greyhead

Our 5-year-old has arthritis in his paws. Instead of Rimadyl, the vet gave us Vetprofen 100 mg last time, a.k.a. carprofen. She said it does the same thing, but cheaper. We only give it as needed, because he also has kidney issues. I don't remember how much we paid exactly, but I checked a website for Allivet, and they had it at 69 cents per caplet.

We're so very sorry for your loss...but glad for the loving forever home he had with you. Mary

Our LS guy is only 8 (yesterday, actually) and is also a nester. But we now have every kind and shape of bed there is, I think. DH just got him a huge and very thick rectangular ortho bed from Mud Bay, and he loves it. But he spends just as much time on the other beds, and I think it's good that he's able to choose which firmness and configuration he thinks he needs at any given time. It also doesn't seem to hurt that he has to share them all with his younger brudder... just makes them all more attractive! Mary

How so? I've heard this before, but I don't understand why. (Not challenging the statement, just curious.) Mary

I didn't mean to make it sound in my post that the vets here will not give medications when needed, they just will not write you a prescription for it so that you can look for it somewhere else cheaper. Their more than happy to dispense medicine at their overly inflated prices. The story I always get is that they do not trust the quality of some of the drugs gotten over the internet. I wasn't talking about cheaper or Internet drugs. What I was referring to was the much earlier posts about Tramadol, which your vet said he doesn't carry but which would be safely available from a people pharmacy and, as other posters pointed out, does not require hospitalization for administration. Happily, you and Nadir seem beyond that issue now. But it might be good to think about if and how your vet will treat for pain, or not, in the future. All the best, Mary

Is it just me, or does the refusal to dispense or even just prescribe necessary medication seem unethical? Anybody know of a vet accreditation group or something that one could inquire about this? Or maybe I should post this in the Soapbox section, where I could *really* let off some steam! I didn't want to bring up this line of thought previously, but now that Nadir is doing so much better -- -- I feel better about it. Hang in there, Judy and Nadir, you're doing greyt! Mary

I can't even imagine. So sudden and shocking. I'll confide that I am taking comfort in the knowledge of what a great home you gave him and can only hope it comforts you too. Mary

We just wrap it in a big meatball of canned food. Works very well...most of the time.

We have an almost-8-year-old with back end weakness, serious enough to make him lose his balance and have to sit down in lieu of falling down. Our vet didn't think it would necessarily be productive to do x-rays or an MRI at this point -- just expensive. She referred us to a sports-rehab vet in our area. That vet, also a "she", is doing acupuncture & chiropractic, and we saw the difference within hours of the first treatment. Then we added some chinese herbs that she mixed up, and that seems to be helping also, especially as his face-to-face appts. are getting less frequent. (We have to put the herbs in gelcaps and bury those in meatballs, cuz he's sure not touching them any other way!) She also said to exercise him, in terms of walks, as much as he wants to go, because that will help keep joints and spine lubricated and muscles strong. (That lubrication bit is more powerful than one is tempted to think, as I found when I herniated a disc a few years back!) We had been holding him back on distance because our other grey has arthritis in all his paws, and early kidney disease, and sometimes can't do more than six blocks total. Now we bring sore-toe dog home if he's had enough and take weak-back dog back out for further mileage until he turns for home. (Fortunately, he's smart enough to know when he still has enough left to GET home, and I do hope that doesn't change anytime soon.) I do hope this post is along the lines of info you were looking for. I'm very hopeful that the holistic vet will have something really helpful to offer you, and it's great that you have one in your area. I can't imagine what I'd do if we didn't... We'd probably have to move to where one was! Mary, and nuzzles from Spencer and Shane

Heal up fast, big guy! Mary and the other Spencer

We have one who is turning 8 with significant back end weakness. Our vet referred us to a sports-rehab vet who does accupuncture, chiropractice, and Chinese herbs. It's not that expensive, and we're getting really good results fast. First two treatments were weekly, the next will be in two weeks, then three weeks if results are holding, and ultimate goal is to treat every 3-4 months. It's not clear what area you live in, so I don't know if you have access to a vet like this. We've also now started Schiff glucosamine with MSM, available at Costco and only a little expensive. This vet recommends human-grade rather than canine-grade products, as does our regular vet.

