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4My2Greys

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    What Now? Unexplained Diarrhea

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted · Edited by 4My2Greys

    To get a more accurate comparison between foods you want to compare on a dry matter basis.

     

    This from the Hill's website on dry matter %s

    ¹The nutrient in the product after moisture is removed. It is used to make direct comparisons of nutrient profiles of products with differing moisture contents.

     

    If she is dealing with bacterial dysbiosis it is just as important for the food to be high fiber as well as low fat and low protein. The only food that fits that bill is the W/D dry. Goodness knows every knows how I feel about the Science Diet prescription foods, but it seems they can be of benefit at times. However, if your going to use one it needs to be

    the appropriate one for the situation and not the one others happen to be using.

    I'll say again I'm not saying this is her problem, but at the very least it should be mentioned. Vets may have the training, but they are not always spot on in their diagnoses. If that were the case Nadir would not have suffered with a painful corn for over 2 years while vets diagnosed him with various things from diskospondylosis to having a partially torn cruciate ligament for which they put him on NSAIDs that I'm still dealing with the damage from.

     

    ETA: I like MaryJane's suggestion of homecooked even better than the W/D. The low protein, low fat, high fiber could be accomplished with a non-fatty fish and oatmeal combination. Also the addition of pre- and probiotics.

    What Now? Unexplained Diarrhea

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted · Edited by 4My2Greys

    Most dogs don't suddenly become very ill because of a food they've been doing well on. There are exceptions, but not many. The two more likely exceptions would be inflammatory bowel disease, and pancreatitis. Both but particularly the latter become more common as the dog ages.

     

    While a reasonable number of dogs do have fiber-responsive diarrhea, the requirement for insoluble fiber is much more relevant to the human digestive tract than to the canine one.

     

    Without further testing, it isn't possible for us -- or the vet! -- to make a diagnosis.

     

    Jey I believe she has not been on that food that long, long enough however for a problem like this to develop. Chris has also mentioned that this is not necessarily new. It has gotten much worse this last week, but she has been having these problems for about the last month.

    I agree about the testing, but in the meantime she needs to eat something that will help with the diarrhea.

    When you say fiber responsive diarrhea are you referring to diarrhea caused by lack of fiber or the use of fiber to treat existing diarrhea? For the former I don't think it was caused so much by lack of fiber, but by the high fat and high protein. If the latter is the case many have been helped with the addition of pumpkin, which adds fiber.

     

    ETA 1: At the very least this needs to be mentioned to the vet as a possibility. Vets may have the training, but they don't always think of different possibilities for the cause of the ailment. That is why it behooves us to do some research and ask questions.

     

    ETA 2: The information in this article indicates that dysbiosis can be a problem in dogs.

     

    http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Research_Notes/Microbes_and_GI_health_of_dogs_and_cats.html

    What Now? Unexplained Diarrhea

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted · Edited by 4My2Greys

     

     

    For food I would honestly give her whatever doesn't make her vomit. What was she eating before all this started? If you feel that isn't a good idea, then maybe time for ZD or ZD Ultra (canned to start with).

     

     

    If she is dealing with Bacterial Dysbiosis, specifically putrifecation dysbiosis it was caused by a diet high in animal protein and high in fat. Correct me if I'm wrong Chris, but I believe Canidea Pure Sea was being fed, which has 40% protein, 20% fat and negligible fiber fits this diet description. To go back to something that may very well been the cause of her problem makes no sense at all. As far as Z/D goes, it is relatively high in fat and doesn't have the fiber necessary. Prescription W/D on the other hand with low fat, high fiber and low animal protein however, fits the description for what needs to be fed.

     

     

     

    For food I would honestly give her whatever doesn't make her vomit. What was she eating before all this started? If you feel that isn't a good idea, then maybe time for ZD or ZD Ultra (canned to start with).

     

     

    If she is dealing with Bacterial Dysbiosis, specifically putrifecation dysbiosis it was caused by a diet high in animal protein and high in fat. Correct me if I'm wrong Chris, but I believe Canidea Pure Sea was being fed, which has 40% protein, 20% fat and negligible fiber fits this diet description. To go back to something that may very well been the cause of her problem makes no sense at all. As far as Z/D goes, it is relatively high in fat and doesn't have the fiber necessary. Prescription W/D on the other hand with low fat, high fiber and low animal protein however, fits the description for what needs to be fed.

     

    ETA: Dry W/D and not the canned has the high percentage of insoluble fiber needed if dealing with bacterial dysbiosis. It however does not have the soluble fiber that is also needed. This could be remedied by adding oatmeal or lentils. To make it easier on her system I would soak until mushy then put in a food processor.

    What Now? Unexplained Diarrhea

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    Chris I found the information I pasted lower here

    http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C583962.html

     

    Based on the information I wonder if W/D with a 8.8% fat and 27.8% insoluble fiber compared to I/D with 14.3% fat and only 4.4% insoluble fiber wouldn't be more appropriate for Dorie's condition.

     

    Putrefaction dysbiosis results from diets high in fat and animal flesh and low in insoluble fiber. This type of diet produces an increased concentration of Bacteroides species and a decreased concentration of Bifidobacteria in the stool. It increases bile flow and induces bacterial urease activity. The change in composition of the gut flora leads to an increase in bacterial enzymes which, amongst other things, increases cancer causing substances and interferes with the body's hormones. As there is a decrease in friendly bacteria, the production of short-chain fatty acids and other beneficial nutrients is decreased. There is also an increase in ammonia which can have negative effects on numerous bodily functions.

