DunesMom

Ah -- found this paper at NIH about what happened to the human vaccine. Interesting about the rare genetic susceptibility to develop resistant arthritis after getting the vaccine (NOT apparently caused by the vaccine, but the vaccine triggered an existing potential genetic autoimmune response, it seems), and how this changed the cost-benefit ratio by including pre-testing for this rare genetic susceptibility. Wonder if that's the same with dogs. The overblown media storm scared people, so sales dropped, so they pulled the vaccine from market, even though it was 80% effective and safe for almost everyone. If I lived in New England and the vaccine was available, I might get it. The human vaccine required two boosters and then you were done, unlike the canine, which is annual. The paper linked above sounds good, but it was conducted and published by Schering Plough, who makes the vaccine. My vet and I are pretty critical of pharm-run experiments, though she did recommend the vaccine in the first place, which is why we got it. She's not crazy about the annual boosters but there are no studies that she could find that even looked at efficacy past one year. Imagine that. She doesn't do the AVMA-recommended three-year vaccinations on her own dogs or mine (except required rabies; others we do every 7 based on efficacy studies). She does do them on all other patients, because her clinic owner mandates it. Although I've decided against the canine Lyme vaccine (as we fight Lyme in Kipper), in general I am a proponent of vaccination and think people who believe vaccines cause autism are misled. But, in the late 80s/early 90s, when I was an editor for a clinical veterinary magazine, I read the original studies which proved that over-vaccination was bad for dogs and cats. That research was attacked back then by the pharm companies and veterinary-practice organizations that stood to lose a lot of money if they lost the income from annual vaccines. Working at the magazine, I was in the thick of correspondence about the attacks on the researchers and saw a lot of exposed studies from the pharm industry -- studies that agreed with the researchers they were attacking, but that had either never been published or that had not included those results in what was released. The attacks were brutal -- personal and professional destruction in the name of money. It left me with an overall bad taste in my mouth. Not for vaccines -- I believe in them -- but for pharm-backed studies. And it left me cautious about harm vs benefit and cost-benefit. Because in the end, very very few dogs infected with Lyme will become so sick that they die. Few dogs will even have symptoms after exposure. Most infections are easily cleared with antibiotics. And Lyme can't spread dog-to-dog, like influenza, so it's not needed for overall public health. So if you use tick control and don't live in the high-risk areas on the CDC map, it seems a waste of money at best. I can understand vaccinating if you live in a high-risk area. But for us, even visiting New England every year and now treating Kipper for Lyme contracted while vaccinated, I can't justify the vaccination. Diagnosing and treating the Lyme plus the recurrence cost the same as three years of vaccinations. (Or will be the same when we're done; it's been cheaper so far.) In our case, even when we're in New England, Kipper has never been in a wooded area until this last summer. So I highly doubt that the vaccine prevented anything the first two years, when he was only in our house, treated fenced yard, and on the beach. That said, I don't have a bone to pick with anyone who does vaccinate -- I only want to explain my position, since I'm the lone wolf. Just don't ask me about the rattlesnake vaccine! Edited for typo!

Thanks for all the great advice! All I have on hand is Metacam and buffered aspirin. But, he just got up, stretched, and walked to the door with only a mild limp, then RAN into the yard to sniff -- first time in over a week! He had been a tripod with a limp on one of the "good" legs, so this is a huge improvement. It appears that the doxy is finally kicking in today. We do have an appt on Tuesday to discuss different drug combos, but let's hope this won't be necessary. BTW, we're going to keep him on doxy for up to 90 days, as long past 30 days as he can tolerate it (we are using a prepackaged probiotics plus Zantac, which really seems to help). Vet mentioned studies showing long-term use for chronic infections seemed to help - anyone know if that's long enough for a chronic infection? Symptoms came on 4 months after probable exposure, and recurred one week after a 15-day course of doxy.

Hope someone knows the answer! Kip's on doxycycline for the Lyme, but it's responding more slowly this time. He's finally eating again and acting happy and normal, but he's still limping badly on two legs. One really appears to hurt. The drug info we got doesn't say anything about aspirin, but...with the diarrhea, I don't want to chance some stomach issues. Anyone know if we can try buffered aspirin on top of the doxy?

If you know of newer studies or papers, I'd love to see them! I looked at our local med library but found nothing newer in the databases. Am also curious about the human vaccine furor -- my understanding was that it was taken off market because it didn't earn a profit, not for efficacy or other issues? My vet called an immunologist she knows and he confirmed that to his knowledge, the efficacy is better with the newer vaccines, but still varies in the 75% to 90% range. He said he wouldn't bother with his dogs, unless he couldn't use tick repellants and vector control (like, dogs that run free in wooded areas or can't tolerate tick repellants). One other thing I learned was that the tick does not need to attach and feed for a number of hours -- a single bite can transmit, meaning that the tick that lands on the dog and bites once, then dies/falls off because of the systemic meds, can still infect. I don't know where I heard that the tick needed to attach for 12 hours or more, but it appears to be false. Thanks!

