Dog I Not Well, But Out Of Clues What Is Wrong

[Guest Alexandra_W]

Had another usernamne here before, but one that either has vanished or I just simply have forgotten. Is Swedish so english isnt my first language, so please excuse me for bad spelling and grammar.

 

Anyway, my 4-y-o male isnt well. But we just can't figure out what is wrong with him. Neutered as 3½ years old (aug 2008).

 

He is a blood donor, and in sept he was thouroughly checked over and all bloodworks, including tick bourne diseases, everything was just fine.

 

Donated blood again in november, just routine bloodwork, everything perfectly normal.

 

Trouble started in dec 2008 when he became strange. His behaviour change and he felt like he was wind up and over reactive. Barked at things that seemed to only be in his head (ie, you couldn't see anything that would make him bark). Started growling at the cats, seemed to be unsure in the dark and so on. Very energetic and 'happy going' otherwise.

 

I just put it down to his dogfriend he lives with was ill and not wanted to play and so.

Then he started to gaining weight, and became overweight. His food was cut down but no succes. He orginally had ad-lib high energy food and was just perfect on that. Now he just gained and gained. Switched to a maintenance feed, no sucess. Switched to a light feed, and cut the feed down to just 4 decilitres a day. He didn't gain more, bit wouldn't loose either.

 

Routine bloodwork was done in dec, but everything was just fine.

 

At around christmas he started barking at my mom who lives in the same house, when she walked by my room, it was like he didn't recognized her. When he realized it was her, it was all tails wagging and happy greetings. At several occasions acted unsure and afraid around kids and growl at them. Not aggresivley, just a 'leavde me alone'-growl.

 

Still energetic and happy and active. Just a bit more grumpy than usual, and sometimes seemed to see ghosts and barked at them.

 

In january he fractured a claw, and had to be put on antibiotic and leashwalks. Is still overweight even though litterally no feed and A LOT of exercise.

 

Starts to be getting low and slow. Don't wanna play, don't wanna run, mostly wanna sleep. The infection in the claw is persistent, and the antibiotics is changes. He gets a lot mor energetic after that. But the changes in his temperament is the same. He also starts loosing har along his belly (the sides). Thyroid tests are taken and cames back perfectly. They just couldn't be better.

 

The behaviour worsens, he is over reactive and spooks and growls, growls at people and so on. He looses his dog friend at this period to. Gets a new dog friend that he loves, the sleep togheter, play togheter and really likes each other.

 

At this time he also suddenly starts showing signs om motion sickness in the car. He is panting excessivley, and don't relax. When car is still, he is fine. He happily jumps in to the car and so on.

 

Is put on Hills prescription diet r/d for the weight.

 

In february the temperament gets better and worse at the same time. It is good days and bad days. Good days he is almost his old self, bad days he is worse then ever. Growls at the vet for no apparent reason when vet greets him. No signs whatsoever of any pain or discomfort anywere. Moves fines, can be touched, felt, pushed, flexed etc without a sign of discomfort.

 

New tests for tick borna disease is taken - all negative. Routine bloodwork is fine. Urine samples is fine.

 

But SOMETHING isn't right. Neither me, my mom or anyone that knows the dog 'recognize' him, he is change. The good days it is just a feeling he is a bit low, a bad day there is no doubt something is really not right. Then he is low, inactive, and really grumpy.

 

No fever or anything, have checked him twice daily for three weeks in a row.

 

Has lost some weight due to the r/d, but still isn't hos old self. And it comes ang goes.

 

Today when he had visit the clinic, I put him in the car, and took my other dog out for a quick pee. Retirned, put other dog in car and then I entered the car. My older dog reacted like someone unknown had entered the car, and barked and was pretty aggressive. I talked to him nut no reaction. Put my hand into him, and he thre himself against it to bite but then seemed to realize by small that it was me, and instantly calmed down. I did get the feeling he didn't recognized me.

 

He has never ever once showed any signs of aggresion or growled or anything against me. Been as good as always towards me.

 

ANYONE with any ideas? Both me and the vet is just out of ideas and out of clues, and it is like finding a needle in a haystack just to know were to start the search.

 

We have one more thing to try to try to get some clue. We will put him on meloxicam for a week, and see if his grumpiness is affected. If so, then it is a sign that there is some form of pain or discomfort even though we cant find any signs on the 'outside' for it. If no change, it is back to square one =/

 

[Guest SusanP]

I'm hoping someone here has an answer, but it sure sounds like thyroid levels should be checked again and in greater detail. Sending positive thoughts.

