greyhead

I know it's late, but is there anybody out there who can share negative experiences with Flagyl? Is it more problematic when prednisone is taken at the same time? I know there's some issue of flagyl toxicity, but I don't know the details at all. He started on it last Friday and takes 500 mg. twice a day. (The prednisone is 10 mg. twice a day.) Spencer has been breathing a bit fast all evening, like 54 per minute or sometimes a little faster. His nictitating membranes have been up, and at one point he started breathing/panting through his mouth. It was time for his thyroid pill (5 mcg twice a day), and I wasn't sure I should give it to him. But after a while, i went ahead. Thing is, he had what we think were some mild seizures when he became hypothyroid but before he was medicated for it. (But as I recall, he took Flagyl shortly before that, when he had tummy problems -- which later turned out to be due to hookworms.) In any case, this is a dog who apparently has at least some tendency toward seizures. For sure, I'm not giving him his meds in the a.m. until I talk to his vet. But any advice/experiences anyone could share in the meantime would be most appreciated. Jeez, and things were going so well! (See "Should We Endoscope/Biopsy" or some such title in H&M if you want history.) Many thanks, to nightowls and early risers.

Wow, that is REALLY interesting! After giving sub-q Lactated Ringers (pre-warmed) for years to two uncooperative cats with CRF, and injecting B12 into the line at the end of each session, giving a well-behaved greyhound a quick B12 shot is a walk in the park...with sunshine, balloons, and a taco cart! But thanks for the good thought!

Hi everybody ~ Spencer's doing much better! Thanks so much for asking. He's like a different dog! We opted to skip endoscopy or surgical biopsy for now, with the vet's blessing, since the treatment of whatever caused his GI distress would be substantially the same no matter what. Starting last Friday he's on Flagyl and prednisone for three weeks, followed by reassessment. I gave him his second B12 (cobalamin) injection yesterday, and he'll get those weekly for six weeks, then bi-monthly for a few months, then monthly for life. It hasn't been explained to me yet why "for life," but I'll find out next time we speak. I assume that the pattern of B12 and folate deficiency shows a degree of GI tract damage such that the ability to manufacture B12 with abdominal or intestinal bacteria, or to absorb them orally, is permanently impaired. But at some point these B12 and folate levels will be reevaluated also. All these tests, by the way, were sent by our local Phoenix Laboratories to the veterinary GI lab at Texas A&M for evaluation. They actually do canine (and maybe feline) GI research there and are a great resource for pups with these kinds of problems. Meanwhile, Spencer's appetite has improved dramatically, as has his demeanor. His eyes are no longer sunken, he's perkier and more energetic, and he no longer makes growly noises to protect his food/treats from his brother Shane. Oh yeah, and he's not trying to eat poop anymore. Interestingly, he doesn't need to go out in the middle of the night now either -- a huge relief for me! I was never sure exactly what he was doing out there, but you don't tell a dog with diarrhea to just go back to sleep! (I suspected he was poop hunting, but the yard's a little too big and there are enough shrubs and trees to block the view that unless I got dressed and went out with him, I couldn't know for sure.) The vet wanted to hold his diet constant for now, since he was eating what he was being served even though his eating was erratic. That makes for fewer complications in evaluating his response to the medicines. After that's done, we'll see how he's eatingand decide if there's a better approach, at least in terms of optimizing the health of his GI tract. It wasn't food that caused this, but food may have a role to play in its management. I'll post again if anything new or interesting develops. Meanwhile, I'll just say that whatever else folks do for pups with GI issues, testing for malabsorption of food/nutrients via cobalamin and folate, and giving cobalamin if needed, seems to be a VERY GOOD IDEA! I see immediate improvement each time he gets a shot. When I have a minute, I'll try to post some links to information on how cobalamin works in this whole process. There's a very good link on it posted earlier in this thread by ahicks too. And I really like the article my vet gave me, but she got it online through the VIN (vet info network?), and I can't access it. I'll see if she can email me a copy as an attachment that I can then either post or send to people who request it. Or can any of you help me with that faster? If anyone has any any questions for me or for me to ask my vet, do speak up! And, as always, thanks SO much for your help!!!

Hypothyroidism, untreated, can cause aching in joints, which can look like arthritis. It also correlates with bad teeth and gum disease. I'm thinking you should request that the bloodwork include a T4 or free-T4 measurement if they weren't planning to do that already. If it would cost additionally, maybe you could do without the x-rays, as Spencer's Greyt suggested, and save a bit that way.

There ya go!