I am so sorry for Kipper...and you. Advantage does nothing for ticks. It only works on fleas. It was the Advantage Plus Flea and Tick, sorry. Should have specified! thanks. Today he's finally responding to the higher dosage--took nearly a week this time. Vet suspects other TBDs in addition, just not the common four around here or Anaplasma (tested for those).

My vote? No. Have done it, will not do so again, even though we travel to a heavy Lyme area every summer. ACVIM position paper. See Section 21 & the chart on the next page; most board-certified ACVIM vets recommend AGAINST the vaccine even if you live in an endemic state, for many reasons. One of which is that the vaccine is only between 50% and 90% effective, and only against one strain of the bacteria that causes Lyme. Note that the vets who recommend the vaccine were both in the minority and were all in private practice, and one reason they cited for recommending it was financial. Canine Vector-Borne Disease Organizationpage on treatment and the vaccine. Why I won't do it again: The research, plus -- Kipper was vaccinated, on Advantage, and still got Lyme. We're fighting it now, second round, and the doxy isn't working like it did last time. Yes, we did a C6 SNAP, at Protatek, for Lyme + the four usual suspects, so we're not seeing antibodies from the vaccine (and besides, he's anorexic and limping with joint swelling in three legs, though no PLN, thank gods). You might say, well, even if it's only 50%-90% effective against one strain, it can't hurt...except it can. Read the ACVIM paper. Not to mention that the vaccine + vet visit fee in my city will set you back almost $100, more if they insist on first running titers because the vaccine is useless if your dog has already been exposed. A well-written and footnoted article that explains why I wouldn't use the Lyme vaccine again even if Kip hadn't gotten it. But after all this research, I do now believe in treating dogs with high titers for TBDs, even if they don't show overt clinical symptoms.

ZAP! (where's the icon for electric shock??) I'd love to use the electronet fence or a deer fence or low single wire, but we're right up against a busy sidewalk on the way to the beach/park. Though the fence would be on our property, I'm pretty sure the first time it zapped a wandering toddler, or a drunk college student, either we'd be sued or someone would rip it out and destroy a few plants for good measure. But the scarecrow motion sprinkler came today and we're setting it up tomorrow!

We just ordered the ScareCrow water jet, thanks. Since it's a small front yard, it's going to be tough to set it up so that it doesn't nail passers-by, but we're trying to figure it out. I've used the perforated "ScatCat" mats in potted plants with success, but they'd cost a fortune for a larger area. I also ran across the Cactus Fence made in the UK, which would work on a fence top. I know buried chicken wire stops digging (put it under the mulch/on top of soil), but not soiling. I think I'll cut the mats into random pieces, so that water can get through but an animal couldn't walk far without hitting one. BRILLIANT!! Won't help the off-leash/no owner crew, though, and we have plenty of those. I like you. :devil

PS -- I should add that we designed this front yard specifically to cut down on the nonstop problem of off-leash dogs pooping/peeing in our front yard/patio, which we use every day, by installing a stone fence 2' in from the sidewalk. But the fence has an entryway for our house, and ends beside a giant sago palm on the other end. Dogs just go through the entry or around the end, and owners just let them, whether on or off leash. We've talked with neighbors who just leave their dogs out front, unattended and off leash, all day every day, but it hasn't stopped them, and AC doesn't respond unless there's an attack. So what I really need, is a repellent for dogs & cats when I'm not standing out there.

We have a big problem with dogs and cats who trample, pee on, and poop in our newly planted landscape and around our front patio. When the plants are established in six months to a year, they will be pretty resistant to dog urine burn. BUT...the plants keep getting damaged before they can take root, thanks to off-leash dogs whose owners just don't care, and extenda-leash dogs whose owners let them come up in our yard anyway. Spray/shake deterrents haven't worked. A 14" temporary fence around the whole yard hasn't worked (yesterday I watched a guy let his dog hop over it and back...seriously, people! What is wrong with you?) My idea: Use the vinyl long-toothed carpet runner for deep pile, cut it to fit around the plants like it was a weed mat, and then bury it under a thin layer of mulch, spikes up. It wouldn't be very noticeable, it would deter dogs and cats stepping on it, and it would keep weeds at bay, to boot. Think it will help? Any other ideas?

Depo didn't work any better for Dune than oral steroids and Tramadol. I didn't worry as much about his liver, because he was 14 by then and every month was a gift. But when I asked exactly this same question on GT several years ago, the response was mixed. As Kikibean said, it will work or it won't, and as long as there aren't contraindications for the injections, you may as well try them.

Another fast way to teach it is to teach by serendipity. When he spins, click (if you're using a clicker) or use your "you did a good thing" marker, like a high-pitched "yes!" and treat.* If you catch him spinning a couple times and treat, he'll start figuring it out pretty fast. Then you can add the cue word, "spin." *(This assumes that you first teach him that the "yes!" = tasty food, which is a quick thing to learn. Say it as you treat, several times. Do this a couple times during the day. Then, try saying it and see if his ears don't pop up, expecting a treat. Now he knows "yes!" = treat, and you can use it to "mark" any behavior you want.) Clicker is faster/better than voice, but it can be done!

