Analyze This Behaviour

[KickReturn]

Today I fiimed two greetings. The first was a typical Hester greeting. It begins with a leaping approach the last bit of which is seen at the very start of the video. The balance of the interaction is typical and occurs in the majority of cases where Hester actually acknowleges other dog. (Half of the time he just trots by.) Hester had never met these dogs before.

 

 

 

This second video is where it goes bad. For about the last year I have not seen this type of behaviour, certainly nothing this bad. Yes the Deerhound does not avert his gaze, and some of the interaction was just Hester's attempt to play which he is still learning but most of it goes too far for my liking. The Deerhound is two years old. Later it actually got worse at which point I called him to me. Hester would just not chill out as long as the Deerhound was focused on him. The vocalizations are amazing though. Never heard a dog make those sounds. (The Deerhound never made a peep.)

 

Can anyone explain what might trigger this reaction?

 

Edited December 15, 2013 by KickReturn

[Guest kkaiser104]

Definitely not good behavior. I think the owner of the deerhound was in the wrong though--he should not have come off of that leash (not averting his gaze is a strong sign of dominance) and she also was almost encouraging the behavior at the beginning, speaking in a high voice and amping up the energy. Teddi has only ever acted this way with a male dog that was bigger then him. I think the wolfhound was also engaging in negative (dominant) behavior with the little dog around :22. I believe Hester was responding to the dominant behavior by letting him know to back off

Edited December 15, 2013 by kkaiser104

[JJNg]

The first video is a good example of Hester using sniffing as a calming signal.

In the second video, both dogs are a bit aroused, but both seem to be trying to initiate play but are a bit unsure of the other dog. I really don't see anything to be too concerned about. The body language of ears up, tail up and wagging stiffly, and erect stances are typical of dogs that are aroused, not necessarily an indication of dominance. I don't subscribe to the whole idea of dominance theory, but even going by traditional definitions of dominance signaling, I'm not seeing that in the deerhound. I really don't think dominance has a role in this interaction.

During the initial greeting, it was hard to see because the deerhound's owner was in the way, but both dogs seemed to have their ears up but pulled back at some point, an indication of being a bit unsure. The deerhound definitely seems to be the less confident of the 2 dogs, with his posture leaning slightly back during the face-to-face interactions. For the most part, neither dog averts their gaze, which isn't really unexpected if they are wanting to initiate play, and both dogs throw in some play bows, although the deerhound is more obvious about it.

I actually think it was good that the deerhound's owner let him off leash, as the leash can often transfer tension. And based on the owner's commentary and voice, she seemed a little nervous. Her high pitched voice when she was trying to distract certainly didn't help matters.

 

As an aside, seeing these videos, it does look like Hester is a bit heavier than ideal...

 

ETA: Just saw your other post with photos in EEG where you made the comment that "Hester was a terrible bully, very nasty – never seen him show so little patience with another dog." I know you said it got worse later, but I'm really not seeing that in this video. Some dogs are more intense and pushy when they play, and being a less confident dog, the deerhound may have been a little intimidated by Hester's attempts to engage him. Without seeing the following interactions, that's all I'm seeing in Hester's behavior. Many dogs growl when they are initiating play, but some dogs do seem to misinterpret that. My mix Corey used to growl a lot, and even though he was bouncing and playbowing, it scared off many of the dogs he was wanting to play with.

Edited December 15, 2013 by JJNg

[Guest shanesmom]

Did I hear her say the Deerhound was not neutered? For some reason my greyhound Elton hated non neutered dogs. He was absolutely the best natured dog ever with all breeds and sizes unless they were not neutered. I don't know why. He had been for years but could immediately tell if another dog was not.

[JohnF]

The behaviour of the little dog is the key to it. The normal Calming Signal protocols were not being observed by the two larger ones and the little dog thought there may be a fight in the offing.

 

However, the prancing behaviour indicates that both want play even though the (unfixed?) Deerhound stll seems intent on being bossy.

 

My Peggy would 'roar' and prance in that situation rather than 'yap-bark.'

 

My last dog Angel (a Lurcher) would do the 'yap-bark' against a stupid bossy dog and it never turned into a fight. I'd just separate them like you did.

[cometdust1]

Did I hear her say the Deerhound was not neutered? For some reason my greyhound Elton hated non neutered dogs. He was absolutely the best natured dog ever with all breeds and sizes unless they were not neutered. I don't know why. He had been for years but could immediately tell if another dog was not.

Mine too.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

 

 

Never heard a dog make those sounds.

 

That's what my grey sounds like when she's playing with me.