I agree with Neyla's Mom. For one thing, blood in the urine is not a behavioral issue. For another, greyhounds are generally over-trained to refrain from having accidents. By "over-trained" I mean that by virtue of their early lives and strict kennel training, the training makes a bigger impression on them than simple house-training makes on other breeds. This makes it far less likely that they will express psychological discomfort by having accidents. There are plenty of other things they could do instead -- chewing things up, barking, growling, velcro-ing, etc., etc. It's too easy to call something a behavioral issue when all that's going on is that the vet doesn't know what's going on. Just by way of background, I've had one dog whose hookworms were missed due to negative fecals and whose symptoms were then misdiagnosed as due to "emotional problems." His symptoms of hypothyroidism (e.g., aggression) were similarly dismissed initially as excessive alpha behavior. Our other dog was mislabeled as "anxious" because of his reluctance to go very far on walks; turns out he had kidney problems and osteoarthritis in all his paws. I could go on and on. Tests aren't infallible, and sometimes the right tests are not conducted. Even when they are conducted, the results can be misinterpreted (e.g., that a negative fecal means there are no worms). This is not a rant against vets or tests. I respect both greatly. But I am a psychologist by training, and I've observed over the last several decades that our whole culture has encouraged us to see psychological problems where, in fact, the behavior has a physical basis. This is true regarding both animals and humans. So now when I see a behavior change, I keep looking until I find the physical basis for it, and there always has been a physical basis. Good luck. Hopefully, if you keep talking to GT people, you'll get enough information about their experiences to be helpful in resolving this.

Lots of prayers here too.

This is such a complicated situation. I can only admire and sympathize with what it's doing to you emotionally to stay on top of it while all the veterinary partners confer and collaborate. Hang in there. We're all with you.

It's reassuring to know what happened, and it helps others to know what's possible. Thanks for sharing this outcome. Hope you and Ken are getting along well enough.

A wonderful tribute to a sweet character of a girl. So sorry for your loss.

Our Shane started having the same problem, having accidents, leaking, being unable to go more than 4-5 hours without an out. No infection, so the vet proposed to consider it an aging issue -- he was 5 years old!! -- and put him on lifelong medication for that. Further blood testing showed mild kidney disease. So I'd ask the vet to test his kidney values -- BUN and creatinine -- liver values, and take in a first-catch urine sample to check for specific gravity and protein. (The urine will be okay as long as it's refrigerated if you have a late-day appointment.)

So glad it went "well," Robin! I totally hear you about the mixed feelings you've been having, but it's done now, and we'll hope for a "good" report: useful information about something that's treatable! Hope Beau recovers quickly from the surgery and that you get the report soon. Hang in there.

Thanks for this, Batmom, and for the considered reply you gave above. I haven't heard from greycious_gal yet, but she may yet appear. Based on what you and everyone has pointed out, I'm leaning toward the diet-change approach. Would two weeks be enough time to see a result from, say, a steamed chicken/eggshell/vitamin diet? I figure we could spare that length of time before resorting to what right now feels like Plan B to me, which would be medicinal. The endoscopy doesn't sound promising enough of results, and the surgical biopsy seems too drastic for what's currently at stake or seems likely to be the root cause of the malabsorption. So I'll sit with those thoughts a while and see how they hold up! Before we knew that it was hookworms causing his digestive problems three years ago, a holistically oriented vet gave him a product to restore the gut to health, but I can't remember what it was. Did you use anything like that or just let time and hookworm treatment take care of it?

Welcome from Puget Sound, from another 50-something! Thank you for the lovely introduction. Your three girls are very beautiful. You're going to like it here!

Here's the link: http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/dog_wellness_grain_index.html It was listed on your link on the far left as "grain free" options. He has gone from 89 lbs to 82.7. Sounds big, I know, but he has bones sticking out from top to bottom. They didn't do a urine sample or anything that would show what he's doing with protein. I'm probably going to ask for more complete testing. 'scuse me while I bop back to your post to read the links and info. Thanks much!

This happens to our Shane, who was dx'd with osteoarthritis in his metatarsals and metacarpals at age 4. But he's a very stocky, heavy boy. Just thinking that since your Cash is 9, x-rays for arthritis might be in order. We give him a variant on Rimadyl called Vetpro when it happens, and usually once or twice a day for two days is sufficient. And it helps enormously. He doesn't ever say much in complaint, but he looks dejected until it gets set to rights! Good luck! Edited: Oops, missed the picture!

Is there any way our vet can know if the gut has been scarred from the parasites beforehand? I mean, without the endoscopy or full-thickness biopsy?

Hey, Beau, hang in there, man. Hope it goes really well. Luv to your mom too, Spencer

OMG! DH just came back from walking the pups. He said Spencer's poop was mostly formed! And mostly brown! it was runny and yellower at the very end. Nonetheless, we haven't seen anything that good from him in six months! Could yesterday's cobalamin injection have accomplished this? Is it possible that the malabsorption IS the problem, and there is nothing else (other than hookworm damage, for instance)?

Thanks everyone. I still have to decide, but hearing how other people have made such decisions is really helpful. Btw, AJ, I forgot to mention that the only other out-of-whack parameter is low platelets -- not dangerously low, but enough to suggest, along with other symptoms, that TBD testing/treating was appropriate. I'm off to read a detailed PM from Robin. Has anyone gone the medication-without-biopsy route? Thanks again!

