.

So he was good for 3 weeks? That is great! Do you have a fenced yard or do you walk him? Maybe he hadn't gone potty when he was last outside and he held it until you left, then he got upset.

 

 

But sometimes we can be gone for 2 hours with no problem.

If he can be fine for 2 hours then he CAN hold it and not mess in the house. This means he isn't pooping and peeing everywhere the minute you are gone, just because you aren't there to scold him. If that were true he would do it every single time. There IS a pattern to his pottying in the house, you just haven't discovered it yet.

 

 

He was left alone once outside of the alone training leavings within that month and only for 90 minutes.

The longest time he was away from you during that month was 90 minutes? That might be part of the problem. He became used to you being there and now he can't handle it when you leave. Alone training isn't something you do once or twice and then it sticks forever. Every time you change your schedule you need a refresher course for the SA dog. How did you acclimate him to you going back to school after winter break?

 

 

I am very rarely gone for more than three hours, as I am a student and have classes.

It sounds like he is overly bonded to you, and he is not left alone enough. Sounds counter-intuitive I know, but if he is so used to seeing you except when you leave for class, he can't handle not seeing you during that one class. Have you tried slowly increasing the amount of time you are gone?

 

 

We have tried everything from taking him out every hour, to right after meals and before we leave, to three strictly scheduled pee breaks plus a scheduled walk a day. None of it made a difference in our chances of a mess if we left.

It is possible that you didn't stick with one method long enough to see a difference in behavior. How long did you give it before you decided it wasn't working?

 

 

If you do have an odd trick or tip I'd be happy to hear it, but saying "oh, you're not training him right" simply isn't helpful because we've done everything we can think of to train him right.

 

We've done potty training, alone training, treat training and clicker training.

No one is saying you aren't training him "right". We can tell that you have tried. But the thing is, there are a million different ways to do alone training (for example). Some are more effective than others. Very simple things like jingling your keys too much before you leave, or talking to the dog, or giving him too much attention, can make ALL the difference. One tiny change in the way you do things could be the breakthrough you're looking for. Even in clicker training if you don't time the reward just right you don't mark the behavior properly, things like that.

 

 

We have done potty training and alone training as close to exactly as we can and not only has it not worked but it hasn't even helped. Not only has there been no solution but there has been no progress and indeed the opposite of progress.

Now that's not true. You just said above that he didn't potty in the house for 3 weeks, and you have had "a few times in a row good", and for a month he only pottied 75% of the time. If the training was not helping at all he would be pottying in the house 100% of the time, and he certainly would not have gone 3 weeks without an accident.

 

 

we cannot do any more than the training we already have done.

It sounds like you have made up your mind already that if the thyroid test is negative, you're done. If that is the case then I would return him to the group sooner rather than later, don't bother putting him through a bunch of tests.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[robinw]

why don't you try tethering him to your waist with his leash whenever you're home? i had to do that with Loca for well over a month for many of the same behaviours that you've described. that will enable you to have the opportunity to constantly correct and praise him. secondly, maybe you should switch to a greyhound savvy vet. try Michelle St-Pierre at Waterloo West Animal Hospital. She is aware of greyhound norms.

[Guest DarkHorse]

I don't know of any dog that "behaves" when no one is home to watch them, just because they want to do the right thing. Dogs are like little kids. If they want to get into food, bully their housemate, etc, they will. Especially intelligent dogs, they know that no human is there watching them. Some dogs simply can not be trusted to have full run of the house, or to be alone with other dogs, when no one is home. That's where dog-proofing, babygates, muzzles, etc, come in. It's good that you are using muzzles, but if you are concerned that he is bullying your other dog then maybe you should separate them. I have gate hoppers here too, but there are other solutions (tall ex-pens, large crates, ex-pens with a top, 2 babygates stacked together, etc).

 

We have tried these. He knocks baby gates out of the doorways, busts out of crates and ex-pens, all to the detriment of himself and our apartment. He has injured himself or done damage any way we have tried to contain him. The only thing we haven't used is the pure steel crates and we quite simply can't afford one. We're lucky as it is that he has only pulled nails and scraped himself up with his great escapes. In our choice between messes and him hurting himself, we chose messes.

