Question For Experienced People - Analyze This Behavior

[jetcitywoman]

Batmom, that's what we were thinking. When she has an accident, it's never just a few drops.

 

I've asked DH if he gives her plenty of opportunity to pee on his morning walks or does he rush her to walk briskly for exercise and he says that he definitely allows her to potty as much as she wants. I believe him, but it does make me wonder why sometimes when I take her out just before I leave - which is sometimes only 15 minutes after the walk - she dumps a full bladder.

[rschultz]

If she doesn't pee when her bladder was emptied before you left, she isn't peeing from SA (a nervous dog can always squeeze out a few drops). She's peeing because she has a full bladder and that in itself may be making her nervous (Oh, crap, they left and I HAVE TO PEE! WHATAMIGONNADOOOOOOOOO????!). Simple solution, requires no drugs -- take the dog out for a pee before you leave.

I agree..After you are in your coat and ready to leave take her out to pee then leave gl

[Batmom]

FWIW, I have had dogs (and have one now) who needed to learn that Sometimes We Are Required To Pee Even If We Don't Have To Go Very Bad Right Now. We use our potty phrase to encourage the behavior, and dog catches on pretty quickly.

 

Have also had dogs who go out and pee right after eating, and then need a second pee @ 1.5 hours later to be comfortable for a good long while.

 

Not saying your dog doesn't have any SA, just that if this is the main manifestation, you may be able to work through it with strategy alone. Doesn't sound like she is terribly stressed when you leave. It isn't abnormal for a dog to watch you go, wait/listen around for a few to see if you're coming back, or even do a little vocalizing when he/she really hoped to go, too.

[LadyGrey]

When I leave the house, I always say this to the girls, "Hold the fort down". They immediately KNOW that when I say that, they are staying home while I am going out. They are content with that. I have been using that term for 17 years and it works like a charm.

 

So a word or sentence that signifies that she is staying in while you are going out may help her realize that it is time to stay.

[philospher77]

I haven't read the other replies, and don't know the whole back-story, but based on what I saw, I'd be looking into getting a doggie-door if I could. I got the impression that she didn't want to go inside the house, but, since she couldn't get out, did.

 

So, my questions would be:

 

1. Is she getting a chance to fully relieve herself before you leave?

2. Is this new, and has she been checked for UTIs?

3. Does it happen at roughly the same time? In other words, is it a matter of getting your schedules to mesh? You want her to go at 8, she'd rather go at 9...

 

There is some whining on some of the tapes, but I am not seeing a whole lot of stress signs, and the whining was off-camera, so I can't be sure what was going on there.

[philospher77]

Just curious on the "away phrases" that other people use.... am I am the only one who actually tells the pets when I am coming back? My general announcement to the house when I am leaving is "I'll be home at X". I'll be back for lunch, I'll be back for dinner, I'll be back in a couple hours, I'll be home for lunch late (on days that I have meetings that mess with my regular routines), etc. Generally followed by "you all be good girls til then!" I don't know if animals really do pick up on our mental images, but if they do, that is supposed to give the dog an image of when you will be back, so that they don't worry about you just leaving.

[Guest cwholsin]

Independance training and alone training are the same thing. If she gets nervous when you're gone, she would benefit from alone traingng... Whether or not it's part of the peeing behavior. If she still has accidents there over time, you may need to restrict her access to that spot until she gets out of the habit of using that as a pee spot.

[JJNg]

I'm really puzzled by the diagnosis of separation anxiety by the behaviorist, as well as all the responses here that come to the same conclusion. I even went back and watched all 7 videos again to see if I was missing anything, and I still don't see it. The only time I see her show signs of anxiety seems to be when she needs to pee and can't get outside, so ends up having to pee inside. That's also the only time I heard any whining, so I think she's whining because she has to pee. Once she's done peeing, she settles back down on the couch and goes to sleep.

The rest of the time, I see a dog who is resting or sleeping quietly on the couch when she's alone. In all the 'goodbye' videos, I don't see any signs of anxiety as you and your husband are getting ready, leaving, or after you leave. In one video she sleeps through the whole process. And in the long 13-min video, she hopped up on the couch within 10 seconds of you leaving and is out of frame, but quiet and presumably sleeping the rest of the video, including through the process of your husband getting ready and finally leaving.

I also don't think Capri looks depressed, just calm. And that kind of departure - calm, quiet, without any fussing - is exactly what you want, especially when you're concerned about separation anxiety.

Vets and behaviorists differ in how quickly they reach for drugs, but I personally wouldn't medicate this dog. And I'm not sure I really see an indication for alone training either. If just making sure she empties before you leave stops the accidents, that's really all you need to do. I haven't met Capri in person, but what I'm seeing from the videos and your description seems pretty straightforward.

