Allergies And Food Trials

[Guest annickaandjef]

Hey all,

 

To be fair, I've posted about Penny's skin infection before. I've done a fair bit of searching through the threads for food trials and have found some very useful advice, but I figured it was worth a shot to create a new post. Any advice, stories, thoughts on starting down the road of testing out food for allergies would be so much appreciated. My apologies for posting another thread about this subject, though!

 

Today we visited the vet for a follow-up, as she's now completed a 6-week run of Cephalexin. Her legs look much better and she's stopped itching when we're around, but she will still gnaw and nibble at her bad leg if she manages to get out of her cone during the day while we're gone. This has only happened once, two days ago, when we experimented with leaving her out of her crate for the first time and she ate the hell out of a wall! This might also be an SA issue, but we haven't had many other issues with SA thus far, and our vet has said that if it were pure SA (i.e., without an accompanying allergy) her legs would have cleared up much sooner.

 

His recommendation was to start food trials with her. Her skin biopsy came back with an indication of an allergy, so he thinks this is the natural next step. He did not recommend going down the allergy testing/shot path just yet.

 

We're going to try a novel protein diet for her for 12 weeks, per his recommendation. We've already determined (yay!) that she gets MUCH worse if we give her fowl. How did we figure that out? When we first brought her home, her foster mom noted that she'll do anything for chicken - so Penny ate a whole lot of chicken-related items for her first few weeks, and her already-existing skin infection went NUTS.

 

I'm looking into venison & sweet potato right now. She's been on Canidae Salmon and Bison, alternately. Won't eat the lamb.

 

Thank you all for listening! Our dream is to be able to get through a full day without having to cone her. We have to cone her when we're gone. We just can't imagine having to make her wear a cone for more than two months - we feel so bad for her having to tolerate it.

Edited February 13, 2014 by annickaandjef

[MaryJane]

It's important that you do a limited ingredient diet as it could also be something other than the protein causing a problem. When I used to foster greyhounds, I would get quite a few with GI issues and/or suspected allergies and I would do an elimination diet which would take (at it's simplest) about 4 weeks. I would start with hamburger and rice and keep them on that for at least a week and see if they got worse or better or OK. If better/OK, I would add in a vegetable and go another week and see what transpired. If your dog does not do well on rice, you can try noodles or potatoes. If the hamburger does not work, you can try fish or pork - I always stayed away from chicken because of the issues with antibiotics.

 

This method does require home cooking. As an alternate, Natural Balance used to offer Limited Ingredient dog food but, I'm not sure if they still do as they were recently taken over by another company.

[Guest Lillypad]

Sorry to hear your pup is suffering allergies, it must be miserable for her. My girl doesn't have allergies, but I am always mindful and on watch. Have you considered a RAW DIET. There is a number of great threads here on Greytalk on the subject. I have heard it said that a dog allergic to a protein in kibble may not necessarily have a reaction to the same protein in a Raw based diet. Wishing you and your a pup speedy resolution.

[Guest Lillypad]

Hi, back again, I just searched Canidae dog food to see its composition. Just a FYI here, and nothing more, but research has concluded that when starchy carbohydrates convert to sugar they can cause allergic reactions in dogs. While processed kibble producers are making efforts to produce a "better" product by promoting "grain free" foods, the fact is they still must have a component to bind the ingredients together. While it is true Canidae lists no grains in the ingredients, potatoes, chichpeas and alfafa are still starches that convert to sugars. There are so many sites devoted to the benefits of raw feeding, I urge you to check out a few and consider your options. The Canidae food that you mention, appears to be a premium line of food, so I assume it is not cheap. You may be surprised to learn that raw feeding is on par with what you are paying for kibble. At least this was my pleasant surprise. I empathize with your concerns about her in a cone, my girl had to wear one when she had sutures, she was miserable. Wearing a cone and itchy in addition to that, boy girl. Once again I wish you a speedy resolution.