 

Him pottying in the house, jumping gates, busting out of crates, sounds like SA. I get that you've done alone training, but maybe he needs more? Maybe you being home from school over the winter break confused him and messed up his schedule? Maybe meds is the next step? Also, are you using an enzymatic cleaner to clean the messes? If not he can probably still smell it and will continue to mess in that spot.

 

The alone training we did (the second time) was over that break. I wasn't just home straight for that break. I did the carefully timed and scheduled departures that make up alone training. At first leaving just for a walk down to the end of the hall and back, then down a floor and back, etc etc. I can't maintain the exact same schedule for every semester and I can't not have exam breaks and oddly timed days during that period. He was having troubles before that happened and worsened steadily before during and after my exam period. The vet, rescue and I all agree that without any signs of distress (panting, pacing, whining, etc) meds will just mask the problem. And yes, we are and always have been using enzymatic cleaners. He chooses different spots almost every time he messes.

 

 

There was a point where we were taking him out almost every hour... we went down to do laundry, were gone not even ten minutes and came back to poop and pee. This was 15 minutes after his last trip. After three weeks of only going outside.

So he was good for 3 weeks? That is great! Do you have a fenced yard or do you walk him? Maybe he hadn't gone potty when he was last outside and he held it until you left, then he got upset.

 

As we are in an apartment, we walk him every time and ensure that he does his pees and poops on roughly the same schedule as per normal. He had peed three times and pooped on that trip. He shouldn't have needed another trip out until bed-time (that trip was at 8:00ish) and shouldn't have pooped until the next morning. And yes, the fact that he didn't pee for three weeks because he was only left alone for the beginnings of alone training was great... only we were only up to an hour and a half at that point and he suddenly stopped progressing and regressed. Not just the one time but consistently through the next almost two weeks.

 

But sometimes we can be gone for 2 hours with no problem.

If he can be fine for 2 hours then he CAN hold it and not mess in the house. This means he isn't pooping and peeing everywhere the minute you are gone, just because you aren't there to scold him. If that were true he would do it every single time. There IS a pattern to his pottying in the house, you just haven't discovered it yet.

 

Yes, of course he can hold it if he feels like it. Trust me, if there's a pattern, it's about as convoluted as possible. It isn't coats, keys, purse, shoes, mail, garbage truck, neighbours or anything else we can figure out. Thee only "pattern" we can see is that he does it when he feels that he needs to or it will make him feel good. It took me three days of wandering around the apartment in pyjamas to figure out that putting on real clothes wasn't a trigger.

 

He was left alone once outside of the alone training leavings within that month and only for 90 minutes.

The longest time he was away from you during that month was 90 minutes? That might be part of the problem. He became used to you being there and now he can't handle it when you leave. Alone training isn't something you do once or twice and then it sticks forever. Every time you change your schedule you need a refresher course for the SA dog. How did you acclimate him to you going back to school after winter break?

 

No. The only time he was left alone OTHER than our planned training session was the one 90 minute period in our second week of alone training. We were up to four hours with those trips by the time I went back to school. The four days before I went back, we did three hour trips in the two time slots I do them in now. Now he is alone for those 3 hour blocks (12-3 and 12:30-3:30) every alternating weekday (or was up until this week). The alone training was building up to those three hour blocks... and he still can't handle them if he doesn't want to.

 

I am very rarely gone for more than three hours, as I am a student and have classes.

It sounds like he is overly bonded to you, and he is not left alone enough. Sounds counter-intuitive I know, but if he is so used to seeing you except when you leave for class, he can't handle not seeing you during that one class. Have you tried slowly increasing the amount of time you are gone?

 

I am gone other times than the three hour blocks, but those are the consistent ones that happen every single weekday. We often go on three or more hour shopping trips on weekends and hour or two trips in the evenings. I am curious as to how making my three hour class trips four or five hours will help when with the three hour trips every day, he still misbehaves on our 15-30 minute runs to the corner store? He is alone for "about" 5-6 hours a day on a normal day and regardless of the length of time we're gone, he's still got the same chance to mess. I'm confused as to how a longer period of consistent away time will change things. He is alone for a little less than a normal work day, just normally in three blocks in a day rather than one or two. Part of this is due to us taking him out... I will often go to class, come home, spend an hour on homework and taking them out, then head back to the library for about two hours, then come home for dinner, then do a run of garbage, groceries or recycling that will take me about 30 minutes. So that's 5.5 hours approximately over the day. Would being alone for 7.5 and 5 instead of 3 really change anything considering the 3 doesn't stop messes over the 30 minute breaks? It doesn't seem to help when we do end up doing five hour trips on the weekends...