[Guest taylorsmom]

Yes, I would definitely think THYROID too!! Has the thyroid testing been done by either Michigan State or by Jean Dodds (Hemopet)?

[turbotaina]

My guess would be hypothyroidism. Have a complete thyroid panel run, including a TSH. It's best to get it done by dialysis, but I don't know if they have that method in Sweden. Here, we use Michigan State University. Perhaps a veterinary college in Sweden may offer a similar service.

 

Good luck!

 

Another possibility would be Cushings.

 

ETA: I see you've tested thyroid. Again, I'd have the full panel run, including TSH. Something's not right there. Have you consulted with a different vet? A specialist? Also, check eyesight - could be losing vision which is making him reactive.

Edited February 17, 2009 by turbotaina

[DaisyDoodle]

I too would check the thyroid. I would also check his vision.

 

 

[Guest Alexandra_W]

I'm hoping someone here has an answer, but it sure sounds like thyroid levels should be checked again and in greater detail. Sending positive thoughts.

 

The thyroid test was taken January 20th, so they are pretty fresh. What do you mean with 'greater detail'? Dont know is it is the same words in english, but they checked TSH, total T4 (TT4), free T4, total T3 (TT3) and an antibodies test.

Antibodies test was neg, TSH, T4 and T3 was as perfect as they can get, spot on in the middle of the refernce values. Ie if ref values was 5 - 10, he was on 7.5 (figures made up, not actual ones)

 

But can you check even more detailed?

[turbotaina]

I'm hoping someone here has an answer, but it sure sounds like thyroid levels should be checked again and in greater detail. Sending positive thoughts.

 

The thyroid test was taken January 20th, so they are pretty fresh. What do you mean with 'greater detail'? Dont know is it is the same words in english, but they checked TSH, total T4 (TT4), free T4, total T3 (TT3) and an antibodies test.

Antibodies test was neg, TSH, T4 and T3 was as perfect as they can get, spot on in the middle of the refernce values. Ie if ref values was 5 - 10, he was on 7.5 (figures made up, not actual ones)

 

But can you check even more detailed?

 

That's the same in English, so sounds like they checked everything. See if you can find out if it was done by dialysis.

 

What do his blood values look like? Have you run an endocrine panel to check other hormone levels?

[Guest Alexandra_W]

The test by the way was analysed on the top laboratory in Sweden (I happen to live pretty close to it), so the analyse itself is without doubt correct.

 

I was drop dead sure it would come back 'positive' for hypothyroideism. But no. (I was actually disappointed when I got the results. I should have felt relief, but if it had been positive, then we would have KNOWN whats wrong, and treat him. Same for the tick borne diseases, we only have two in Sweden. I was hoping they would be positive, so we would knew and be able to try to treat him and help him but no)

 

I do not have the blood values in my head, need to talk to my vet. But they were all fine. In december, in january and today.

 

I am not sure about the endocrine panel, dont really know what it 'gets' translanted to Swedish? What does it include?

[Guest Alexandra_W]

Reply to several persons at a time

 

Cushings - is ruled out due to lack of symptoms. I'm not that happy about it, but I stretch the vets patience enough I guess by over and over again request they run new test, and they time after time can't find anything wrong.

 

He has not been seen by a specialist, more thean a general specialist in dogs and cats diseased. But you have 'inside medicin' specialists, and sceletal specialist etc, but tha problem is 'wich one to choose'. He will be referred to the animal hospital after the meloxicam trial, if he isn't suddenly his old self by then (doubt it..). When I have spoked to them over the phone about the issue, they have been pretty much 'well, maybe you are imagine it?' or 'he perhaps is just tired of getting a young puppy as new friend?'. But problemes started long before that, and I am NOT imaginating. I see it, my mom see it and my vet have seen it on some occasions (when we have had visits on 'bad days').

 

So I am not sure how much effort they will put into it, but I hope i get a 'good vet' who wan't to solve it as much as my regular vet. His suggestion is to do a full bloodwork, he explained it like 'you maybe needs to have 50 or so results in front of you, and try to find clues. If he is within normal range of X but a bit of the low side, and in the normal rang but a bit on the high side of Y, then you might get the clue thar perhaps it could be disease Z, and do further tests for that'. My vet can't run all that tests, and therefore want it done at the large clinic. He also feels like a new pair of eyes of the problem would be helpful.