[Guest IrskasMom]

We go everyday to the Park and meet up with some smaller Dogs and another Greyhound . This Boy runs and runs and runs so close to the other Dogs and has a " foul Mouth " as I call it. He just wants to play,urges them on to play and that is when he makes this granting Noises.

[PrairieProf]

Hester is making some funny rooish barking noises but nothing seems bad there to me. Much like how Beth plays. She barks her head off at other dogs when she wants them to run. It's just aroused play. This deerhound acts kind of like the one she has played with, resisting opening up and running -- his mom always calls, "RUN, Bhaltar!" And then she sort of courses him if he does run. I find them a bit wussy compared to greys. Greyhounds are very intense in their play style and mine at least gets pretty frustrated if dogs won't run, since chasing play is what they are most wired for. However, I've been taking her to the dog park for five+ years with minimal problems.

Edited December 15, 2013 by PrairieProf

[Guest k9soul]

My impression is in the 2nd video he is a bit aroused but still playful. Rudy makes snarly noises like that when he's really wired up and into his play. Is it possible he was more excited by meeting another sighthound? It looked like it was a situation where there was the potential to escalate more than it should, but what I saw was mostly high excitement with some arousal.

 

When I take Rudy to fun runs where he's with other greyhounds he definitely plays differently and with more intensity than he does normally.

[Riverhound]

Joe can sound like that when he plays, and he typically doesn't like dogs that are larger than he is.

[KickReturn]

I know you said it got worse later, but I'm really not seeing that in this video.

 

It was like Hester's "play" at the beginning evolved into an attempt to get the Deerhound to stop trying to engage him. More like he was trying to chase him off. The Deerhound ran a couple laps and Hester halfheartedly chased. The Deerhound came back and Hester resumed "harrassing" him. The interaction elevated to Hester snapping a couple of times when the Deerhound wouldn't back off. That's when I recalled him. For Hester, interactions of this type are only one sided. He never allows the other dog to assume the role of aggressor. I am starting to wonder if he has a problem with large breeds. He just doesn't seem to know how to play - it's as if this type of interaction is an intense competition.

 

Did I hear her say the Deerhound was not neutered? For some reason my greyhound Elton hated non neutered dogs. He was absolutely the best natured dog ever with all breeds and sizes unless they were not neutered. I don't know why. He had been for years but could immediately tell if another dog was not.

 

Hester doesn't seem to be bothered by testicles one way or the other. (other than maybe wishing he still had his.)

 

 

The behaviour of the little dog is the key to it. The normal Calming Signal protocols were not being observed by the two larger ones and the little dog thought there may be a fight in the offing.

 

I thought Hester did very well with the little dog. He seemed to switch off immediately, gave a polite sniff, and then got back to business with the Deerhound.

Edited December 15, 2013 by KickReturn

[JJNg]

It was like Hester's "play" at the beginning evolved into an attempt to get the Deerhound to stop trying to engage him. More like he was trying to chase him off. The Deerhound ran a couple laps and Hester halfheartedly chased. The Deerhound came back and Hester resumed "harrassing" him. The interaction elevated to Hester snapping a couple of times when the Deerhound wouldn't back off. That's when I recalled him. For Hester, interactions of this type are only one sided. He never allows the other dog to assume the role of aggressor. I am starting to wonder if he has a problem with large breeds. He just doesn't seem to know how to play - it's as if this type of interaction is an intense competition.

 

Toward the end of the second video, I was wondering if Hester was still trying to play or attempting to chase off the deerhound. His facial expression seems a little more tense than just wanting to play. Your addition information confirms that he had perhaps had enough. Interestingly, while the deerhound is focused on Hester, he's not making a lot of advances. Hester is the one who seems to move toward the deerhound and initiate most of the interactions.

 

The behaviour of the little dog is the key to it. The normal Calming Signal protocols were not being observed by the two larger ones and the little dog thought there may be a fight in the offing.

 

I thought Hester did very well with the little dog. He seemed to switch off immediately, gave a polite sniff, and then got back to business with the Deerhound.

 

I think JohnF was referring to the observation that the little dog seems a bit uncomfortable with the interaction between Hester and the deerhound. He keeps his distance through most of the video and runs away when Hester snarks and jumps at the deerhound. IMO, this could mean that the little dog senses some conflict, or he might just not be very well socialized and is uncomfortable with other dogs.

 

However, the prancing behaviour indicates that both want play even though the (unfixed?) Deerhound stll seems intent on being bossy.