Another option while camping is an electronet or E'Net fence, if your hounds aren't going to put their feet up on the fence. You don't need to make it electric. It's a temporary, flexible woven-twine/wire sheep fence that rolls up small and has easy-to-place posts (assuming you're not on concrete). My parents keep 100' of it in their RV and use it to set up a yard around their campsite, so their two Belgian Tervuren can run free around the campsite. Here's one of the many sheep suppliers that sell them, and you do see them on farm auctions or even CL on occasion.

Do check medical; she could have a UTI if she's asking to go 2-3 times between the time you get home from work and bedtime, and then again twice during the night. If nothing turns up medical, try this: Right before bedtime, walk/turnout and be sure she's done her business. When she gets you up, use a deep voice to say "go to bed," or whatever you use to tell her to lie down. Then ignore ignore ignore. FWIW, Kipper periodically decides he wants to patrol the yard for critters at 3am and noses me to go out. I tell him to go to back to bed, and he does, with an annoyed sigh. But if there's a chance he's sick -- his tummy is growly, he didn't eat much that day or ate something new or unusual -- then I suck it up and go out with him.

This probably won't be popular, but I think the cats need to learn to be very afraid, and the fastest, most effective deterrent is for them to be chased. I'd try to scare the cats with a loud noise, then let the muzzled dog chase after the cats are safely near the fence. Or, I'd use the squirt gun to get them running away, and then let the muzzled dog out when they're safely near the fence. Why? Because by holding the dog back, the cats are learning not to be afraid of the dog, and that the yard is safe territory. Some day, this will end in disaster -- the collar will slip, your hand will slip, a dogsitter will forget, something. We had the same problem with our neighbor's cats, and we couldn't see all of our yard to know whether they were in the yard or not before letting him out. After Kipper started darting out the back door in hot pursuit of anything in the yard (he does that even when it's empty), they've learned. They now seem to just pass through, and not linger. That's a major change from their behavior with our previous dog-safe greyhound or in the months between dogs. I am not advocating an attempt to let your dog catch a cat. But I do believe that the fastest way for the cat to learn not to treat your yard as their safe personal space is for the dog to become a major scary threat.

Lots of folks have taught greys to fetch, and I'm sure they'll chime in! Kipper fetches, but we didn't really teach him. He started by running after toys we tossed in the house. Then we tossed a tennis ball at the park and he ran after it, but once he reached it, looked at us in confusion. Eventually, he picked it up and ran around chomping on it, and we praised like crazy. Then when he always picked it up and was delighted to catch the bounced balls in the air, we started running away from him after he got the ball -- so it became a two-way chase game to him! Now he almost always brings it back, until he's tired. (another fun game is the lure pole...it's Kipper's favorite, by far, and you don't need a big hard for it!)

Both Dune and Kipper had this occasional weird "hack," sometimes followed by a reverse sneeze, sometimes not. Kipper has allergies; Dune didn't. My vet's second grey also did it. Benadryl generic as Costco is great! We always have it on hand. It makes Kipper a little sleepy, but not much more than normal!

Dune air-snapped and happy snapped and nitted for the whole 11 years we had together, and not once did he ever do it with anyone other than me and then DH. Kipper does it with me and a bit with DH, but has never done it with anyone else. I think it's their way of communicating happy with their people, and it's very different from rowdy biting or warning snapping, so I encourage it. I wouldn't worry about it being dangerous; that's a totally different type of snapping, and dogs definitely know the difference, even if people don't.

Fantastic! Way to go Ady Bea (and her humans, too)!

Dune and Kipper both have had this problem on ice & snow. You could try the Musher's Secret; it did really reduce the cuts and discomfort for Kipper. But otherwise, "no running in snow" was our solution.

He's gorgeous (and very very lucky)! Welcome home, Graham!

He's beautiful! Love the blankie pics! PS -- it took my DH's two cats many months to come around when Dune & I moved in. Del buddied up after a few months. Clyde never got to where he liked Dune, but after about 18 months he stopped growling.

We went through this with Dune. At 11, he was diagnosed with arthritis -- no sign of hip issues and really very little sign of anything arthritis-like in the x-rays, but the vet at the time said that was it. He did well on the liquid Metacam for two years, but slowly got weaker. Then did our new, greyhound-savvy vet, say she thought it was LSS. She had us try tramadol, and he went downhill fast on it. Tramadol causes some weakness and instability, so his sudden weakness and falling might be that. When we tried tramadol, Dune fell, and had a really hard time getting up and down. That change was almost overnight. When we went back to metacam, he got stronger for a while, until the LSS just progressed beyond help. good luck. ETA: the shots didn't help Dune much, no more than oral steroids