Keep editing! I can wait a bit! But thanks for responding, and here's the info. Spencer came to us in Oct of '05. After a month of soft poops plus stomach rumbling, we went through several slow food changes: Canidae, Natural Balance, Timber Wolf, things like that. The rumbling increased, he developed poor morning appetite, and he kept acting like he was being bitten and biting at his sides. After 10 months we got a positive fecal for hookworm. Problem solved. I'd noticed he didn't do well on formulas with white rice or corn. So for over a year thereafter, he thrived on Iams Large Breed with brown rice/barley (plus whatever canned we were using). When P&G bought Iams and changed the formula, he started losing fur on his trunk in small circles, a year ago. (All tests were negative, so cause unknown. Vet thought it might be the food.) So we looked for new foods again and added Missing Link to anything we gave him. (The hair never grew back, but he never developed more patches.) The foods we tried then included Newman's Own, Spot's Stew, Canidae again, Natural Balance, probably a few more I've forgotten. He finally tolerated Wellness Core Low-Fat well, and that's where he has been until recently. That Wellness variety has no grains at all. The pudding poops began shortly after a dental, last July. At first I thought it was from the post-operative antibiotics and maybe the chlorhexadene dental chews, but it persisted. Tried other foods again (same as above, pretty much), to no effect. Re-dosed with Panacur, to no effect. Tried dexamethazone for two weeks for possible TBD, no effect. Used beet pulp and probiotics for 2-3 weeks, but it didn't help. He refused to eat either pumpkin or sweet potato. After he had lost 6 lbs., I switched his kibble to Kirkland Chicken & Rice (despite the rice) about 3 weeks ago, and I switched the canned food from Newman's Own to Wellness. His appetite has normalized. Don't know if it was the food or the two rounds of antibiotics that is responsible. In all of these foods I've tried to avoid corn and soy at all costs, and until just recently we avoided white rice. The rice may still not agree with him, but at least he's eating the food. Given what we've already been avoiding, going to pure meat is about all that I can see that's left. I don't know how to approach this competently. The vet thinks we should hold the food constant now and see how he responds, first of all, to the cobalamin injection by Wednesday. So if I'm going to address food instead of using medicine, I'll have to justify it to her (and to my ignorant self). And I'll probably need help with that, though she is respectful and easy to talk to. Is feeding raw appropriate in a case like this? Thanks for your help. Get back to me when you can. I can help you with editing, but only as to grammar! Sorry about Beau, Robin, and I've been reading your threads. Didn't know you were going the biopsy route. Good luck, and I'll stay tuned for your posts. Thanks for the info about using pred. I totally didn't know about that!

Spencer's test results finally came back yesterday. Fecal was negative for parasites, though he has a long history of systematized hookworm. It took so long to diagnose them in the first place (2-1/2 years ago) that his intestines surely suffered. But now the blood work indicates "a malabsorptive condition throughout the small intestine," because both the folate and cobalamin levels are low and out of range. The TLI test was normal, so there's "no evidence of EPI at this time." I'm quoting from the letter my vet wrote me to go along with the test report and article ("Cobalamin and Gastrointestinal Disease" from ACVIM 2002). He'll have to get subcutaneous shots of cobalamin for the rest of his life. What is unknown is what caused this condition. (Btw, TBD testing was negative, though only for Prototek's 4 main kinds, and a 10-day use of Tylan improved his appetite but not his poops.) Her letter says the best diagnostic strategy is exploratory surgery with full tissue biopsies but that most owners find this a bit drastic. Yup, that would be me! She says that some kind of biopsy of the small intestine is indicated, at least endoscopy with multiple biopsies of stomach tissue and small intestine. She wants me to read through the material she gave me, think about it, and call her tomorrow. She did mention, in person yesterday, that whether this turns out to be IBD or something else, the treatments are pretty much the same: metronidazole (I think she said) and a steroid. So we could just treat that way and see what happens. She adds that you can tweak the treatment nicely based on information provided by biopsies, though. So what do you think: Is it worth it to go the endoscopy route, given the risk inherent in sedation/anesthesia? Spencer was 8 in December, and this 6 months of diarrhea/pudding poops have aged him, as do the hookworms. So he's an "old" 8. My instinct is to avoid invasive strategies whenever possible, but I don't know... All advice, opinions, and experiences shared will be GREATLY appreciated. I've been going crazy with this for months, and Spencer and I could really use some help here. ETA: Update in Post 32

So very sorry for your loss. He left at home in his sleep after a long and dignified life, to be discovered in a sunbeam. If he had to go, it doesn't go better than that. My deepest sympathies.

Yup, swooning here!! (Somebody needs to design a swooning emo, doncha think?!) He is SO gorgeous, and Harmony's collar looks just right on him. He's acting like he has lived there all his life too! Just mooooved right in! (Are cowdogs just naturally good at that?) We're so very happy for you and Louie, and Ken and the pack!