I echo Batmom's question of "If she doesn't pee when she's been out before you leave, what behavior would you be hoping to change with a regime of clomicalm and behavioral modification?" Right now, it looks like she sleeps when you leave. If you start doing exercises like the trail of treats to the door when you leave, I'm afraid you might actually create problems.

However when the behaviorist visited, after we'd chatted for a while, she asked DH and I to step out of the house so she could see how the dogs responded. Capri got anxious - fixating on the door and then for a while after we returned, she would orient herself to facing me where ever I was in the room.

The behaviorist commented that greyhound behavior is much more subtle than other breeds, so everything seems turned way down.

Is this why the behaviorist thinks Capri has separation anxiety? What did she think about all the 'goodbye' videos? IMO, how she acts when there's a stranger in the home isn't always a good example to go by. She may be wondering why you left her in the house with a stranger. The videos of how she acts when you leave as part of your normal routine are a better indicator.

I agree that in some ways greyhound behavior is more subtle, but most cases of separation anxiety in greyhounds is far from subtle.

I've asked DH if he gives her plenty of opportunity to pee on his morning walks or does he rush her to walk briskly for exercise and he says that he definitely allows her to potty as much as she wants. I believe him, but it does make me wonder why sometimes when I take her out just before I leave - which is sometimes only 15 minutes after the walk - she dumps a full bladder.

Giving her plenty of opportunity to pee doesn't necessarily mean that she does. Maybe he's walking her in areas that she finds very interesting to explore and she forgets to pee. Is he watching to make sure that she actually does pee before he comes home every day?

Ah, this will sound harsh, but.... she's trying to play me in that video. .... as soon as the leash is clicked on, she drops the "please don't beat me" act and bouncily goes out. But I can say that she only did that the first couple times we required a before-leaving potty break. Once she understood that it was required, she happily goes out.

I was wondering if this was the case. Willow used to do the exact same thing when she wanted to come to work with me and didn't want to go into her crate. She'd run to the door, lay down and roll over when I asked her to crate up. I just ignored the behavior, put her on leash and walked her to the crate, and after trying it a couple times, she stopped.

Re: the clip where she pees right after you leave
If she had needed to pee that badly, she would have been at the door to go out before you left as well.

It looks like Capri signals by going to the door, but maybe she didn't think about it a couple minutes earlier before the owner left. Also not all dogs signal that they need to go out. I have 6 dogs here at the moment, and only 1 of them tells me when he needs to go out. And 2 other ones will act very restless if they're about to explode, but they don't go to the door. The other 3 just go out and pee when everyone else does. I've always taken my dogs out right before I leave and watch to make sure they all pee, so maybe they've just never needed to tell me.

FWIW, I have had dogs (and have one now) who needed to learn that Sometimes We Are Required To Pee Even If We Don't Have To Go Very Bad Right Now.

Wiki was one who needed to learn this. He's also the only one who asks to go out, but he only asks when he can barely hold it anymore. Until he learned this, we had a lot of standoffs. He'd come to the door and want to go in. I'd send him back out into the yard and tell him to "go potty". And this would repeat until he finally peed, sometimes over an hour later. We did this both when I had to leave the house and at bedtime. Otherwise, I'd come home to an accident, or he'd wake me up in the middle of the night needing to pee.

[rschultz]

Just curious on the "away phrases" that other people use.... am I am the only one who actually tells the pets when I am coming back? My general announcement to the house when I am leaving is "I'll be home at X". I'll be back for lunch, I'll be back for dinner, I'll be back in a couple hours, I'll be home for lunch late (on days that I have meetings that mess with my regular routines), etc. Generally followed by "you all be good girls til then!" I don't know if animals really do pick up on our mental images, but if they do, that is supposed to give the dog an image of when you will be back, so that they don't worry about you just leaving.

I just say"I will be back later" and Lexie knows I am leaving without her.

[Guest Giselle]

I still think there is an element of anxiety here. Allow me to explain my train of thought, which will probably help explain what your behaviorist thinks, as well. The bottom line question that you seem to be asking is this: Is Capri's urination a psychological/anxiety-driven issue OR a purely physiological issue? I believe it has a strong psychological component.

 

1) You're gone for 4-5 hours in these videos, correct? If Capri has only a physiological issue, she shouldn't be able to "hold it" for longer than 4-5 hours, whether you are home or not. But it seems that she has the physiological ability to "hold it" for more than 4-5 hours when you are home. It is when you are away that the urinating becomes apparent.