I've had some sick animals over the years -- cancer, kidney failure, etc. Pain/discomfort always seems worse at night. The vets told me that it wasn't my imagination. For whatever biological reason, it IS worse at night. So I'd take that into account in assessing their functioning and in administering meds. Hope you get some rest, some improvement, some resolution, whatever you need.

Yup, Protatek is who I meant when i said I called the lab. I got the gal that said to use common sense, or to just analyze the problem, or however she put it. Must've gotten the one unhelpful person there. Anyhow, thanks to both posters who've offered DETAILS, like ice isn't needed. I wrote it wrong in my original post, cuz the actual phrase I saw from my vet's note was "cold pack" -- maybe the kind of thing you get for camping. And thanks for mentioning the centrifuging; I'll make sure whatever staff takes the sample knows that. Sorry I'm such a dithering wacko about this. I'm really upset -- and can hardly think straight -- cuz Spencer grabbed an adolescent squirrel in the yard today and shook it pretty hard. I persuaded him, loudly, to let it go, but the squirrel lost part of his tail, the last inch, and maybe died later from the shock. I actually even know which squirrel it was, so I'll be watching for him. I know Spencer was just doing what comes naturally, but ... I spent the day majorly bummed. Probably should be thankful that it has only happened once in the three years we've had greyhounds! Thanks so much, Mary

Thanks for sharing your and Bodie's difficult and touching story. It made me cry too. Take good care of yourself, okay? Bodie would want that. Mary

Dexamethasone can be stimulating to the point of insomnia in humans -- me, for instance. Prednisone does the job for me without the excess stimulation. Just a thought, that changing to prednisone might allow for more rest. And how long was the morphine injection Saturday supposed to last? Seems like it would wear off in a day or two, but I really don't know. One of our greys, who's just turning 8 and having a lot of back-end weakness, appetite and weight loss, etc., is doing much better after only two treatments of acupuncture and chiropractic and some Chinese herbs. In fact, after the first treatment he slept all afternoon and then moved and ate better immediately. Seriously. (And sleeping/relaxing for hours after acupuncture is the usual response, I gather, though some pups/people get energized instead.) I'd be tempted to track down a vet that does that kind of treatment and get Joe in as soon as they can take him, rather than waiting for things to improve first with the medicines. You're both in our thoughts and prayers here. Mary

Spencer has started seeing a sport-rehab vet for chiropractic and acupuncture. She suggested that his low platelets and other symptoms could indicate a TBD, and our regular vet agreed that he should be tested. My vet says she'll draw the blood, but I'm to package and ship the sample to Protatek. I know I'm to use "bubble wrap, ice pack in a baggie" and pack to ensure no leakage or breakage. But I don't explicitly know how to do this. I asked an assistant at the vet's to find out for me, but she never called back. I even called Protatek today to ask them, but the woman just told me to use common sense, basically. She even said she didn't know what I meant by "ice pack." Funny, I was calling to find out what the lab means by "ice pack"!!! So should I use ice cubes in a baggie? Or should I use what Ace makes and calls a cold pack from the freezer? And what should go up against the sample tube first, the bubble wrap or the cold pack? Importantly, the instructions do say not to freeze the sample. I'm sure this isn't rocket science, once you know how to do it. I just don't want to screw it up! Does anyone have experience with having to pack and ship their own blood sample to a lab? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, Mary and Spencer

Looks like we're both right, Stephanie! The following is a great web page from WA State U. on sub-q's for canine kidneys. It has lots of pictures of how to administer them, which should really help if Lucy is going to need them. http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/dog_fluids.aspx Sounds like Gingy has a good plan. A second opinion could be a good thing. Mary