     

    Treatment and Prevention Putrefaction dysbiosis is usually managed with a diet high in both soluble and insoluble fiber and low in saturated fat and animal protein. These dietary changes work to lower the concentrations of Bacteroides and increase concentrations of lactic acid-producing bacteria (Bifidobacteria, Lactobacillus and lactic acid streptococci) in the colon. Supplementing the diet with defined sources of fiber can have variable effects on colonic dysbiosis. Insoluble fiber decreases bacterial concentration and microbial enzyme activity. Soluble fiber, on the other hand, tends to elevate bacterial concentration and enzyme activity, at the same time raising the levels of beneficial short chain fatty acids. This disparity may explain the superior effect of insoluble fiber in the prevention of colon cancer.

    What Now? Unexplained Diarrhea

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    Chris reading back through your posts it seems Dorie's condition is getting worse after eating the

    I/D. I would try something else. If your concerned about electrolytes you can give pedialyte. I think of bigger concern is getting her stomach settled so she can keep food down. When Nadir gets sick I can't fast him. It makes things worse. So I have to give him something easy on his system. Since he can't have rice I feed him Tilapia and potatoes. If it's real bad I just feed Tilapia.

    What Now? Unexplained Diarrhea

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    I too have given metro when Nadir was not eating. The vet said it serves a double purpose in getting rid of the nasty little bugs and helping to ease inflammation of the intestinal lining.

    I hope she is doing better today.

    Just a suggestion, but when Nadir is having problems I don't give him any kibble. He does better if I bake some Tilapia and adding potatoes to make a stew for him.

    Aortic Mass Or Clot In Left Atrium

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    This is why Dr Couto puts hounds on enalapril and aspirin when he finds protein in the urine of a hound. I always wince when I read here that "my hound has had protein in his urine for years-- don't worry about it".---yikes, I think potential time bomb. If you are finding proteinuria one should check the blood presure, run a urine culture and a protein creatinine ratio (UPC)--a UPC over >.2 should be followed up on.

    Glad Lazer is eating and starting to feel better- praying you can get his GN controlled--it' is possible with medication and a proper diet. Hugs to you both!

    Edited to add that I would per your Drs recommendation would start the aspirin asap.

     

    I agree. If your vet suggests asprin, please do it. And I personally would not be introducing anything into the system of a dog on several meds like essential oils. Just because it's "natural" doesn't mean it's harmless.

     

    I find it funny that someone can post about their dog having trouble with NSAIDs and a few dozen people will respond that their dog does just fine. They completely ignore the dangers that are even warned by the maker of the drug because afterall a vet has given them this drug so it must be safe.

     

    If you read Lorinda's 8/19 and subsequent updates you will find that Lazer is still alive-he was scheduled to be PTS that day-and improving because of the essential oils and other holistic things she has chosen to do. Just because one doesn't understand or chooses not to educate themselves about something doesn't make it the wrong thing for others to do.

    Kelly Had A Seizure

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    So sorry to hear of your loss.

    Run free by the Bridge Kelly.

    :gh_run

    I hope you don't think this is out of order, but it may help your dog and other dogs in the area if you can have a necropsy done. Given the Kidney involvement it may be a mycotoxin thing even from going in the woods or water etc.

     

    This was my thought also when I mentioned this earlier.

    Did Deramaxx Kill My Dog?

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted · Edited by 4My2Greys

    I'm going to have to disagree with those who say this doesn't sound like the results of an ulcer. The following is from an article on Peptic Ulcers:

     

    Perforation

    Sometimes an ulcer eats a hole in the wall of the stomach or duodenum. Bacteria and partially digested food can spill through the opening into the sterile abdominal cavity (peritoneum). A perforated ulcer can cause peritonitis, an inflammation of the abdominal cavity and wall. The symptoms of a perforated ulcer include sudden, sharp, severe pain. (This could be the reason for the sudden arching of her back and loss of bladder control) Immediate hospitalization and surgery is usually required.

    Narrowing and obstruction

    Ulcers located at the end of the stomach where the duodenum is attached may cause swelling and scarring. These ulcers can narrow or close the intestinal opening, and can prevent food from leaving the stomach and entering the small intestine. As a result, a person may vomit the contents of the stomach.

     

    I will say though that these are probably not common occurences with ulcers so if this was the cause of True's passing please do not beat yourself up over it. I'm so sorry this happened but I'm glad your bringing up the possibility that her death could have been the result of NSAID as a warning or caution to others.

    NSAIDS can be of great benefit to many dogs, but they come with serious risks. When giving a dog NSAIDS people need to listen to the signs their dog gives them re problems that it's use may be causing and not all those people who chime in saying their dog had no problem while on said NSAID. I really wish vets would inform people more on the potential risks and what signs of trouble to look for when dispensing them. If that had been the case maybe you would have questioned why she was off her food and not chalked it up to her being picky.

     

    ETA: I just want to add that even though Nadir has NSAID induced IBD as a result of long term use of NSAIDS I would use them short term for acute severe pain, but with something like Sucralfate to coat and protect his stomach. What I'm trying to say is that your short term use was reasonable considering her problems.

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