 

2) In behavior medicine, we analyze clear observations, not speculations. The observations of Capri show very clear signs of anxiety. I work in an animal behavior laboratory, and a few of our projects deal with animal frustration and stress. Every behavior I noted in my first post are very established stress/anxiety behaviors in the scientific community, and they are ones that are often recorded in research.

 

3) However, while we know that she shows anxiety behaviors, we can't make speculations about WHY they're there. We can't say that she's anxious because she "knows" she's doing something wrong or that she's "not supposed" to be doing something. What we can say with absolute certainty is that these behaviors occur while you're away. Do these anxiety behaviors occur when people are home? If Capri can "hold" a semi-full bladder for many hours when you're home but she shows anxiety and pees when you are gone, there is strong evidence to suggest that there is a component of anxiety that causes this behavior. This is why your behaviorist probably does not believe that it's only a physiological problem and that there is a strong psychological component.

 

Now, seeing that she does not present with typical or classic SA, it's more than likely that an empty bladder may help avoid accidents, but you should still videotape her. That videotape (the one you take of a Capri w/ a DEFINITELY empty bladder in the morning) will have the answer to your questions.

[cometdust1]

I think the suggestion of videoing after having a totally empty bladder is definately the solution to finding out if she has S/A or not!

[JJNg]

Giselle, did you watch any or all of the Capri-goodbye videos (there are 4 of them)? I don't see any anxiety signals outside of when she needs to pee. I suspect videos of her on an empty bladder when left home alone would be similar - she sleeps like any normal greyhound.

 

ETA: I think at least one of the 'goodbye' videos (Capri-goodbye4) is on an empty bladder, since the video starts with her being taken outside on leash before they leave the house.

Edited January 6, 2013 by JJNg

[Guest Giselle]

Yes, I watched all of them multiple times. Like I said in a previous post, the first video "Capri Potty1" shows classic SA signs. The other videos show fewer or no classic or typical SA signs. As I also said before, I think she has an interesting and atypical case of anxiety.

 

Unfortunately, there is no equivalent of the DSM that I know of for companion animal mental health issues. But behavioral disorders fall on a spectrum, and I don't think it's odd at all that Capri shows variable degrees of anxiety due to various different environmental factors.

 

Also, if it is a purely physiological issue, my question remains: Can Capri "hold" a semi-full bladder for 4-5+ hours when people are home? If so, then...??

Edited January 6, 2013 by Giselle

[JJNg]

Ok, I see what you're saying, Giselle. So the pertinent question is how often does Capri ask to go out, or how often is she let out, when people are home. I also believe that some dogs are more willing/able to "hold it" when they really need to go than others. And one who is less willing to hold it a little longer and be uncomfortable is probably more likely to have accidents when no one is home because they don't get any negative feedback for going in the house.

 

Also, do you not think it's possible that the anxiety signals are directly related to being uncomfortable and needing to pee, and not necessarily separation anxiety?

Edited January 6, 2013 by JJNg

[jetcitywoman]

Fantastic discussion, thank you everybody! I'm digesting all of this, and even got DH to read the conversation.

 

To the last couple questions about having an empty bladder: yes most of the goodbye videos are when she's empty. Especially the ones with the higher numbers on the video name. (I.e. goodbye1 was on day 1, goodbye4 was later in the week)

 

Also, I suspect that the video "study" is skewed because we actually made changes in her routine during it. In Potty1, she's obviously got a full bladder when I leave, and that's when she has the most stress signals. Halfway through this one-week study, I decided we should start requiring a before-leaving potty break. It's hard to tell from the videos if that helped because I didn't think to put either a calendar or a clock in view of the camera.

 

I wasn't reading her stress signals as "oh, I feel bad about having an accident". I was reading them as "ouch, my bladder is full and I can't get outside!"

Edited January 6, 2013 by jetcitywoman

[jetcitywoman]

Ok, I see what you're saying, Giselle. So the pertinent question is how often does Capri ask to go out, or how often is she let out, when people are home. I also believe that some dogs are more willing/able to "hold it" when they really need to go than others. And one who is less willing to hold it a little longer and be uncomfortable is probably more likely to have accidents when no one is home because they don't get any negative feedback for going in the house.

 

Also, do you not think it's possible that the anxiety signals are directly related to being uncomfortable and needing to pee, and not necessarily separation anxiety?

 

When we're home, I think there are two mitigating factors:

1. DH tends to walk them longer in the morning because he doesn't have to go to work. I think this is the big one.

2. When we're home, she knows she can ask to be let out any time.

 

I think in addition to being willing/able to hold it, there are individual differences in bladder "size". (Or is this what you mean?) Some people get teased that they have a bladder the size of an acorn. I think it's the same with dogs. Capri clearly has a smaller bladder than Ajax who has never peed in the house despite attractants like her accident spots and even seeing her do it.

