Help With Training?

[Guest joviemom]

I have always owned bird dog breeds (labs and setters) so training in general is not a new concept to me. What is new is that Jovie seems to be completely unmotivated by food. I have taught her come, go lay down, retrieve (her favorite lol) and stay. But the two that have been extremely hard for me are sit and down.

 

The reason I am having trouble with them is I cannot get Jovie to focus on me long enough to get her to sit or go down. I tried cheese, hot dogs, treats, etc. and she is not interested in any of them (she actually generally refuses to take treats out of your hand anyways). I am having trouble finding something to get her to focus on to get her to rock back to sit. Instead she gets squirmy and wants to play lol. She will look at me for about 1/2 a second and then she starts looking around and squirming about looking at everything and trying to walk off to get toys.

 

For all the commands she knows now her major reward was pets/loving.

 

Any tips or tricks would be really appreciated!

[Brandiandwe]

Could you work with her the same way as police dogs or bully breeds tend to be worked? So the reward is a toy or a game of tug-of-war or a couple of minutes with the stuffy? So then she does what you want, its a big 'Yes!' praise and the stuffy (or tea-towel or ball or whatever) gets given/ thrown. Would that work?

 

I also have a non-food motivated hound and she works for praise rather than food. I do sympathise!

[Guest Giselle]

If you withhold your dog's usual breakfast/dinner and use that food instead to train, you'll find that your pup probably IS motivated for food.

 

I've trained many species of animals, and all animals are driven by food (and sex - usually ). It's just an intrinsic part of every animal's biology. If your dog is FULL, though, she won't work for food. Try withholding a meal or feeding less of a meal, and then use the hunger as motivation.

 

Also, a lot of people blame dogs for being "disinterested" or "bored". The likelier scenario is that the training is too difficult for the animal. So, the animal gets frustrated or stressed and "tunes out". If the small steps we ask animals to perform aren't doable, they won't do it. They'll get upset and give up, especially if the animals don't have a lot of experience with shaping behaviors. So, when in doubt, videorecord yourself and share it with more experienced trainers. More than likely, there is an element of human error involved, and we can't figure it out unless we watch and review ourselves.

[Guest DragonflyDM]

I have always owned bird dog breeds (labs and setters) so training in general is not a new concept to me. What is new is that Jovie seems to be completely unmotivated by food. I have taught her come, go lay down, retrieve (her favorite lol) and stay. But the two that have been extremely hard for me are sit and down.

 

The reason I am having trouble with them is I cannot get Jovie to focus on me long enough to get her to sit or go down. I tried cheese, hot dogs, treats, etc. and she is not interested in any of them (she actually generally refuses to take treats out of your hand anyways). I am having trouble finding something to get her to focus on to get her to rock back to sit. Instead she gets squirmy and wants to play lol. She will look at me for about 1/2 a second and then she starts looking around and squirming about looking at everything and trying to walk off to get toys.

 

For all the commands she knows now her major reward was pets/loving.

 

Any tips or tricks would be really appreciated!

 

---- I was exactly like you. I have always has some sort of Spaniel or other working dog breed. I could train them to do almost anything in a day or so. Boomer is not easily trained, but I have stay, return, crate, etc. I am really challenged on sit or down because he isn't really interested in doing either of those naturally. It is what keeps my good canine and therapy certifications at bay.

 

I even do the rewards the same way-- food possibly at first, praise only later on.

 

I am currently waiting for an opening with a greyhound behavioral specialist who has had lots of success specifically with greyhounds.

 

I don't find that even a food motivate dog that really doesn't "get" what you are asking is going to perform.

 

That is the problem with my grey--- he just doesn't understand what I want him to do in order to get his reward. Stay was simple. Come was simple. Eat there was simple. Off the bed was simple. He gets all that because he understands what I am asking.

 

So you could starve Boomer for days and he will still not sit or lay on command-- because unlike most dogs I have worked with who naturally sit or lay down looking at you for the next command-- Boomer normally stands up and leans against me. He just doesn't "see" where my thought process is going on those two commands. I would think that is the same with the original poster.

[krissy]

---- I was exactly like you. I have always has some sort of Spaniel or other working dog breed. I could train them to do almost anything in a day or so. Boomer is not easily trained, but I have stay, return, crate, etc. I am really challenged on sit or down because he isn't really interested in doing either of those naturally. It is what keeps my good canine and therapy certifications at bay.