[Guest FreeholdHound]

Poor thing. Harry doesn't have skin issues but did have GI & ear problems. After a year of loose stool, & food refusal, and donating many many bags of 1/2 used dog food I bit the bullet & ran a Hemopet allergy test on him. I know it's not 100% accurate but it did confirm what I was seeing- no turkey, chicken, venison , salmon, white fish, sweet potato, or oatmeal (plus a few other things). That list made finding a kibble REALLY difficult but I found 2-3 he handles well. I also add some raw grinds at dinner just to rotate in as much variety as I can.

 

Good luck- hope things improve soon

[Batmom]

A food trial wouldn't be commercial food with many ingredients. It would be either Z/D (prescription diet; hydrolyzed protein -- that is, broken down so the body doesn't recognize it as an allergen) or a single meat and nothing else.

 

 

 

Whether a food has starches in it or not doesn't matter except in the sense that you want to feed only one thing in a true food trial, not 3 or 4 or 12 things. Most food ingredients other than highly purified oils contain protein. It's almost always the protein that is the allergen.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Batmom

[Guest annickaandjef]

Hi, back again, I just searched Canidae dog food to see its composition. Just a FYI here, and nothing more, but research has concluded that when starchy carbohydrates convert to sugar they can cause allergic reactions in dogs. While processed kibble producers are making efforts to produce a "better" product by promoting "grain free" foods, the fact is they still must have a component to bind the ingredients together. While it is true Canidae lists no grains in the ingredients, potatoes, chichpeas and alfafa are still starches that convert to sugars. There are so many sites devoted to the benefits of raw feeding, I urge you to check out a few and consider your options. The Canidae food that you mention, appears to be a premium line of food, so I assume it is not cheap. You may be surprised to learn that raw feeding is on par with what you are paying for kibble. At least this was my pleasant surprise. I empathize with your concerns about her in a cone, my girl had to wear one when she had sutures, she was miserable. Wearing a cone and itchy in addition to that, boy girl. Once again I wish you a speedy resolution.

 

Hey Lillypad,

 

Thank you so much for checking out Canidae and sharing your advice. This is REALLY helpful. I knew that grains were bad, but had read that sweet potatoes were an okay substitute - interesting that they still serve the same starch gods.

 

I've been reading up on raw food at everyones' suggestion...it seems like a really good option, but I'm a lapsed vegetarian and still get a little squeamish about handling raw meat! so i'm going to keep searching for at least one limited ingredient food (with no starch or grain) that we can try out first, before raw.

A food trial wouldn't be commercial food with many ingredients. It would be either Z/D (prescription diet; hydrolyzed protein -- that is, broken down so the body doesn't recognize it as an allergen) or a single meat and nothing else.

 

 

 

Whether a food has starches in it or not doesn't matter except in the sense that you want to feed only one thing in a true food trial, not 3 or 4 or 12 things. Most food ingredients other than highly purified oils contain protein. It's almost always the protein that is the allergen.

 

Thanks for clarifying, Batmom...she was reacting to cooked, plain chicken, so it makes sense that the protein was the source, not another ingredient like soy or coloring or whatever.

 

Our vet recommended a single or limited ingredient food that we can purchase...of course he didn't have a suggested list so i'm doing my diligence. i hadn't heard of z/d, so searching now...thank ya!

Poor thing. Harry doesn't have skin issues but did have GI & ear problems. After a year of loose stool, & food refusal, and donating many many bags of 1/2 used dog food I bit the bullet & ran a Hemopet allergy test on him. I know it's not 100% accurate but it did confirm what I was seeing- no turkey, chicken, venison , salmon, white fish, sweet potato, or oatmeal (plus a few other things). That list made finding a kibble REALLY difficult but I found 2-3 he handles well. I also add some raw grinds at dinner just to rotate in as much variety as I can.

 

Good luck- hope things improve soon

 

Nice! Glad to hear that Harry's feeling better...sounds like a lot of detective work on your part

 

Just out of curiosity, which kibbles are you feeding him?

[Batmom]

Z/D is prescription and might be overkill for your situation. Your vet might be thinking one novel protein plus one carbohydrate. That isn't a bad place to start if the dog isn't in danger.

 

There are some other prescription foods such as Royal Canin Duck and Potato, Venison and Potato ..... Natural Balance has a line of Limited Ingredient foods that are not prescription, and so do some other vendors (Wellness is one; I think Nature's Variety might have a couple now too).