 

 

We have tried everything from taking him out every hour, to right after meals and before we leave, to three strictly scheduled pee breaks plus a scheduled walk a day. None of it made a difference in our chances of a mess if we left.

It is possible that you didn't stick with one method long enough to see a difference in behavior. How long did you give it before you decided it wasn't working?

 

Taking him out every hour was the first step in our re-potty training and lasted about a week before we slowly lengthened the time between breaks. The other two we gave about a month each with very minor alterations.

 

If you do have an odd trick or tip I'd be happy to hear it, but saying "oh, you're not training him right" simply isn't helpful because we've done everything we can think of to train him right.

 

We've done potty training, alone training, treat training and clicker training.

No one is saying you aren't training him "right". We can tell that you have tried. But the thing is, there are a million different ways to do alone training (for example). Some are more effective than others. Very simple things like jingling your keys too much before you leave, or talking to the dog, or giving him too much attention, can make ALL the difference. One tiny change in the way you do things could be the breakthrough you're looking for. Even in clicker training if you don't time the reward just right you don't mark the behavior properly, things like that.

 

Nobody is explicitly saying we're not doing it right, but telling us that we need to potty train him is redundant. Of course we've tried potty training and alone training. We've tried a couple different methods. Unless someone has a specific idea to give, saying "potty train him" is more than a little insulting. We HAVE potty trained him. We've tested out as many cues as we can. Sitting around fully dressed for a half hour then getting undressed. Moving keys and purses around. Not even taking keys or a purse. Talking to him or not even looking at him. The only sure cue is us not being there. Everything else provides the same chance.

 

We have done potty training and alone training as close to exactly as we can and not only has it not worked but it hasn't even helped. Not only has there been no solution but there has been no progress and indeed the opposite of progress.

Now that's not true. You just said above that he didn't potty in the house for 3 weeks, and you have had "a few times in a row good", and for a month he only pottied 75% of the time. If the training was not helping at all he would be pottying in the house 100% of the time, and he certainly would not have gone 3 weeks without an accident.

 

He never ever pottied in the house 100% of the time and the three weeks he went without accident were when he was being potty AND alone trained. At the point where he pottied again, he was going out every 4 hours and being left alone for about 90 minutes. And he pottied on a 10 minute trip to the laundry room 15 minutes after going out. The only way the training was helping was not giving him the time to mess in the apartment. In regular life, we can't take him out every 2-3 hours and never be gone more than an hour, which is the only time he wasn't 75% likely to mess. Indeed, he's messed on a more frequent basis SINCE the training than before, although in line with the progression of his misbehaviour.

 

 

we cannot do any more than the training we already have done.

It sounds like you have made up your mind already that if the thyroid test is negative, you're done. If that is the case then I would return him to the group sooner rather than later, don't bother putting him through a bunch of tests.

 

If his problems are caused by a medical problem, returning him to the group won't solve them. Medication will. Without testing, we can't know if he has a medical problem and therefore can't know if it's in his best interest to stay with us or be returned. Yes, if he's medically sound and there's no other reasonable, we're done. For his sake, for Araley's and for ours. We will put him first as much as possible but when we can't fix his problem with who we are and what we have, putting him first means letting someone who CAN deal with him do so. Maybe his problem IS that our schedules aren't exactly the same every day. We can't fix that and it would be selfish to keep him just to say that we didn't give up. Maybe his problem is that he needs a dog-door. Again, something we can't do for him.