 

I really don't see anything to indicate the deerhound is being bossy. I see an excited young dog who wants to play, but is being cautious and backs off when the other dog tells him off. The signals I'm looking at are how the deerhound has his weight shifted back, playbows, and runs away when Hester barks/growls and jumps toward him.

[KickReturn]

 

Toward the end of the second video, I was wondering if Hester was still trying to play or attempting to chase off the deerhound. His facial expression seems a little more tense than just wanting to play. Your addition information confirms that he had perhaps had enough.

 

 

This how the situation felt at the time.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, while the deerhound is focused on Hester, he's not making a lot of advances. Hester is the one who seems to move toward the deerhound and initiate most of the interactions.

 

I really don't see anything to indicate the deerhound is being bossy. I see an excited young dog who wants to play, but is being cautious and backs off when the other dog tells him off. The signals I'm looking at are how the deerhound has his weight shifted back, playbows, and runs away when Hester barks/growls and jumps toward him.

 

Except for when the Deerhound takes a quick shot at Hester near the beginning of the video and then again when Hester leads off responding to the owners voice, this is how I interpreted it also which is why a am a bit concerned. It's like Hester is absolutely demanding complete compliance to some behaviour and will not quit till he gets it. He has done this with Greyhounds also but as soon as the ears go up the other Greys respond immediately so there is no escalation - that's the end of it. And he settles as soon as the other dogs slow down and engage in calm, respectful sniffing.

 

The other thought I have is that he may be asking to other dog to run so he can chase. And when that doesn't work out he doesn't know what to do.

 

It is all very out of place for a dog the generally has very high emotional intelligence. Afterall this is a major energy expenditure for a dog that has already had a decent run and was just finishing an hour and a half hike. He is generally so good that I wonder if there isn't a very good reason for such agressive, competitive behaviour. Nonetheless, I still don't find it acceptable. Further I don't think this can be trained out of him. Fortunately I can call him out of it and leash him.

[MaryJane]

Hester is chasing the deerhound away from the rest of the dogs - so he is not playing.

 

A bit concerning is that Hester is doing the jumps to the deerhound which is leaving his underside unprotected (front chest area and throat). If another dog like a rottie or pit decided to go for him, they could do some serious damage before you have a chance to call him away. Pit bulls instinctively go for the throat and just latch on.

Edited December 16, 2013 by MaryJane

[a_daerr]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing or understanding where the problem is here.

 

His tail is wagging, and they're both play-bowing and jumping toward each other. This is exactly how my guys play with each other and other greyhounds. They bark and sometimes make snarl-y noises and mean-looking faces. It's been typical chase-and-be-chased, bitey-face play behavior. One grey that we petsit from time to time (GT'er jenniferk's Django) will actually bark in my dogs' faces and not stop until they run with him. OTOH, I've definitely seen my guys in tense greetings with strange dogs. When this happens, it's clear they're uncomfortable and the signals are very clear. Growling, warning snap, whale eye, trying to get away. They would never wag their tail or play-bow at a dog they were scared of. I wouldn't be too concerned about this.

[KickReturn]

 

A bit concerning is that Hester is doing the jumps to the deerhound which is leaving his underside unprotected (front chest area and throat). If another dog like a rottie or pit decided to go for him, they could do some serious damage before you have a chance to call him away. Pit bulls instinctively go for the throat and just latch on.

 

Hester encounters Pit Bulls and Rotweilers on a regular basis. He simply does not display this type of behaviour with those dogs. He just avoids them or allows them to sniff his butt.

 

 

Sorry, but I'm not seeing or understanding where the problem is here.

 

His tail is wagging, and they're both play-bowing and jumping toward each other. This is exactly how my guys play with each other and other greyhounds. They bark and sometimes make snarl-y noises and mean-looking faces. It's been typical chase-and-be-chased, bitey-face play behavior. One grey that we petsit from time to time (GT'er jenniferk's Django) will actually bark in my dogs' faces and not stop until they run with him. OTOH, I've definitely seen my guys in tense greetings with strange dogs. When this happens, it's clear they're uncomfortable and the signals are very clear. Growling, warning snap, whale eye, trying to get away. They would never wag their tail or play-bow at a dog they were scared of. I wouldn't be too concerned about this.

 

I don't disagree with you but not shown on the video is that this did escalate to Hester snapping a couple of times. The Deerhound did become a bit frightened but was not clever enough to back off and Hester would not let it go either. Maybe he is just not good at playing.

[JJNg]

The other thought I have is that he may be asking to other dog to run so he can chase. And when that doesn't work out he doesn't know what to do.