We have a five year old grey with early kidney disease. I'll share what I can with you. The most important urine check for kidney function is the USG, urine specific gravity? Was that included in this workup? This is a measure of how well the kidneys are concentrating waste into the urine. One wants the number higher rather than lower, and the range of normal is very tight, and it doesn't change with being a greyhound. You also need to check BUN, the amount of urea nitrogen in the blood. It climbs along with creatinine if the kidneys are troubled. (Creatinine can also elevate from muscle loss if there has been any weight loss, which is the main reason greyhound values tend to be higher than other breeds.) This is high enough to be interesting -- higher than our dog's, actually. The problem with norms in general is that they address the values found across a group of individuals (dogs or greyhounds in this case), while you're dealing with a single individual. Any given value may not be normal for your dog even if it is considered to be "within greyhound norms." If your individual dog is not functioning well at a given value, it really doesn't matter that many or most other dogs might. An example from a different realm to illustrate: Human norms say it's normal for a person to lose 25 to 100 hairs per day from his/her head. But if a given person usually loses 25 and then starts losing 50 or more per day, they may very well be hypothyroid. On the other hand, a person with a thick head of hair may routinely lose 100 hairs per day and be perfectly healthy. Excessive drinking and peeing, such as you describe, was the first sign we had that our grey might have a problem. Also leakage, which the vet at first was thinking was old age. (Five is old?! I don't think so!) We retested in a month, after using Missing Link, and his BUN and creatinine were back to the high end of the normal range. As well, his thirst/peeing decreased and no accidents. Lately he had another accident and we retested, and his BUN is 34, his creatinine is 2.2, and his USG is 1.016 (low). We now have him on a relatively high-protein food at 32% (Wellness Core Low-Fat) and an herbal supplement from Chinese medicine called rehmannia. Our vets have seen very good results with that, and I'll be glad to tell you how to acquire it if you ask. In any case, behaviorally he is improved -- more energy, longer walks, less thirst. It does sound kind of early to be starting sub-q fluids, but I'm not aware of everything your vet is thinking. On the other hand, twice a week isn't excessive. It is the case that fluids don't cure kidney problems. Rather they just keep the furkid properly hydrated so that they don't develop even more problems from being dehydrated. I would be concerned, though, that extra fluids may mask his true kidney values when you retest. In other words, a more dilute blood sample will show a lower percentage of BUN and creatinine than a less dilute one will. So when you retest, you might want to avoid injected fluids for at least two or three days. At least discuss it with your vet. Food is important in this condition, and the new thinking for treating kidneys is not to switch to a low-protein food early in the disease, because that just causes other problems. Rather, it's important to have enough very high-quality protein. I'd be really interested in knowing whether the USG was tested and, if so, what the value was. If it was tested, your vet probably is knowledgeable about kidney disease. If it wasn't tested, well, maybe s/he knows a bit less. But apart from blood work, how well the kidneys are concentrating the urine is the tell-tale sign. Can't say if you need a second opinion. The way I have come to evaluate vets is how willing they are to research and learn about things they haven't had much experience with. I'd recommend that you get to know the issues in testing and treating for kidney function yourself, bounce your findings off your vet, and see how he or she responds. And ask questions until you yourself understand what things are important and why. I'll be happy to share more, but I don't want to snow you with more than you need to know at this point. Just don't be afraid. You can handle this, and your Lucy can still have a good life. Mary, and Shane the kidney kid

Thanks VERY much! This info is really a big help. Our pup is showing low platelets, though our vet gave me the bloodwork results along with a copy of an article by Feeman and Couto on greyhound bloodwork that indicated that low platelets are not unusual in greyhounds. I'll probably just start my own thread to deal with my questions about our dog and not impose further on dante...'s good nature! Mary

I just logged on just now to check TBD info too. Do you mind if I add a question to yours? The question is: Is there a gold-standard for TBD testing, like a particular university lab or something, the way there is for thyroid? We need one of our greys tested and, if we're going to do it, I want the most reliable testing available. Also, I tried using "TBD" as a search term in the archives here and didn't come up with much. Can someone suggest a better term to get results? Since these questions are pertinent to the topic and perhaps of interest to you too, I hope you don't mind my piggybacking your original one. If you do, let me know, and I'll edit this post out of existence. Mary