 

The point of the explanation of the situation was not to have people tell us the obvious ways to deal with the problems. We've tried the obvious ways. We've tried the not-so-obvious ways. As far as we are aware, we have two choices if his thyroid is normal. Either we keep trying slightly different iterations of training techniques while all four of us suffer, or we accept that right now we are simply not capable of providing the dog we love with what he wants or needs. I don't want to give up. I hate quitting and I hate admitting that I'm simply not good enough. I don't need sermons on how I should try this training and that training to make things better. I am not a bad or stupid person. The very first time he marked (after his initial training period) I knew that the first thing I should do was potty train. I went online, read articles for an evening and started potty training him again. When that didn't work, I devoted a month to that and SA training. When that didn't work I went to obedience classes. When that didn't work, we went to a professional. When that didn't work, we contacted the rescue and asked if they had any suggestions. We were told that it would be in his best interest to bring him back. That if we kept trying, we risked making him miserable to the point of him becoming aggressive.

 

I am between a rock and a hard place. I want to be able to make this dog happy and I want him to work with our family. I would do as much as I could to do what's best for him. The only problem is that I have two respected dog people who have met and know this dog telling me I can't do any more for him without risking his safety and that of Araley. On the other hand, I have this forum jumping down my throat telling me there's more I can do without actually telling me what. Telling me that he needs potty-training as though I'm completely useless and haven't done that. Or telling me that the fact that it didn't work can only mean that I didn't do it right, as though a dog can't act out of something other than not knowing better. If he doesn't know better, I don't know how to show him how and if he does, I don't know how to get him to care.

 

This is not the first night I've been kept up trying to figure out what I can do. Not one but three people have said that there's nothing more that can realistically be done. I still don't want to have to accept it and I'm still looking for something that can fix it all. It's hard to accept that I have to hope for an illness to keep my dog. I don't want him to be sick but I don't want to fail him and myself. As much as I want to hope for some answer, being told by people who haven't seen the sheer amount of ideas and training we've thrown at the wall in hopes that something will stick... being told that they think I can do more just leads to me racking my brains, the archives and google for something and anything that will help. In the end I just end up coming up with things I can't do anything about... like having a rigid daily schedule for myself, or having a dog-door or even just a backyard, or having a pack with a strong alpha dog.

 

I can't figure out the answer to this problem through logic or reason so the only option left is trial and error. Is it really fair to force him and Araley to live through that with no guarantee that it will succeed and a good chance that it won't soon enough to matter? I mean, I understand that people want every adoption to work out perfectly, but in their exuberance to try and do so, they're basically saying that I should feel bad because I don't want to submit my dogs to weeks, months or even years of failed attempts at figuring out what exactly the problem is. I don't want to say that I don't want to find the answer... I just don't want to say that my finding the answer is in their best interest when I've been told outright that it probably isn't.

 

This thread REALLY wasn't meant to be a debate about whether I've tried every training technique that I possibly can or whether there is actually a solution. I was just trying to figure out the reality of the thyroid being the solution. Please, unless you have some crazy technique that you really don't think a reasonably intelligent and knowledgeable person would come up with... don't try and tell me that I'm missing something obvious. Once I have a chance to talk with Bill, and (if he says to) fully check Dexter's thyroid, then I WILL be going over every bit of training I can to make sure I haven't missed anything. But telling me that I've missed something or that I'm just not trying the right thing is really only going to lead to me feeling guilty and a good chance of two dogs being punished because accepting a bad match and moving on is taboo and all mistakes must be swept under the rug so that no dog is ever bounced for any reason other than life-or-death.

 

Please don't act like I'm throwing Dexter away rashly because he's made a couple messes. I really am trying to do what's right for him... and it is costing me emotionally, mentally and physically. Please don't tell me just to throw him away without trying reasonable methods of determining if the problem is fixable. I am just trying to determine if I can find out the reason behind his actions without resorting to blind guessing. If I can't, then I will do what I have to for his well-being.

 

Until then, can we just answer the questions about his thyroid and not rake me over the coals that I've already painstakingly taken myself over?

[Guest DarkHorse]

why don't you try tethering him to your waist with his leash whenever you're home? i had to do that with Loca for well over a month for many of the same behaviours that you've described. that will enable you to have the opportunity to constantly correct and praise him. secondly, maybe you should switch to a greyhound savvy vet. try Michelle St-Pierre at Waterloo West Animal Hospital. She is aware of greyhound norms.