 

This thought crossed my mind too, but I didn't think this was the case when you said that he only half-heartedly chased when the deerhound did run a couple laps.

 

Even though Hester's behavior may be undesireable, like Alicia, I really don't see it as a huge problem. Even when he seems to be trying to warn off the other dog, at least in the video, he is doing it without going overboard, and the other dog doesn't seem too upset by it. Since he gives plenty of warnings and appropriate signals, I would just continue what you've been doing to call him out of it and leash him before it escalates.

 

Many times, we can't fully understand the motivations behind a dog's actions, and I think it's a bit presumptive to think that he is "demanding complete compliance" from the other dog. Sometimes it's best to just try to observe the behavior objectively, and figure out how to address it to prevent problems without necessarily assigning a reason or motive to it.

[Guest kkaiser104]

 

This thought crossed my mind too, but I didn't think this was the case when you said that he only half-heartedly chased when the deerhound did run a couple laps.

 

Even though Hester's behavior may be undesireable, like Alicia, I really don't see it as a huge problem. Even when he seems to be trying to warn off the other dog, at least in the video, he is doing it without going overboard, and the other dog doesn't seem too upset by it. Since he gives plenty of warnings and appropriate signals, I would just continue what you've been doing to call him out of it and leash him before it escalates.

 

Many times, we can't fully understand the motivations behind a dog's actions, and I think it's a bit presumptive to think that he is "demanding complete compliance" from the other dog. Sometimes it's best to just try to observe the behavior objectively, and figure out how to address it to prevent problems without necessarily assigning a reason or motive to it.

 

This. It's not something I would fret over--of course, we all get a little flustered in the moment, but after the fact I wouldn't be concerned about Hester having a problem with bigger dogs. You're a very observant owner so just continue that and realize that dogs are dogs and we cannot understand/justify every action.

[Guest Waterdog66]

It is interesting to look at the tails in both videos.

 

I don't know enough yet to draw conclusions from it but the two interactions would seem to be different from the perspective of Hester.

 

I have no idea if it is something to be concerned about or not though. Seems like after a few tense moments, Hester was feeling good enough to be wagging his tail and play bowing with the other dog. maybe they are just not BFF yet.

[Guest Giselle]

Many times, we can't fully understand the motivations behind a dog's actions, and I think it's a bit presumptive to think that he is "demanding complete compliance" from the other dog. Sometimes it's best to just try to observe the behavior objectively, and figure out how to address it to prevent problems without necessarily assigning a reason or motive to it.

Exactly. Contrary to popular belief, dogs are not obsessed with power and control. They don't care about "compliance" because to care about another creature's compliance necessarily demands a high functioning theory of mind. As far as we know, dogs do not possess a sophisticated theory of mind, and, because of this, true behavior analyses cannot make claims like "dogs demand compliance" from each other.

 

Also, Pit Bulls DO NOT instinctively "go for the throat and latch on" any more than a Deerhound or Dachshund. Dogs are dogs. They are not furry people, and they are not power-obsessed, controlling, murderous creatures. These misconceptions need to go away now and go away fast because, quite frankly, it's a little offensive.

[KickReturn]

Contrary to popular belief, dogs are not obsessed with power and control. They don't care about "compliance" because to care about another creature's compliance necessarily demands a high functioning theory of mind. As far as we know, dogs do not possess a sophisticated theory of mind, and, because of this, true behavior analyses cannot make claims like "dogs demand compliance" from each other.

 

 

Maybe you misunderstand what I mean by compliance, it may have absolutely nothing to do with power or control. Rather it seemed that Hester was seeking a specific behaviour from the Deerhound. Maybe run, maybe stand still, turn around, I have no idea exactly what he wanted, but he wanted something or he wanted the absence of something. That first video was taken 30 seconds before the Deerhound interaction, both started exactly the same but they ended so differently. What I want to know is why. This is not random expression by Hester in the absence of stimuli.

 

Hester in fact demands specific behaviour from me all the time so why not of other dogs? When he wants to go for a walk he will push me with his forehead toward the door. I have a girlie dog staying with me now who demands all sorts of behaviours. She yodels when she wants me to get her food, she grabs my legs with both her front paws when she wants to be hugged, and she whimpers pitiously when she wants to be invited on the bed (she is the very best doggie in the world). When I comply and demonstrate the desired behaviour the demanding behaviours are extinguished. This girllie dog also has very clear demands for Hester which is always either lets play, or can I try your bed. She gets compliance with the bed sometimes but never the play.

Edited December 18, 2013 by KickReturn