[Guest FreeholdHound]

Harry's done well on Natures Logic Beef or Sardine Formulas, and Earthborn Holistic Great Plains Feast. I'm trying out 4Health Beef & Potato right now & so far so good. I can throw in TOTW Southwest Canyon also (but I try to avoid Diamond products). I also use Hare Today's Raw grinds in the PM when I remember to defrost them- doh! Those include beef, goat, rabbit, w/tripe.

[XTRAWLD]

It took years for us to get Kasey's allergies under control. While the whole situation has been beat to death with testing, trials, meds, etc., we switched to raw. He's never been better. (You have probably heard this angle before and it should be wholeheartedly considered).

 

On raw, we are able to isolate and eliminate the ingredients he has a reaction to while still getting him the proper nutrition without the added "fluff" inside of commercial kibble. For example, he's allergic to chicken, therefore ANY chicken is a no no IMO - that ingredient should be completely isolated to determine if his allergies are reduced by not having any intake of that ingredient. This includes anything called "by-product" and even fats and oils, etc. Depending on who you talk to, many believe that because it's fat, etc. it's processed in the body differently. Well, IMO I don't want to take that chance and have to go back to square one every time he ingests something related to chicken and whatever other variable is attached to that, so I just completely avoid it altogether. Do this all over again for the next ingredient on his allergy list. He's got lots of no no's, so it is extremely frustrating. When we admitted this still won't get better because he's allergic to oats, and grains, and all that kind of stuff it's a hopeless battle with kibble. So raw really did resolve our problems. We know what protein is in there, and we aren't putting anything in the raw that shows up on his radar.

 

If you are still privy to the kibble route, I would suggest going to Z/D - absolute bare minimum ingredients and start working your way up. Stay as LIMITED as you can....any LTD to start is very important. Or if you have isolated which things she's allergic to, read read read read ingredient listings on bags you think you'd want to try and start there. We scoured bags from every manufacturer, and it does get expensive the more exotic routes you need to try - kangaroo....venison...buffalo... Basically substituting proteins that he has NEVER been exposed to.....and then what if you find the right one and she has no interest in eating it? Oy vey!

 

Handling his environmental allergies as well is challenging but I can really only control his food intake. Sorry pup, but there is grass everywhere and that's where meds come in to help.

 

You've done skin testing. Have you done blood testing or even testing by saliva?

 

I wish you all the best of luck, feel free to PM me if I can be of more guidance for you. It really is a long road to get to something that works. Be patient.

Edited February 14, 2014 by XTRAWLD

[Guest grey_dreams]

Zhivaya has a lot of food allergies too and very strong reactions (scratching and licking to the point of wounding himself, blowing his coat, and personality changes). It can take more than a month for him to fully recover. I slowly discovered his sensitivities and how to recognize the earliest symptoms of an allergic response (never had to deal with allergies in a companion animal before). It's been an ongoing struggle, and now I am more than cautious before he gets anything different. I always feed a commercially prepared raw grind (Primal, but not the chicken or sardine grind), supplemented with raw goat's milk (Answers), and I've been a vegan/vegetarian for 40 years (it was hard at first, I say a prayer for the animals who are helping us). He also gets low-fat home-baked cookies from Treats Unleashed. He does extremely well with this raw diet and his allergies fully resolved. He stopped licking and chewing, and his coat is now plush and glossy with the bald spots grown in. A few months ago I had to start feeding kibble for the morning meal, and he's been doing fine with the Acana lamb and apple, which is a single-source protein/single-source carbohydrate food. Good luck with your girl.

[Guest OPointyDog]

Our vet recommended a single or limited ingredient food that we can purchase...of course he didn't have a suggested list so i'm doing my diligence. i hadn't heard of z/d, so searching now...thank ya!

 

An alternative to z/d is the Purina brand called "HA" - hypoallergenic. It's also prescription, but many vets may have some as a sample. Our vet uses it sometimes for dogs with serious allergies. It seems to work in many cases. The food is plant (soy) based, but all the protein is hydrolyzed so it doesn't matter what the source is. It's broken down into the constituent amino acids. Since most food allergies are reactions to proteins, it means that the body doesn't have allergic reactions anymore.