 

We have done the tether when we re-potty trained him the first time. He is (almost) well-behaved when we're in the apartment, so tethering him doesn't do anything, as we can't tether him to us when we're not there. Tethering him didn't improve his listening or heeding abilities once he was let off. It definitely didn't change his misbehaviour when we were gone.

 

We have been going to Waterloo West. After Dr. St Pierre didn't do a proper exam and then their receptionist (and two vet techs) refused to believe us that Dexter needed a full panel to check his thyroid and not just a T4... and then Dr. St Pierre couldn't even go over the panel or contact us about it.... needless to say we aren't exactly impressed.

 

And now I AM done discussing training options.

[Batmom]

If

 

-1- he is going to the bathroom thoroughly when you do take him out,

-2- he has been checked for UTI and intestinal parasites

 

then

 

from your other descriptions it sounds like he *does* have separation anxiety and I would disagree with the rescue and behaviorist about meds. Something like Clomicalm or Xanax could be the thing that tips the balance for him and makes him "get" the alone training.

[robinw]

i don't understand. you've come asking for advice and you've had input from some of the best on this board. why are you so quick to dismiss them? who knows, he may have a combination of health and behaviour issues going on. aside from the aggressiveness, he sounds exactly like Loca after i first adopted her. besides her very tough behavioural issues (some of which linger), she has bee prone to tough-to-diagnose UTIs.

 

ETA: DarkHorse posted to ask for advice. if she posted about the behavioural problems she described, i bet everyone would be encouraging her to have his thyroid checked. that's exactly what she's doing. i also have to say that i think it's sooo unfair to suggest returning the dog every time somebody posts with a problem.

Edited April 9, 2009 by robinw

[Guest DarkHorse]

i don't understand. you've come asking for advice and you've had input from some of the best on this board. why are you so quick to dismiss them? who knows, he may have a combination of health and behaviour issues going on. aside from the aggressiveness, he sounds exactly like Loca after i first adopted her. besides her very tough behavioural issues (some of which linger), she has bee prone to tough-to-diagnose UTIs.

 

ETA: DarkHorse posted to ask for advice. if she posted about the behavioural problems she described, i bet everyone would be encouraging her to have his thyroid checked. that's exactly what she's doing. i also have to say that i think it's sooo unfair to suggest returning the dog every time somebody posts with a problem.

 

The reason I am "dismissing" everything is simply because all of it is a repeat of what we have already tried and when I say that the response is simply that I "didn't do it right" or "didn't try the right thing". We have consulted with a professional and with the head of the rescue as to our training. Neither can come up with anything that has a reasonable chance of working. With the fact that his behaviour is escalating despite training, it is now a question of what is best for him and for Araley. While I do understand that people want to help and will respect that they want to give an opinion, I did not ask for training advice and I certainly didn't ask to be treated like I'm useless, told the most obvious answers and then when it's made known that I have tried their suggestion, just told that it's got to be my fault that it's not working and that I'm doing it wrong. I am sure there is probably some crazy and random "thing" that I can do that might help a bit, but the likelihood of finding it before he does progress to a dangerous level is not good and torturing him, Araley and ourselves trying to find it is simply not in anyone's best interest.

 

I am searching for a solution that is safe and reasonable for all involved. If I can't find one, it is best that Dexter have the chance to find what he needs elsewhere. I will admit that if his thyroid is fine, I probably will return him. What I won't do is say that because I can't find the solution, I'm a bad person or that I should give him back before this reasonable option is looked into. We have spent six months trying to figure this dog out. This isn't just an "Oh, some trouble that I can't solve instantly... I'll just quit". This is a question of the quality of life of not just Dexter but Araley and ourselves. And people are ignoring that it exists in favour of acting like I can't possibly be doing the right thing if I haven't fixed this yet. I can't possibly go through every single thing I've tried in order to convince people that I'm not stupid or horrible and regardless of me saying it, they are insisting on acting like I am by giving me blindingly obvious advice and then dismissing my attempts as just not right or good enough. Yes, I understand that the very next thing I try COULD be what he needs... but it could also be that he needs a backyard with a doggy door... which he won't be getting for five or six years. It could be that he needs both of us to have the same schedule every day... which he might not ever get, but definitely not for at least another four years. It might be something else we haven't come up with, which might take us anywhere from two days to two years to forever to figure out. It might not exist with us because his problem might just be us. The fact is that we don't know what the answer is and we're not willing to hurt both dogs by insisting on figuring it out despite their misery and ours.