 

I even do the rewards the same way-- food possibly at first, praise only later on.

 

I am currently waiting for an opening with a greyhound behavioral specialist who has had lots of success specifically with greyhounds.

 

I don't find that even a food motivate dog that really doesn't "get" what you are asking is going to perform.

 

That is the problem with my grey--- he just doesn't understand what I want him to do in order to get his reward. Stay was simple. Come was simple. Eat there was simple. Off the bed was simple. He gets all that because he understands what I am asking.

 

So you could starve Boomer for days and he will still not sit or lay on command-- because unlike most dogs I have worked with who naturally sit or lay down looking at you for the next command-- Boomer normally stands up and leans against me. He just doesn't "see" where my thought process is going on those two commands. I would think that is the same with the original poster.

 

This is true up to a point.

 

All dogs need to learn how to learn. And for retired racers that is sometimes more difficult because they don't start as young puppies. I see the difference between my dogs being huge when it comes to the initial phase of learning. Kili is a puppy and picked up quickly on learning because she didn't really know anything else. Summit is easy to train as well, but first I had to show him how to train because he spent the first 5.5 years of his life not being asked to "lure". It's not that he didn't learn anything in those previous years, it's just he was never asked to follow a food lure in the way a human wanted him to. Once he learned his first command with the lure everything went much faster.

 

Also remember that just like people some individuals are just smarter than others, or smarter in certain aspects of learning. Some dogs need things broken down into the tiniest steps. Other dogs are able to make bigger leaps.

 

For example, when I was first teaching Summit to lay down (his first command) I taught him to lay down under my leg (I have a video of this with Kili here, and Jen also has it on her site NeverSayNeverGreyhounds). It's not like he just lured under my leg and dropped into a down. And I didn't expect him to. Which means I didn't withhold the treat waiting for him to get all the way down. At first I gave him the treat for just putting his head under my leg. Then I waited until his elbows bent. Then I waited until he was in a play bow. Then I waited until he was in a down.

 

The best example I have of this is when I taught Summit how to retrieve. I did a really detailed explanation of this (part 1, part 2). He literally wouldn't LOOK at a toy. So I couldn't jump to throwing a toy and expecting him to get it. I couldn't even expect him to pick up a toy. I couldn't expect him to grab a toy. Sometimes you need to be VERY creative and VERY patient. Summit now LOVES to retrieve (evidence).

[GeorgeofNE]

I also grew up with bird dogs--very easy to train English Setters.

 

I find George has ZERO interest in pleasing me, although he is food motivated.

 

I taught sit with the tried and true "tuck and fold" method--no treats, and then from there moved to down.

 

What I cannot get him to do is stay. And he's a ninja! I get him laying on his bed, I tell him to stay, give him his hand signal, turn around, and he's right behind me!

 

To be perfectly honest, I've given up.

 

He walks nicely on a leash, he pees outside (mostly!), he doesn't bark, jump up, steal food, or eat my cat. He's handsome, and he's retired from a prior successful and moderately long career. You can't have it all.

 

Just my opinion about my own dog.

[a_daerr]

Have you tried a basic obedience class? Lots of grey owners from my class were adamant that their dog could/would not sit. Then, by the time class was over, every single one of them could sit. Sometimes you just need the help of a professional to show you the right method.

[Guest joviemom]

I actually am staring an obedience class next month! Super excited about it (and nervous, she is a bit of a spook so I am not sure how it will pan out)

 

I think a few posters hit the nail on the head by saying how easy to train setters are. I know thats where im struggling. My old dog new basically every command you could think of and I really didnt have to "work" to get him to do them. So now that my dog is looking at me like..hu? I am stumped! lol

 

It will be interesting to see what the obedience trainer says, she came really highly recommended from local grey owners.

 

Krissy - I like how you taught lay down. My struggling point would be the treat I think because she wont take a treat from my hand!

[JJNg]

Regarding Jovie not being food motivated...how much of it is truly not being interested in the food vs. not being comfortable taking it form your hand? If you put the treat down, will she take it? I've fostered a couple dogs who were food motivated, but still reluctant to take treats from my hand. It took a little work to first get them comfortable taking treats out of my hand before I could effectively use them as a reward.