 

As Batmom says, you may want to keep that in your back pocket as a last resort if the single carb/single protein doesn't work out for you.

 

We tried it for awhile with our greyhound with the terrible ongoing diarrhea. Didn't help in his case - what he needed was more fiber, so he's on Purina DCO, which has been a miracle worker for us..

[Burpdog]

I strongly suggest you do allergy tests instead of trial & error and inferior foods.

 

This place is affordable and they gear the tests to your area of the country:

 

http://www.varlallergy.com/

[Guest Lillypad]

Happy my limited knowledge has you considering feeding RAW. There are much more knowledgeable people than me here and a tremendous amount of wonderful information regarding RAW. I admit that I am new to RAW feeding and I am still in learning mode, but will say that it "Just feels right" to feed an animal biologically correct meals. I reflect back on the days when it was said, "Feed your infant this food we have formulated, it has everything an infant will need, much better than what human milk can provide. This didn't feel right to me... so against all objections professionally and personally, I chose to breast feed my infants (it was FAR from popular 30 years ago) As I said, I am learning, I am filtering through all Greytalk threads (embarrassed say way into the wee hours of the night, but I love it) and gaining more knowledge and confidence everyday. I am happy with my decision, THUS FAR. I seek out individuals that have been feeding RAW for some time and/or individuals that have proven results with issues such as GI and skin issues. Unfortunately, clinical tests are few and far between on Raw feeding so I look for long term results. Just spoke to a gentlemen in our obedience class last night, his pup went from mom's milk to a raw diet; that was 3 years ago, the dog is still going strong and looks the picture of health. I have no experience with allergic reactions, and that is exactly what I endeavor to avoid by feeding raw. Therefore, please consider the advice of those more knowledgeable. I don't have proof that RAW feeding will cure her issues, who really knows at this stage, but I feel confident RAW feeding has long term health benefits. So often I hear of young dogs just starting the battle with yeasty skin and ear infections and think how they might avoid a long and arduous battle if they would only give RAW a try. I am curious about so called one protein commercial foods, what does that mean, I hope members will enlighten me, I really am open minded and love to learn all that I can about nutrition. Is there a commerical food available that truly is a SINGLE ingredienct, wouldn't that product HAVE to have some type of addivites, preservataives, supplements just in the sheer production process. Therefore, in my mind why not cut to the chase and purchase a SINGLE unadulterated ingredienct... such as real beef, real chicken as your trial foods. And I admit I don't know what hydrolyzed means, will check it out though. I will also admit that feeding raw requires "a little more prep" but to my surprise very little more and very manageable, I personally hate spending time in the kitchen. You mentioned "handling" raw, yes I get your point, but in time you will surprise yourself. Knowing me, my family are amazed at how I deal with "icky" raw meat. Now I cut though beef hearts like I am cutting a slice of apple pie LOL. Got over it very quickly when I saw the joy my girl has eating her meals. Dogs are carnivores and as much as we may want to change that it just isn't going to happen. We are behooved to feed them as such. Another point people consider is cost. I suggest you compare the money you spend on vet bills, medication, prescription diets and specialty foods and judge this for yourself. I was paying $80.00 bag for Acana Ranchlands, which lasted approximately 30 days, I thought I could to as well or better feeding raw. Well, I had better end this spiel, perhaps it is obvious that I am passionate about RAW, ha,ha. Ultimately you must make the decision and be comfortable with it. But once again I URGE you to read all you can from various sources, weight the myths against the tried and proven and perhaps give it a trial. When Raw feeding is done correctly, I have yet to learn of a negative result. And trust me I have been researching the pros and cons for sometime. LOL I would actually love to hear from Greytalk members that had poor results with RAW feeding and why... perhaps a new thread " RAW FEEDING DISASTERS" Please feel free to contact me if you wish to be linked to sites that I have found helpful. But as I say there is much information right here at Greytalk. Once again best wishes, I am thinking of your girl, and hoping she gets relief from this hateful itchy skin condition very soon. This time now should be a happy, enjoyable, bonding time for you all. You are a trooper, best wishes.