 

Unfortnatley I do not know if we use dialysis in Sweden. If we do, then the tests are done with that. The laboratory only uses the newest 'ways' used in Sweden. Are the 'top notch' laboratory, and has the ability to analyses that no other lab can, and are getting samples (of various kind, not talking just thyroid samples now) sent from all of Sweden.

 

I SO much wan't it to be hypothyroideism, but it doesnt look that way (and to be honest the symptoms is a bit 'off' to, it all fits the bill IF he would be low and tired ALL the time´, but not really the all active and playing and running and all one day, and down the next).

 

I have tried almost desperatly to see a pattern. Like if he works hard one day or plays a lot, then he is low the next. Or if he do not work one day he is low the next. Checked every pattern I can think of, even like 'if he gets a rawhide one day, is he down the next or the next-next' or 'is he down when I have worked a lot, been home a lot?, 'when its colder?' and so on. But still haven't found any pattern, it seems all randomly.

[Guest Alexandra_W]

Forgot, about the vision. No 'special' test has been done on the vision, just some simpe tests regarding vision and hearing. At the level of making sound behind the dog, and look if he turns his head to look at it, and to move hand against eyes and see if the eyelid closing mechanism is responding, and also moving things in the 'outer' of his vision fiels and see if he reacts and if he overreacts. Nothing, everything seemed perfectly fine. If vision and hearing should be checked at closer detail, it has to be done at the bog clinic. By the way, big clinic i speak about, and also the laboratory - it is the veterinary college in Sweden, located in Uppsala.

 

Both hearing and vision have been in my mind, but then it must be something that goes abit up and down, ie is better some days and worse other?

 

If I had to choose, we would put the entire dog in the magnetic x-ray machine, take all bloodsamples ever known to mankind, make all the examinations that is know of to both eyes, ears, heart and so on. Unfortnatley the vets do not agree (And I guss the insurance company soon will start to stop the payments if we can't find even the slightest little thing)

[Batmom]

If I had to choose, we would put the entire dog in the magnetic x-ray machine,

 

What about just a regular x-ray of his body so you can see heart, spleen, etc.?

 

For gaining weight, does he look like he has gained weight all over his body, very evenly? For example, bigger neck, pad of fat over the top of his hips, etc.? Or does his torso (through the ribs, chest, and stomach) look larger around, while other things look about the same?

 

It seems that your vet was very thorough with the thyroid testing. I suppose it is possible that the thyroid is operating well some days and not others, but the kind of testing your vet did would almost certainly have shown that. If there is nothing else to try, you could ask about taking him to get his thyroid retested on a day when he is acting "off."

 

The only other things I know of that make a dog gain weight like that are heart problems and enlarged spleen. But, I am not a vet, and I am hoping yours will have better ideas of where to look.

[Guest Alexandra_W]

They dont take ordinary X-rays so either, unfortnatley. They only do it if they have some suspicions, for example just heart problems.

 

But X-ray dog all over would be fine for me. The meloxicam trial is a step to narrow down the search. Vet cant find any signs on the 'outside' that the dog is in pain. Vet can palpate, stretch and flex without any reactions. He is good and evenly muscled (even though I always, long before this started, have felt that he should have a bit more muscle on his back legs. Not that he is poorly muscled, its al normal, but due to the work he does, I would have expected more muscle. His hips and elbows are routinley X-rayed at age of three, and was perfectly fine (I wonder HOW many times I have heard perfectly fine regarding that dog, and how many times I have written it in this thread). But IF the meloxicam makes him better, then it is a stron indication that the underlying problem is associated with pain. And THEN maybe I could get the entire dog X-rayed.

 

But if meloxicam makes no difference, then as said - square one.

 

His heart isn't checked in 'detail'. Both heart and lungs sounds fine, in rest and after some activity. And because of that they will not do ultrasound on the heart or X-rays.

 

He gained weight 'all over', became fat. His waist disappeared, fat on the neck, ribs fat covered and so on. 'Normal' dog getting fat gain, or how you should say.

 

The thyroids were taking in a bad period, when he was low all the time. Before the change of antibiotics for the claw. The antibiotics made him a lot more 'up' and happy, but didn't changed the grumpiness. And as said, still are bad days and good days. Maybe re-test him on a bad day yes, feels like a long shot, but heck - long shots are what we have been doing for months now..

