Lexie Still Mushy

[rschultz]

so its been almost two months since she has had mushy poop never have it before in her life. she is 3. did all the blood, stool tests. did the antibiotics, panacur. she on the low residue food for two weeks now.. I dont want to do an endo or colonoscomy if i can help it. It is soo costly plus i dont want lexie to go through that. I tried the pumkin made it worse. she has been on the dried beet pulp about a week now. no change. Any other suggestions? She is fine other than that but it is not her "normal poop" I really dont want to try raw so any other suggestions please would be helpful. I am at my wits end. The vet thinks it is in her upper intestines. he at wits end too...lol

[Batmom]

Can't remember what foods you have tried other than the low residue? Might be worth trying something really different for her.

[rschultz]

she was origionaly on purino pro plan salmon and chicken. we tried the biljac cause a lot of people said that would firm her up. that didnt do a thing either. ;( Her low residue that she is on now is iams prescription. I guess iams bought out the old eukanaboa.

[Batmom]

Hard to know where to start, isn't it? Depending on your thoughts of her recent foods, you might try something like IAMS Adult Mini-Chunks -- they have a bit more fiber than some and sometimes put an end to the squirts; anything you have mixed @ 70% / 30% with Science Diet Oral Care (that would be the 30%) -- again, to add fiber ... or, instead of focusing on the fiber end, try something relatively low in fat (but containing primarily animal fat rather than vegetable), such as Eagle Pack Holistic Duck & Oatmeal or Nature's Recipe Fish Meal & Potato.

 

A temporary alternative to feeding raw might be to feed cooked, starting with just one ingredient (such as beef) and very very very slowly adding other things (such as chicken, rice, barley).

[rschultz]

vet sub called back. he said we can try tyleson powder for two days and see if any improvement. ya mix 1 tbs with 9 tbs cornstarch then mix with applesacue or cheese. seems like a lot of cornstarch but he is just giving me enough for two doses to see if any change. he said if it works he can get the diluted stuff but this will be the cheaper route. I am glad i have a vet practice that is willing to try different things before a big procedure.

 

i tried the chicken rice bland diet. I thought that for sure would help. that also didnt do anything. its is almost like no matter what she eats its still a problem. Anyone use the tyleson powder? I hope it helps..sounds real yummy with all that cornstarch lol

[rschultz]

are there any side effects from all that cornstarch or the tylesin powder? we are taking her to visit my mom in law who is in assited living. Hate to have some big conrstarch accident..lol

[Batmom]

Haven't used it so don't know. You might PM Burpdog -- she might know.

[onrushpam]

LynnM has been going through this with her Joplin and has finally found some success. She's at work, but I'll make sure she sees this when she gets off.

[Guest mandm]

I sure wouldn't want to put that much cornstarch into a dog with an iffy stomach. I used to give my greyhound Tylosin (Tylan). It is super bitter & that is probably why the vet is recommending that you mix with cornstarch. I've also heard that you can mix it with powdered sugar. I think the easiest is to just put the med in empty gel caps and then pill the dog. I think that's what most people do. Some dogs, not generally greyhounds, but other breeds which are not as picky, will eat their food with the Tylan sprinkled right on the food. I can't imagine that would work with a greyhound.

[Guest greytmonty]

Our vet added probiotic powder to Monty's diet and it has done the trick.

[MaryJane]

You may want to try feeding cooked oatmeal and hamburg in the mornings for about a week and see if it helps.

[Guest momz]

We had similar problems when we first got Ziggy. He was on the Rx diet, tyson powder (had to hide it in a folded up piece of cheese) and probiotics for about 4-6weeks. Pumpkin/yogurt seemed to make him worse. He can't have chicken or liver based treats (Big D), but he can have PButter. It finally seemed to settle his gut when we were on the special diet for awhile, and then I VERY slowly (like over 2-3 weeks) switched him to Iams Lamb and Rice. He has had WONDERFUL poops now for over 6 months! The Iams has beet pulp in it - and it really makes a difference for him. But he does get mush poops with certain treats and extra-exciting days, like the park/vet visits. But his poops firm right back up the minute we get home. We call them "nervous" poops. I would just try to keep his food constant for at least a month, no extra treats and then see how he does. I know how hard it is to find out what works! Good Luck!

[SAVED2]

Medimusal half oz twice a day.

[Guest IrskasMom]

 

 

My Boy is on Pro Plan Beef/Chicken and Rice with a half can of Wet ProPlan mixed in and some Rice . He always has firm

Poop. Just recently somebody on this Board said Metamucil worked Wunders for her Dog . See if you can find that Thread.