[Guest Giselle]

Have you thought of contacting a nutritionist?

 

Do not trust everything you read on the Internet, especially about food. For example, I'm really quite perplexed by the statement that "the breakdown of complex carbohydrates to simple sugars causes allergic reactions". I would like to see the "conclusive research" that makes this claim because, from a biological standpoint, it makes no sense.

 

First, let's understand what the body is meant to do. Our body obtains calories - the energy to run your biological processes - through protein, carbohydrate, and fat. Carbohydrates are not in and of themselves "bad", and dogs do benefit from them as a source of energy. Thus, your body necessarily needs to break down the chemical bonds of complex carbohydrates to turn them into simple sugars for your body to use. Your body runs on simple sugars, and virtually all of digestion and metabolism is simply the break down of complex molecules (i.e. protein and long-chain carbohydrates) into simpler molecules that your body can ACTUALLY use (i.e. amino acids and glucose). This is why prescription diet Z/D is helpful for animals with allergies because the food has already broken down ("hydrolyzed") the proteins in the food. As Batmom has stated already, a large majority of animals are probably allergic to the protein and cannot tolerate breakdown of it. So, the solution is to break down the proteins into amino acids or other smaller components so that the dog's body has less to react to.

 

I wish you luck because, in some sense, you're all right. Dogs have lived for thousands of years on food scraps and have done exceptionally well, so they can pretty much live off garbage. However, you're all also right in that dogs with food intolerance and allergies can sometimes have no rhyme or reason to their afflictions, and so creating a perfect diet can be extremely frustrating if not impossible. I just wish you the best of luck and encourage you to frequently consult a professional nutritionist or your veterinarian.

[Guest Lillypad]

A food trial wouldn't be commercial food with many ingredients. It would be either Z/D (prescription diet; hydrolyzed protein -- that is, broken down so the body doesn't recognize it as an allergen) or a single meat and nothing else.

 

 

 

Whether a food has starches in it or not doesn't matter except in the sense that you want to feed only one thing in a true food trial, not 3 or 4 or 12 things. Most food ingredients other than highly purified oils contain protein. It's almost always the protein that is the allergen.

 

Here is some information that I have found during my research about Raw Feeding. One of the most fascinating documents that I found was one produced by Champion Pet-foods Ltd, the producers of renowned Acana and Orijen brands of dog food. It says in a round about way, not all dog foods are created equal (of course we know that) but our product mimics the most natural and nutritional form of feeding carnivores possible, next to a whole meat diet. Then proceeds to bust myths around conventional ways of feeding dogs. The document is chalk full of great information cited from reliable sources. If you would like a copy, I can get one to you.

 

Starches do matter, in a less than positive way. Wether simple or complex carbohydrates convert to sugars, sugars that play havoc on the immune system of dogs. AAFCO profiles show that carbohydrates are not essential for dogs and that no minimum level of carbohydrate is needed in their diets. (sorry I can't show a source for this, but I am sure I can locate it if you wish) According to Dr. David S Kronfeld, the liver easily synthesizes sufficient glucose from protiens and fats therefore, carbohydrates are not needed for this function. Who does need these carbohydrates are the kibble manufactures. It is essential in order to provide the structure to "hold together meats and fats, all dry pet foods require some form of carbohydrates. The trick is to keep total carbohydrates at a minimum" - quoted from the Orijen White Paper. Therefore, you have this admittance straight from the horses mouth. While yes all fruits and vegs contain protein the key is feeding a dog digestible protein. Dogs do not have the gut or digestive system to efficiently digest plant matter. "Complex carbohydrates can take a long time to break down in the stomach and/or pass through undigested, creating voluminous stools" - Orijen White Paper. Hope this information gets you thinking, just as it did me.... as for me the research continues.

[Guest Lillypad]

Have you thought of contacting a nutritionist?

 

Do not trust everything you read on the Internet, especially about food. For example, I'm really quite perplexed by the statement that "the breakdown of complex carbohydrates to simple sugars causes allergic reactions". I would like to see the "conclusive research" that makes this claim because, from a biological standpoint, it makes no sense.