[Guest grey_dreams]

You've taught her go lay down but say she won't go down. Maybe the problem is the surfaces that you are asking her to go down on? Some hounds are leery of cold, slick surfaces, or concrete. For us, down was one of the first and easiest to learn because I just captured it with a clicker. But it took more time and trust for them to down on surfaces they didn't like. And I almost never ask them to do it for that reason (but I don't train for competitive obedience).

[Guest joviemom]

Regarding Jovie not being food motivated...how much of it is truly not being interested in the food vs. not being comfortable taking it form your hand? If you put the treat down, will she take it? I've fostered a couple dogs who were food motivated, but still reluctant to take treats from my hand. It took a little work to first get them comfortable taking treats out of my hand before I could effectively use them as a reward.

 

She will generally eat it. If I show her food (or anything for that matter) in my hand she goes into instant greyhound super spin mode. When she stops if I ease forward and let her smell it she will fly backwards and go back into spin mode.

 

I think your right, I dont think its about not being food motivated, I think its more than I cant get her to take the treat! haha

 

You've taught her go lay down but say she won't go down. Maybe the problem is the surfaces that you are asking her to go down on? Some hounds are leery of cold, slick surfaces, or concrete. For us, down was one of the first and easiest to learn because I just captured it with a clicker. But it took more time and trust for them to down on surfaces they didn't like. And I almost never ask them to do it for that reason (but I don't train for competitive obedience).

 

I taught her the go lay down cue really gradually and it was more of her "teaching" herself. So every time she would lay down on her bed I would give the command and then praise. I think she just associates that cue with her bed more than not wanting to lay on other surfaces.

[RedHead]

I had posted something very similar to you a while ago. I was trying to do some training and things were going soooo slow, plus like yours, Teague didn't seem overly food motivated. He will take food from my hand but won't lure, whether because he is too "polite" or due to the fact he just doesn't get it, I don't know I watched all the videos on lying and sitting, but it doesn't work here because he will not follow the food. So...instead of food I have started using a target stick/clicker reward to lure him. He knows if he touches the stick with his nose he gets a reward, so I can use that to move and lure him.

 

I almost gave up after it took two weeks to teach a reliable paw shake, but then I decided to just have fun with things and forget about sit and lie down and work with the clicker on easier things like targeting, paw, spin, kiss, come, stay, etc. I can honestly say he is definitely starting to get things easier and faster and at least now understands that training means that he has to offer up new behaviours to get rewarded. He does not, and probably never will, train as fast as the other dogs (or rats!) I have trained, but we are having fun and definitely making progress. We have to use a greasy, messy mixture of chopped rotisserie chicken and beefroast/ beefheart here, hotdogs, cheese, etc. do not keep his interest. Finding a food that truly motivates is also key.

 

 

[JJNg]

She will generally eat it. If I show her food (or anything for that matter) in my hand she goes into instant greyhound super spin mode. When she stops if I ease forward and let her smell it she will fly backwards and go back into spin mode.

 

I think your right, I dont think its about not being food motivated, I think its more than I cant get her to take the treat! haha

Sounds like she gets super excited about the idea of a treat but doesn't know how to take it from your hand. What happens if you just offer the treat in an open palm and wait for her to calm down? Don't ease it toward her, just wait for her to come to you when she's ready? Different things work for different dogs, so how to teach her to take a treat from you will depend on her response. For dogs who will eat the treat off the floor, I've started with sitting down and holding the treat in my open palm on the floor. Or if the dog won't take it that way, start with the treat on the floor next to your open palm before trying it in your hand.

[Guest joviemom]

So I have been trying out just sitting and waiting for her to take a treat out of my hand and I have had success! She took treats out of my hand today!!!

 

I must say I have not laughed so hard in my life watching her learning to take it from my hand. I believe she may have broke the sound barrier with her greyhound spins!

 

The first time she took one from my hand she finally stopped spinning and was so excited she could barely contain herself. She would touch it with her mouth, then go back into super spins. Once she finally took it in her mouth from my hand she went into spins with it in her mouth! So funny!

[Batmom]

Good job!

 

Your girl sounds like an absolute hoot. Enjoy every minute!

[EllenEveBaz]

You and your little Spinning Jovie may enjoy this approach to teaching to sit: http://www.geocities.ws/katnexta/articleSit.html. It's by the late Kathleen Gilley.