 

 

[lothianjavert]

I would've thought thyroid at first too, with the symptoms, but it does sound like the testing was thorough.

 

The only other thing that makes sense with some of the symptoms would be Cushing's, which has already been mentioned.

 

Common symptoms include:

 

weight gain (around midsection), irritability, anxiety, unstable emotions, depression, lethargy, slow healing of wounds, infections, broken bones (due to loss of bone- osteoporosis), thin fragile skin, stretch marks (striae), muscle weakness, hair loss (animals).....

[Brindles]

...seemed to be unsure in the dark and so on.

He might be losing his vision. I have a blind dog and his blindness started to first show up at night. There are a couple GTers with greyhounds who went blind from Progressive Retinal Atrophy.

 

Edit: Dogs with PRA can seem fine some days and worse others. Julio started to get disoriented at night and would do very subtle odd things during the day. It affects all dogs differently but it is a gradual process and painless. Many dogs adjust to PRA just fine. Julio is also hypothyroid.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Brindles

[Guest Alexandra_W]

...seemed to be unsure in the dark and so on.

He might be losing his vision. I have a blind dog and his blindness started to first show up at night. There are a couple GTers with greyhounds who went blind from Progressive Retinal Atrophy.

 

Edit: Dogs with PRA can seem fine some days and worse others. Julio started to get disoriented at night and would do very subtle odd things during the day. It affects all dogs differently but it is a gradual process and painless. Many dogs adjust to PRA just fine. Julio is also hypothyroid.

 

How do you test for PRA?

 

The 'unsure of the dark' was (some time since I saw it now) when he first came out when it was dark. We have lightning above the door, and he would stay and stand in the light, and seem that he didn't want to get out. If you encourage him to get out, he followed, and then it seemed to disappear. Like if he either was unsure about what was in the dark, or had problem adjusting his eyes from light to dark. Never acted strange when getting from dark to light, and not when being in the stable with med, and going in and out (light/dark/light).

 

Now it is some time since I saw that behaviour, now he usually jumps right out, and happily plays with his firend, runs around ad so in the dark.

 

Never, eithe now or before, have had any problem avoiding objects in the dark.

 

But that 'thing' with darkness, and that he started barking when mum walked by, and barking att 'ghosts' felt like 'maybe his vision is bad'. Vet did the simple test I mentioned, and lighted with a pocketlight in the eyes and couldnt see anything out of normal (of course that does NOT says that nothing is wrong with the eyes).

 

He has also (forgot to write that in first post I think?) in periods been barking at sounds that he should be used to. Not like if I drop a plate, but If neighbour cloesed his car door for example. SOunds clearly 'hearable', but familiar and he usually don't react to. Now he does not, but one period - actually same as the 'darkness thing' he would.

 

So, how do you test for PRA? Feels like worth examinating, even if the result is that we have excluded it, it is one little step closer to the solution.

[ahicks51]

How do you test for PRA?

 

The eye color is characteristic. It will appear in both eyes. Changes to one eye (or both eyes, but the pattern will usually be different) may be pannus. Or cataracts.

 

[Guest Alexandra_W]

He don't fit the symptom bill of cushings as sid, so not been tested (I would have had it excluded anyway, but..). He has some (that was why I would have it excluded), but 'misses' most.

 

In a perfect world it would be 'I pay, I decide what tests to run', but unfortnatley not =/

 

So if eye color is normal and eye looks normal, it is not PRA?

[Brindles]

Eye color is not a factor in PRA. You will see limited pupillary response to light, but not necessarily in the early stages. When the pupil remains dilated, you can see the tapetum membrane in the back of the eye which has a sheen to it. The photo above looks more like cataracts and less like PRA to me, just based on what I've seen with my own dog. I'll try and find a photo of Julio to show you. He has developed cataracts now so unfortunately now I'm unable to just go snap a picture of it for you.

 

The only way to get it diagnosed is to see a veterinary ophthalmologist who can look in the back of the dog's eyes and see the retinal arteries. If they are in fact degrading, then you have PRA. If he's in the early stages, it may take two trips to determine if they are degrading.

[Brindles]

Here's what Julio's eyes used to look like

 

 

 

And here's what they looked like three years later

(notice the absurdly large pupils)

 

Basically his retinal arteries have atrophied to the point that he can't sense light well anymore, so his pupils try to compensate by staying dilated.