 

We are not medicating him because SA does not cause disregard for others. The common theme in all his problems is that; disregard. We have taped him alone and shown those tapes to the behaviourist. In none of them does he show signs of anxiety or being upset. If we put him on meds, they make knock him out or make him drowsy but they won't make the disregard or unhappiness or whatever the root of all THREE problems is go away... it'll just let us pretend that it doesn't exist. And that might mean that he starts acting out in different ways. It might mean that we don't get to see the progression of his reactions to the problem until it's too late and he does attack us or Araley. I don't disagree with medicating for SA... but he has more than just SA and until we find the cause, medication isn't a cure, it's just a soother to make us feel better and while it's doing that, we might be missing something important. Yes, if we can fix the other problems or at least figure them out and he still has SA, we will treat it. Right now, though, it would at best solve one problem while leaving the others to fester. At worst, we would be medicating a non-existent issue in such a way that it would interfere with our ability to deal with the actual problem.

 

A big issue is that everyone is treating this like three separate problems, when all signs show that they're not. All three problems are caused by one "thing" that is the problem. Unfortunately, we've manipulated as many "things" as we can. At this point, we COULD try to deal with each problem individually and maybe even do a little, but we're still letting the main "thing" live. We can belly band and diaper and separate the dogs but if the problem is that he needs a yard to run in four or five times a day then all we're doing is solving the signs of the problem, not the problem itself. It's like punishing a dog for growling. Sure, the growling's gone, but then you have no warning the day he finally snaps at someone. Dexter's disregard or uncaring is his warning that he's not happy. If we don't figure out WHY, then one day he will simply snap at someone... and we won't have any warning that it's coming. All people are doing is suggesting ways to make the growling stop, when what we want to do is find the kid that's poking him while he's trying to sleep.

 

The one thing Bill suggested made an unfortunate amount of sense. Basically, Dexter with us is like my second year of university roommates. For the first little while, while things were getting settled, we co-existed tolerably. Then my liking for quiet between 10pm and 8am started conflicting with my one roommate's nocturnal schedule. Then his use of the TV conflicted with the other roommate's addiction to Battlestar Galactica. Then my liking of clean conflicted with the fact that I was living with two late-teen males. So on and so forth. While none of us were "wrong" or "bad" we simply could not coexist happily because of who all three of us were. Same thing for Dexter. Something about living with us just doesn't sit right with him, only he doesn't have a voice to complain so he simply does whatever he wants because doing so is more rewarding for him than getting along with us. Just like the nocturnal roommate progressed to playing video games loudly all night, Dexter is simply doing whatever he wants as long as he can get away with it. He doesn't like us interrupting him with a shout or physically removing him from whatever he's doing, so he avoids the behaviours that get that behaviour. Just like my roommate didn't like me throwing the power and so would turn the noise down if he heard me getting up to do it. It didn't mean he respected me or that he stopped hating the situation... just that he recognized that behaving that short amount of time was better than continuing with his actions. When I wasn't able to shut the power off, he enjoyed his "rewards" immensely... because he felt no guilt, remorse or... well, anything over how I was feeling. That's how it seems to be with Dexter... he doesn't behave because he wants to please us or anything of the sort. He behaves for an immediate reward or to avoid an immediate negative punishment. Without one or the other, both of which require us to be there, he does what he wants. And yes, I know greyhounds are stubborn and don't always do what you want... but there's a little stubbornness, there's pushing the boundaries and then there's completely ignoring the pack for his own desires. Just like someone who disregards everyone else in his selfish pursuits, being like that is bad in dogs too. Now whether he's like it because of who he is or because of his not being happy is debatable.