I'm so glad you got what you needed. And the maturity you've shown in reaching out and dealing with the range of answers you got is inspiring. Really. Many people would have become angry and defensive. One of our pups, just turning 8, is a big guy and raced too many times (114). He's showing back-end weakness and we realize he's been having stiffness and discomfort for a long time but handling it stoically. Our vet recommended a sports-rehabilitation vet in our area who's certified in acupuncture and chiropractic. He had his first treatments this week and showed improvement the very next day. He has to return weekly for some indeterminate period of time, after which the frequency of treatments will decrease, maybe even to monthly. Each treatment is $65. I don't know if this is even possible for you, but I know this kind of treatment has made big differences to many dogs, and our vet has seen it too, which is why she made the referral. Of course, your pup is at a later stage of the problem, so it might not have as much benefit, but it's something to consider. (Times like this I wish this forum had a mechanism for donating to other members for medical treatments. If sending you $65 would help you with this, I'd send it and say Merry Christmas!) Lastly, I really want to thank you for posting. I know in time our dog will reach the same stage yours is in. The rehab vet says that "when he goes down, he's going to go down hard." And our house has several levels, lots of stairs. So we need to start figuring out what we'll have to do, and it's comforting just to remember that we won't be the only ones who have ever had this problem. So I hope you'll post updates on your experiences, strategies, and progress. I'm sure I'm not the only one who will still be thinking of you after today. Mary, and a special woof from Spencer

We'll be thinking of you and Ember. Mary (and Spencer & Shane)

Our 4-yr-old male developed leaking. Negative for all the culturing/testing, but mildly elevated kidney values (i.e., BUN and creatinine). A first-catch urine sample showed a reduction in his ability to concentrate urine. (I always forget the name of that test, but it's an important indicator.) He had been drinking a lot of water and peeing a lot in addition to leaking. So he appears to be in the early stage of kidney disease. I'm wondering if your pup would also be drinking more if there were more available when you're working. I mention that because nobody else has, and it's something to consider. Some people respond to this by reducing the protein content of the diet. Newer research indicates that that's a mistake in the earliest stages of the problem. Interestingly, this dog has never done well with grain in his food. So we switched him to Wellness Core, Low-Fat version, and he does great. (No excessive drinking/peeing and no leaking.) We also add Missing Link to his food, as omega-3's have been shown to improve kidney function. Wellness Core has a pretty high protein level, at 30% or so, so doing this is kind of against conventional wisdom. But as I said, conventional wisdom appears to have been incorrect, at least for some animals. Just offering this in support of your no-grain or low-grain idea and also to indicate another line of exploration if it turns out that you need another one. Please keep up the updates, and good luck! Mary

Hopefully, things will get more manageable when she's hydrated; the blood will thin out and the vein will become available. So do give her lots of water now. We have a 5 year-old greyhound with recent early kidney failure and an 18-year-old cat who has been getting along fine with it for two years, with special handling. The dog is on a high-protein diet (Wellness Core Low-Fat) because he can't handle grains. But his phosphorus level is within normal limits, and he's not losing protein through his urine. The school of thought we're following is the one that says don't reduce the protein in the diet too much or too early in the disease, because it causes other problems that then harm the kidneys even more. Despite the high-protein food, we pulled the dogs numbers back to the high end of the normal range just by adding Omega-3's to the food! It's easy to do, and it's not something we just pulled out of the air; our vet and others have seen beneficial effects on kidney disease from Omega-3's. Hang in there. It's overwhelming at first, but if you all can get Nelly through the initial rough patch, she may do well for a long time. (Our last cat, for example, with CRF -- chronic renal failure -- lived 5 years post-diagnosis, using mostly just sub-q injections.) Mary

Hoping and praying that they are wrong and that you and Shanti can somehow keep your strength up through all this. You've both held up amazingly, somehow! And you have many of us hanging in there with you. Hope it helps. Mary