 

First, let's understand what the body is meant to do. Our body obtains calories - the energy to run your biological processes - through protein, carbohydrate, and fat. Carbohydrates are not in and of themselves "bad", and dogs do benefit from them as a source of energy. Thus, your body necessarily needs to break down the chemical bonds of complex carbohydrates to turn them into simple sugars for your body to use. Your body runs on simple sugars, and virtually all of digestion and metabolism is simply the break down of complex molecules (i.e. protein and long-chain carbohydrates) into simpler molecules that your body can ACTUALLY use (i.e. amino acids and glucose). This is why prescription diet Z/D is helpful for animals with allergies because the food has already broken down ("hydrolyzed") the proteins in the food. As Batmom has stated already, a large majority of animals are probably allergic to the protein and cannot tolerate breakdown of it. So, the solution is to break down the proteins into amino acids or other smaller components so that the dog's body has less to react to.

 

I wish you luck because, in some sense, you're all right. Dogs have lived for thousands of years on food scraps and have done exceptionally well, so they can pretty much live off garbage. However, you're all also right in that dogs with food intolerance and allergies can sometimes have no rhyme or reason to their afflictions, and so creating a perfect diet can be extremely frustrating if not impossible. I just wish you the best of luck and encourage you to frequently consult a professional nutritionist or your veterinarian.

In my defense, this is not my research, only what I found while researching the composition of kibble. As I mentioned, the most fascinating document was from Champion Pets Foods.

[Hubcitypam]

I posted last week about Nutrisca and no one responded.

Their formulas are supposed to be low glycemic and there is a salmon and chickpea. The sainted Dogfoodadvisor gives it 5 stars and highly recommends it. All I know is that I've never seen dogs crazier about a food - I got chicken and chickpea. It is the same price as Purina One at Kroger.

[Batmom]

There's nothing wrong with carbohydrates. Dogs use cooked carbohydrates quite well. That's been well-substantiated.

 

I've seen no evidence- or science-based, peer-reviewed material that shows sugars "play havoc on the immune system." What part of the immune system? In what way?

 

In any case, the original post is about possible food allergies, which is a different matter.

[Guest Lillypad]

To be perfectly honest, this topic is way over my head. I simply am not educated in the science of dog allergies. However, I will offer one last piece of information to ponder.

Myths about raw feeding. Property of Cariss Kuehn,

 

“Raw diets are not a "cure-all". But is it possible that the conditions can be improved and possibly even relieved.

With the growing number of food allergies pets have, the pet food industry has been becoming more and more creative, trying to find new protein and grain sources to make new 'hypoallergenic' kibbles. Ironically enough, pets switched to a raw diet can often eat the same meats that caused their allergies originally, because the meats are raw and not cooked (Clark, W.R. 1995. Hypersensitivity and Allergy, in At War Within: The double edged sword of immunity, Oxford University Press, New York. pg 88.). The cooking process changes the protein structures, and it is these changed, cooked proteins to which the body has an allergic reaction.

If you feed a premium kibble (or any kibble), please think through why you feed it to your pets. Could they benefit more from a raw diet?

 

And ask the ultimate question: how is a processed diet better for my pets than a diet of fresh, whole, raw foods?” - Carriss Kuehun, B.sc Zoology/Biology, Anatomy and physiology, Clinical Sciences Department CSU Vet Teaching Hospital

Best wishes, sincerely Janette

[Batmom]

When dealing with health topics, it's usually best to rely on science- and evidence-based material rather than popular articles or enthusiast sites.

[Guest Giselle]

When dealing with health topics, it's usually best to rely on science- and evidence-based material rather than popular articles or enthusiast sites.

Or "white papers" (which are essentially marketing tools) by large food companies. As a vet student, I've received my fair share of white papers, and I can't help but shake my head at all of them. They all have the agenda to sell products.

 

As mentioned before, dogs have lived for thousands of years on - literally - human garbage, and they've done exceptionally well as a species. They're incredibly resilient. Yet, allergies and intolerances can be difficult to understand and tease out with our current understandings of animal nutrition. I think it is best to go about food trials in a methodical, evidence-based way, like a true elimination diet or perhaps a prescription diet or consult a nutritionist. Otherwise, you'll be spending a lot of time and energy and perhaps money on trying different diets. I understand the struggle deeply, as my first dog had pretty bad food intolerances (lots of bloody diarrhea episodes) and I finally put him on a home-cooked diet. But that decision was made carefully, deliberately, based on evidence by as reputable a source as I could possibly find, and our veterinarian was never far away.