[grey8greys]

Flossie was having very runny poos for about 2 weeks, nothing seemed to help, I tried Metamucil ( read about it on another thread) and within 3 days, her poos stared to take some shape. I gave her one capsule in the morning and 2 at night mixed in with her food.

[Guest SoulsMom]

Ok, are her poops "mushy" or watery big D? Is she still losing weight? That would make a big difference in what one would recommend. Also, is she on Iams I/D? And is it wet or dry?

[tbhounds]

Tylan is VERY bitter--most dogs while not eat it--you may have to put in into empty gel caps. I think at this I would start treating for IBD. The endoscopy would be beneficial in diagnosing IBD--simple procedure but, I understand that it's costly and with these economic times it might not be feasible. I would ask your Dr about trying Metronidazole, B-12 injections and getting her started in Budesonide (rather than Pred). The only problem about starting them on a steroid before getting a biopsy is- if it turns out to be a type of cancer the chemo will not be as affective as it could be if you hadn't started the steroid. I encourage you to get referred to an internist that is comfortable treating GI disorders.

[Guest houndhome]

I echo SAVED2 - Metamucil 1/2 teaspoon twice a day. Get the smooth mix, unflavored. It did wonders for my dog when nothing else would work. (FYI - I'm not a newbie - my account messed up for some reason, and they had to rebuild me.)

[Guest LynnM]

I'm going to talk about a couple of things...

 

My old man- July 1995 model- has had a pretty tough life. Some by his making, a lot at the hands of his people.

 

I think I'll go in sort-of reverse chronological order...

 

Right now, at 13 1/2 he has a definitive diagnosis of Inflammatory Bowel Disease. We came to this diagnosis based on his previous history, lab tests and how his digestive system has responded to steroids when given for other, more transient illnesses. The definitive diagnosis came when we ran (actually re-ran) his TLI, PLI, Cobolamin, Folate and his levels were textbook for IBD. Very low levels. He now receives weekly B12 injections, in addition to some other meds. It makes all the difference in the world. Incidentally, it's cheap, easy to do at home, and if I had to choose a condition in an old dog to manage, this would probably be it, but then, I'm immune to the things that can come out of a dog's back end. You can't shock me.

 

Now, to backtrack a bit. We went through this once before, when he was about 7. We ran all the diagnostics then, and his levels were completely normal. My vet and I did not feel he was bad enough to warrant an exploratory surgery... he had enough "good days" (I mean, he had control, even if the poop was mushy) that I didn't want to open him up. We got a pretty good remission on long-term flagyl... started out at a much higher dose than what is used for IBD now, and worked our way down. He still had a few bad days, but it was possible to keep weight on him, and he was a pretty successful coursing dog. Pretty damn good, if you consider that he was better than 2X the age of most of his competitors. Flagyl/metronidazole is effective on a lot of dogs, and at a very low dose. It's also quite inexpensive.

 

See, the thing about steroids for IBD in a younger dog is this... you DO need to do the intestinal biopsy before starting on steroids. IBD and lymphoma/lymphosarcoma start out with symptoms that are close to identical. Lymphoma/lymphosarcoma is treatable in a young dog. If caught early, it's one of the few cancers in dogs that can get a remission. BUT, if steroids are prescribed for IBD, and it turns out to be cancer, the treatments for the cancer are rendered ineffective by the steroids. That's why, if the labwork (TLI-PLI, etc), comes up inconclusive, the biopsy IS necessary. Sometimes (as was the case with Joplin in his younger years), Flagyl can get a remission of IBD. When that happens, there's no need for the biopsy, since it all gets better with the Flagyl and life can go on as normal.

 

Now, I'm going to describe a couple of things that have worked for us:

 

When he was younger and Flagyl alone gave us a very normal life:

Amforal (Kanamycin/Attapulgite): This may have to be compounded, as it's not always available. It's the closest thing to putting a cork up your dog's behind. It's a combination of an antibiotic that's minimally absorbed (it pretty much runs straight through) and old-school Kaopectate.

Even when he had his long remission, I ALWAYS keptAmforal around for the odd squirts.

 

Now:

Acupuncture: Yes, it sounds kinda hokey on its own, but my vet and I have always taken a "whatever works" approach, and Joplin has always responded to acupuncture. There are acupuncture points that respond to the various TCM equivalents of inflammatory bowel disease. There are a few points and herbs that he responds wonderfully to and some that do NOTHING. It was the same when we did acupuncture to loosen up his stride as a coursing dog.... there's a lot of trial and error involved.