[MaryJane]

There are five things that I think of:

 

1. vision which has already been mentioned

2. septicemia - blood infection - they should culture the blood. A blood infection could cause a multitude of symptoms and possibly the swelling. Infection could have happened when he donated blood in November. He also fractured his paw and has an infection there that is not healing - could be there are two bacterial infections and the antibiotics that he is on for the claw is making another infection (like a blood infection) worse.

3. check the eosinophil count in the CBC diff and see if it is elevated. If it is, could be an indication of an allergic reaction and could be the reason for the swelling

4. was a urinalysis done? A untreated urinalysis infection in people can cause confusion although I don't think this could cause the swelling ..

5. Can you check to see what type of cases were presented in the hospital when he gave blood. It could be that he caught something from another dog coming in for treatment. This will probably be very difficult to get, if not impossible but, your doctor might be able to get it.

 

 

OOPs, thought of one other thing ... do they reuse the needles on the dogs when they give blood - if so, you may want to try and track down other dogs that gave blood. Re-using needles is not as uncommon as most people think - there was a case of a clinic in the US just recently that had an incident similar in that their sterilizing equipment was not working correctly (or something like that).

Edited February 18, 2009 by MaryJane

[Brindles]

Here's the sheen that I'm talking about.

(This was taken four years ago after removal of a thyroid tumor.)

 

[Guest Taras]

I too would check the thyroid. I would also check his vision.

 

 

 

I agree gets these both looked at again.

[greyhead]

I've been told by a vet that she had a greyhound who was grumpy to the point of aggressiveness, and it was caused by an inflammation in the brain. If you're thinking specialist, you might consider consulting a veterinary neurologist. Or ask your vet to get a consult from one.

 

I also mention this because a disorder of the eye doesn't explain the weight gain.

 

Thyroid was my first thought too. Retesting is not a bad idea, maybe even just T4 repeated every two weeks or so for a little while. A thyroid that is losing functionality actually swings from hypothyroid to normal and back again, like an engine revving. If you happen to test while it's revving, it appears to be functioning normally. But if it's doing this, it is in fact a sick thyroid.

 

Wishing you the best! Please keep us posted as you investigate. We care and we have inquiring minds.

 

 

[Lilysmom]

Sorry if I'm repeating here, I haven't read through all the responses. My first thought was trouble with his vision, wonder if he's loosing some of his sight? It's a big adjustment, several Gters have experience with hounds who have lost their vision, I'm sure they will chime in here with some advice.

 

Good Luck! I hope you figure out what's going on.

[Guest Alexandra_W]

septicemia - blood infection - they should culture the blood. A blood infection could cause a multitude of symptoms and possibly the swelling. Infection could have happened when he donated blood in November. He also fractured his paw and has an infection there that is not healing - could be there are two bacterial infections and the antibiotics that he is on for the claw is making another infection (like a blood infection) worse.

 

He fractured a claw, not the paw (thankfully). And that is completley healed. But we had to switch the antibiotics. He was initally put on clindamycin and that cleared up the mucus and so, but still was red and swollen and slightly painful. So he did then get amoxicillin. That cleared up the infection completley, and it has been fine since, and new claw has grown out.

 

They have tested more deeply for blood infection both in december (before the claw), and in january (after claw). No signs. CBC diff is routine bloodwork and has been checked every time he have had his blood tested. Kidney, liver etc is also checked (by blood and urine samples combined) several times.

 

Urin analysis is done yes, only thing that we hasn't done is taken a sterile sample straight fron the bladder. But collected urine is checked and good, testet both morning urine and 'later in the day' urine. Nothing there that shouldn't be, and well concentrated. No symptoms from the urinary tract. Pees normal, hold himself for normal amount of times, no discomfort releasing himself, normal amounts and normal 'number' om pees.

 

At the beginning both me and the vet felt that this is 'from the inside', but can't find anythong even slightly odd/off there. And I more and more started to think it has to be something else, more like Vision and so. Did som reding about PRA, and as I understood it should have been revealed when the vet looked in the eyes and put light to the eyes. BUT, it might be an early stage, so definatley worth rechecking.

 

Blood donors have seperate waiting areas, so do not think he catched something there, he is always alone or with my dads dog (also a blood donor) when we wait? Needles are sterile and disposed after each use. I see when they hook up the stuff, and needle, bad and so on comes out of sealed, sterile 'one time' bags, and are disposed in front of my eyes after use. (Scary that they re-used needles..)