 

Edit to add: If I recall correctly from my biochem days, converting basic amino acids to glucose is actually an energy intensive process that requires energy being put in. In terms of extracting usable energy for the body to use, it's pretty inefficient. I actually think this the current thinking behind no-carb-human-fad-diets.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Giselle

[Guest grey_dreams]

Carbohydrates are long strands of glucose molecules joined together. Carbohydrates are broken down to glucose. Glucose enters the carboxylic acid cycle (also known as Krebs cycle or tricarboxylic acid cycle), where it is metabolized to generate ATP (among other important secondary metabolites). ATP is the "energy currency" of the cell (the cell dies within seconds if the ATP pool is depleted). ATP can also be produced from beta-oxidation of fats, but that cycle is much less efficient than the TCA cycle. If there is too much flux through the beta-oxidation cycle, due to poor fat-rich diet or some block of the TCA cycle, it leads to serious health problems such as obesity, metabolic disorder, diabetes, heart disease.

 

Complex branched-chain carbohydrates can be a source of allergens, and proteins can be a source of allergens.

[Guest annickaandjef]

Hey y'all,

 

Thank you so much to everyone who replied. Your thoughtful, informed responses are a prime example of why GreyTalk is such an awesome community.

 

We switched Penny to a raw diet about 12 days ago. She's on Primal Duck (single ingredient). The first change we saw immediately. She had to be coaxed to eat her kibble since she came to us - some days she'd eat all, some days she would eat less than half. She didn't seem to take much joy in it. The night we started raw, she smelled the food and went CRAZY. Switching between jumping and sitting (lol), just completely over the moon. She LOVES her food, and her love has not faded at all, at least not yet.

 

She started "biting" her bad legs again a few days in. That made me really worried that our choice of duck - which we knew was a cooling, "novel" protein for her - was not the right choice. But she stopped after about two days of biting again.

 

The one downside that we started to see quickly was that she was losing the weight she had gained since she joined the family, almost two months ago. She was very underweight, and I was really happy that we had gotten her to a good, healthy weight. Five days into her raw food, although we were serving her the recommended amount, we could see many of her ribs and her hip points again. I also attribute this to the fact that we stopped her peanut butter, greek yogurt and other treats to do a real "novel" diet. But we upped her intake of her raw food, and she's gained back a bit over the past week.

 

As I noted in my original post, we've had to cone & crate her every time we left the house since she had a really bad incident during her first few weeks where she got to her back leg in her crate and bit away all the skin and hair. We all hate the cone so much. I hate the fact that she's had to wear the cone for almost two months. You start to wonder what the limit is, you know?

 

Today we decided to risk it and crate her without the cone for 4 hours. It was slightly terrifying to leave the house knowing that there was a chance that she would injure herself...but you have take the plunge some time, right? And she did great! No biting (we've learned the signs), went right back into her crate to lay down after we got home...just a happy dog. She's such a joy. We are trying to find a slightly cheaper option than Primal, but for now we're good.

 

So glad that we tried the raw food. We'll see if she has any other incidents, but the fact that we can crate her without the horrible cone is worth its weight in gold - regardless of the cost of raw duck

 

Edited February 24, 2014 by annickaandjef

[Guest grey_dreams]

Wonderful news to hear the progress! Glad you found something that worked for her. The duck is one of the more expensive preparations. Are you feeding the raw grind that comes in a 5-lb tube? That's the cheapest option. If you feed the burger-type product that is pre-prepared, it is the most expensive option. There are cheaper options than Primal. I tried one (can't remember the company name now, but most natural pet food stores carry it). It was definitely lower quality food, and I went right back to Primal. A cheaper option is to buy meat/organs/raw meaty bones in bulk and do-it-yourself, but that's further than I am willing to go as far as handling. You also have to be careful about getting the right mix, whereas the Primal has already done that. Glad to hear that Penny is getting better.