 

So people, please stop ignoring half the symptoms in order to say that you know better than two experts and the two people who live with it what the problem is. Opinions or suggestions that actually recognize all three problems are welcome but one more suggestion that "proper" potty-training will solve everything will quite simply be ridiculous and over the top. Please stop acting like the only reason he has his problems is because I can't do any kind of training the "right way". Please stop saying that there is one magical answer to the problem unless you can actually come up with one answer that would actually explain all three problems and doesn't involve impossible changes in our life. Whether I jingle my keys when leaving or not cannot feasibly cause bullying. And please, stop answering a question about a medical condition by telling me that your obvious idea of a training method will magically solve everything, even the problems that can't reasonably be related. And ask yourselves is you would make two dogs miserable for an unknown amount of time on the off chance that you can discover what's making the one unhappy enough to bully the other one into unhappiness. Ask yourself if being in home that causes symptoms of extreme unhappiness is actually what's best for a dog when there isn't any obvious cures for the unhappiness. Ask yourself if you'd wait long enough to turn your dog aggressive rather than admit that you simply didn't have what he needed, despite all proof that it was the case.

 

I came asking for medical advice. I got some (thank you to the first few posters) and then I got a bunch of people telling me that the only possible reason for a dog to have behavioural problems is that the owner is doing something wrong. I asked for what reasonable thyroid results were and if a thyroid problem could have the described symptoms and was ignored and instead told that my six months and hundreds of dollars spent on training attempts weren't what was needed and that instead the very basic training I did first along with a slight twist would not only solve the individual problem but the whole issue. I asked about a basic test and got told that the grouping of problems that I have and have identified as having a common cause don't actually have a common cause and that I can deal with each individually without having to find what that common cause is, despite the fact that training each issue individually hasn't worked.

 

So again I'll ask people to either answer the question as to what a normal T4 level is (and I've realized that it's high because the numbers people all know are for the freeT4, not the regular one) and if thyroid issues have ever caused a similar personality change. If you don't have an answer to these questions, then please refrain from telling me once again that I can solve this if only I try hard enough and wait long enough. I will not punish my dogs by making them stay miserable just so I can please every person who thinks they have the tiny change that will fix a major problem. Not when I'm being told by reliable sources that there is a good chance that the change needed is another family for one.

 

I have done my best to be polite when replying to implications that I am just not doing enough/the right thing/a headstand while clapping. Now please, do your best to be polite and don't tell me that I should ignore the strong likelihood that my dog is miserable just so that I can test out a few unlikely fixes. Doing the right thing in the case shouldn't end up being me forcing a potentially unfixable situation to continue to the detriment of my dogs.

[Batmom]

We are not medicating him because SA does not cause disregard for others. The common theme in all his problems is that; disregard.

 

If this is what you believe and you're not willing to entertain other points of view, please return your dog.

 

If this is what your behaviorist told you, I'd question the behaviorist's credentials. If your behaviorist also told you that SA doesn't manifest itself by the behaviors you describe, I don't think I'd need to question the behaviorist's credentials -- I'd know not ever to use that "behaviorist." SA manifests itself in many different ways. Very often by things like going nuts in a crate and eliminating shortly after the owners leave the home. Your dog is exhibiting classic symptoms.

 

"Disregard for others" isn't a canine concept. You're expecting your dog to act like an adult person. He won't. Ever. He's a dog.

 

 

BTW, I don't know what you've read about meds for SA, but if they make the dog drowsy or sleepy more than slightly, for the first few days of dosing, they're the wrong meds or the wrong dose. They don't "drug the dog up." They're more like antidepressants for people, not sleeping pills.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Batmom

[Guest LindsaySF]

ETA: DarkHorse posted to ask for advice. if she posted about the behavioural problems she described, i bet everyone would be encouraging her to have his thyroid checked.

No we wouldn't, because not one of his behavioral issues is indicative of low thyroid. Aggression is sure, but he is not being aggressive, just pushy and bullying like dominant dogs do. Pottying in the house and acting independent are not signs of low thyroid.

 

 

i also have to say that i think it's sooo unfair to suggest returning the dog every time somebody posts with a problem.

I'm the LAST person to suggest someone return a dog. But the OP is coming across loud and clear to me. If this isn't a thyroid issue, they are done. When an owner gets to that stage, rarely will you change their mind. Quoting from above:

 

Sure, there is THEORETICALLY more to be done, or we could do it for longer, but not with our lives and resources.