 

We also use budesonide (brand name Entocort HC). This is the same med that's often prescribed for humans with Crohn's disease. It's expensive but tends to be much more focused on the GI tract and far fewer side effects than prednisone. IF your vet determines that steroids are indicated, and budesonide is prohibitively expensive (it runs $100/month or so, depending on the dosage and size of the dog), there is no reason to not consider prednisone ($4/month, but side effects are often more pronounced... worth a try, though).

 

Fortunately, we've not reached the point where other DMARDS have been needed. I'm not experienced in the use of azathioprine. sulfasalazine, methotrexate, but these are occasionally used. I'm not sure I'd go there with a very ancient dog, but with the young ones, it's worth considering all options.

 

Where foods are concerned, right now we're using Eukanuba low residue. It's working okay, but I'm not totally convinced. Joplin is having a really hard time keeping weight on, even though his digestion and stools are great. Even though he's not doing any work, it's hard for him to get enough calories on this food. When he was coursing, and had a good remission, he did well on Nutro High Energy. I'm considering giving that another go, even though, on paper, its fat content is too high for a dog with his condition. I'll keep you posted if I try it. Right now, we're supplementing with Blue Buffalo Fish/Sweet Potato. I've not noticed anything great or awful about it. We'll see.

 

So.. for my dog, right now what's working is Entocort HC, flagyl/metronidazole, and Eukanuba Low residue, along with B12 injections weekly. Eventually, the goal is to get him to injections every other week, and the entocort every 3rd day, but I'm in no rush. The most common screwup with IBD is going too quickly in progressing from step to step or to increasingly long intervals of meds.

 

Clear as mud?

 

Lynn

[Guest ChasesMum]

hmm LynnM I wonder if that's the stuff my vet calls "Kaobiotic". works like a charm. (Chase had colitis)

 

 

hopefully something works. I'd be more likely to buy empty gelcaps from the pharmacy before mixing it with cornstarch but if it works...

[PrairieProf]

Have you tried digestive enzymes? I started using those with Beth about a week ago and they seem to have made a HUGE improvement in her poop (that, and/or she's really doing well with her new food, Pro Plan Selects salmon). I got a kind they sell at Petco called Fresh Digest; at any rate, they're widely available and don't require a prescription. I'm using probiotics too (Fortiflora), but I think the enzymes have made more of a difference. Perfectly firm poop this morning -- I could hardly believe it.

[rschultz]

she is on th eima/eukanoba rx low residue dry and i freeze in ice cube trays the canned for treats. all of the threads are so helpful. It is not diarrhea anymre just mush. she doesnt go more often actually only twice a day she use to go three times. I think she lost a few pounds cause the food is so low in fat. I am going to copy what u wrote lynn so i can go back to it again. ty so much. I know if she had diarrhea this long or no control I wouldnt hesitate for the endo/colonoscomy. I keep hoping what u guys and the vet suggests work cause I would hate to go though all that with her and the specialist puts her on the same diet. Her only test that was a alil off was the folate. I think vet said it was border a lil high not low. this may sound umm wierd too but I dont want to have to fast her for 48 hours for those procdures. I couldnt bare to watch her not eat for that long. I am glad you all are here to help. Thanks so much. I will keep ya updated. Oh, I did up the beet pulp since we have a 40 pound bag..lol. her mush wasnt so mushy tonight...lol

 

i have had her on probiotics about a week now

[Guest LynnM]

There is no harm in fasting a dog. Those big eyes will look at you like they haven't eaten in a month, even if you fed the dog 10 minutes ago. Some of the tests that can diagnose digestive issues are dependent on fasting. No big deal.

 

Lynn

[stlgrey]

It might not be her food. Has your vet tested for Tick Diseases and as I mentioned before Histoplasmosis, Blasto or Valley Fever? Sierra had the same exact symptoms. We thought it was IBS or Cholitis, WRONG. It turned out to be something else. The histo was in her intestines!! I couldn't hurt to ask the vet to do a test for a tick panel about $150 and lymph node stains $110. That is how we found out what was going on!!!

 

If she has an intestine disease, changing her diet or trying other foods is not going to help anything, you need a proper diagnosis. BTDT with Sierra.

Edited November 29, 2008 by stlgrey

[Guest longdogs]

It really depends on whether your dog has something like IBD, in which case I've nothing to add, or whether it is diet-related, a physiological condition or an infection. As she was OK before it still seems suspicious. Low-residue foods seem an odd way to go when combined with beet-pulp which is by nature high-residue. Have you tried feeding raw meat or meaty bones? If so, what happened? Pure raw muscle meat has virtually no fibre and produces a very low residue, although the result can be very soft, and should be low irritant provided there is no allergic reaction. Meaty bones tend to result in 'bullets' due to the bone fragments that act like paste. It could help unravel what is going on in her insides.