 

The RESCUE is saying there's nothing more we can do after this test.

 

Honestly, after six months of trying everything under the sun, we aren't even giving up... we're just out of other options.

 

We simply cannot FORCE it to work and we cannot change the facts of who we are.

 

we cannot do any more than the training we already have done.

 

Yes, if he's medically sound and there's no other reasonable, we're done.

 

Either we keep trying slightly different iterations of training techniques while all four of us suffer, or we accept that right now we are simply not capable of providing the dog we love with what he wants or needs.

 

And now I AM done discussing training options.

 

 

The vet, rescue and I all agree that without any signs of distress (panting, pacing, whining, etc) meds will just mask the problem.

It is a common misconception that SA must always involve signs of distress. Some dogs don't have classic signs like panting or crying, but urinating and defecating has a calming effect on them, that's why they do it. They ARE upset and anxious, they just express it differently.

 

 

Maybe his problem IS that our schedules aren't exactly the same every day.

It's possible. For many dogs with SA keeping a consistent schedule is key.

 

 

This thread REALLY wasn't meant to be a debate about whether I've tried every training technique that I possibly can or whether there is actually a solution. I was just trying to figure out the reality of the thyroid being the solution.

I get that (and a few of us suggested that it is likely NOT the thyroid, because he doesn't exhibit any of the symptoms). But we are trying to help you. We don't want you to feel like if the thyroid test is negative that your ONLY option is to return him. No one is "jumping down your throat", telling you that you're "missing something obvious", or "raking you over the coals". People are trying to help you.

 

 

If

 

-1- he is going to the bathroom thoroughly when you do take him out,

-2- he has been checked for UTI and intestinal parasites

 

then

 

from your other descriptions it sounds like he *does* have separation anxiety and I would disagree with the rescue and behaviorist about meds. Something like Clomicalm or Xanax could be the thing that tips the balance for him and makes him "get" the alone training.

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Guest LindsaySF]

We are not medicating him because SA does not cause disregard for others. The common theme in all his problems is that; disregard.

If this is what you believe and you're not willing to entertain other points of view, please return your dog.

 

If this is what your behaviorist told you, I'd question the behaviorist's credentials. If your behaviorist also told you that SA doesn't manifest itself by the behaviors you describe, I don't think I'd need to question the behaviorist's credentials -- I'd know not ever to use that "behaviorist." SA manifests itself in many different ways. Very often by things like going nuts in a crate and eliminating shortly after the owners leave the home. Your dog is exhibiting classic symptoms.

 

"Disregard for others" isn't a canine concept. You're expecting your dog to act like an adult person. He won't. Ever. He's a dog.

 

 

BTW, I don't know what you've read about meds for SA, but if they make the dog drowsy or sleepy more than slightly, for the first few days of dosing, they're the wrong meds or the wrong dose. They don't "drug the dog up." They're more like antidepressants for people, not sleeping pills.

Agreed with this post as well. We were posting at the same time.

 

DarkHorse, I would also seriously question the behaviorist you are using. Your dog's behavior is classic SA. He is not pottying in the house because he is "stubborn" or because he has "disregard for others". He is simply upset that the humans have left. Pottying has a calming effect, that's why they do it.

 

They don't need to pant and whine to have SA or to benefit from medication. I'm sorry that your vet won't even consider trying meds given your dog's behavior. If I were you I would get a different vet and try different medications. If you are willing to look into thyroid problems and meds, why not look into anti-anxiety meds? I honestly think it can help you and your pup. Best of luck.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[robinw]

i have to agree with SA. I'm still living through it with Loca.

[Guest DarkHorse]

At this point, I'm going to ask the mods to lock this thread. It seems like everyone is choosing to preach their particular opinion rather than give constructive advice to a question asked.

 

We will follow what the rescue tells us to do. We will do what is best for Dexter. If you disagree with that, that is your opinion but I think it is awfully arrogant to think that you know better than two people who have met, examined and worked with a dog when you are providing advice from the other side of a computer screen.

[MaryJane]

Try searching google for "thyroid disorders bipolar" - you may find some helpful information