Edited January 6, 2013 by jetcitywoman

[JJNg]

I wasn't reading her stress signals as "oh, I feel bad about having an accident". I was reading them as "ouch, my bladder is full and I can't get outside!"

I agree. Especially since her whining happens mostly before the accidents, and afterward, she calmly gets back on the couch and goes to sleep. A couple times, she did whine and act anxious after she peed, but I think it's because she only partially emptied and probably still had to go. In one of the videos, she comes back and pees again a couple minutes later. A friend's of mine has a grey who is very well housetrained. When he was on predisone, he sometimes had trouble holding it in the mornings, but he would only go a small amount, then hold the rest of it until he got outside. To me, this was very impressive because when you have a full bladder, it's really hard to stop once you start going!

2. When we're home, she knows she can ask to be let out any time.

But how often does she usually ask to be let out? I think Giselle's point was that if she's routinely going 8-10 hours before asking to go out when you're home, but she's needing to go in less than 4-5 hours when she's alone, there may be a component of anxiety making her need to pee more often when she's left. Personally, I still think that if her stress/anxiety signals only happen immediately around the times she needs to pee, and she shows very little to no anxiety any other time she's home alone, it makes more sense that the anxiety is related to a full bladder, and not to separation anxiety.

I think in addition to being willing/able to hold it, there are individual differences in bladder "size". (Or is this what you mean?)

Yes, that's what I mean by the "able" part of it. The "willing" part depends on whether the dog is willing to put up with the discomfort of holding a full bladder while waiting for the opportunity to go out. But obviously the size of the bladder will ultimately determine the limit on how long the dog can physically hold it. So even the willing dog will eventually get to the point where he has an accident if he must wait too long.

[jetcitywoman]

Oh, thanks for the clarification. Let me describe her potty routine as it is now (since it's changed since the beginning of the video series). I'll throw her meals in there too, since it affects doggy elimination habits.

 

6:30 required yard break (required meaning WE require it and she doesn't need to ask)

6:45 breakfast

7:45 morning walk with DH

8:45 required yard break (this is new since the beginning of the videos and seems to have helped) I go out and watch to be sure she goes.

9:00 we both leave for work

11:45 I get home for lunch, and offer a yard break. If they don't take me up on the offer, when I'm done eating, I require a potty break before I leave again. I go out and watch to be sure she goes.

5:30 get home from work. If she has to go really bad she will ask to be let out, even though the next step is:

5:45 evening walk

6:30 dinner

7:00 asks to be let out, usually right in the middle of OUR dinner but this is preferable to accidents, so we reward her for asking.

7:45 asks to be let out again, this is usually just before or after toothbrushing time

9:30 required potty break because it's the last one before bed

 

Note that she generally doesn't ask to be let out until evening time, but this is our work-day routine. On weekends our schedule is less rigid, and she will ask to be let out earlier in the day if she needs to. We still adhere to the morning, mid-day, evening, and before we leave the house potty breaks even on weekends.

[Batmom]

Two questions:

 

Does she pee every time she is taken out or walked?

When (amid that schedule) has she tended to pee in the house?

[jetcitywoman]

Two questions:

 

Does she pee every time she is taken out or walked?

 

Yes. On those required backyard breaks, we'll even go out with her and won't let her come back in until she pees.

 

When (amid that schedule) has she tended to pee in the house?

 

Before we implemented the 8:45 required yard break, she would pee in the house any time between 9:00 and 11:45 (the morning time when we're gone). Now that we've added that one required pee time, she hasn't had any accidents.

[Batmom]

Gotcha.

 

Good job, you!

[JJNg]

Before we implemented the 8:45 required yard break, she would pee in the house any time between 9:00 and 11:45 (the morning time when we're gone). Now that we've added that one required pee time, she hasn't had any accidents.

I believe you said that she wasn't having accidents every day, right? I'm wondering if she was having accidents on the days when she didn't actually pee on the morning walk, and maybe your husband didn't notice? Could also be that her bladder was filling up after that walk. My dogs tend to drink after they eat, and then need to go out about an hour or two later. If Capri continues to be accident-free on this schedule, it sounds like you've got it figured out.

[jetcitywoman]

Thanks everybody! I replied back to the behaviorist and asked to wait on the clomicalm for a few more weeks to let this play out without drugs to see if the accident problem is already solved or not. I also asked if she'd like us to do more video study to further analyze the anxiety issue (or non-issue, I'm not convinced she has SA).

 

The video has helped a tremendous amount! Even if there are no behavior problems, I found it fun to share those special moments with people - like when Capri tried to play me. You can tell people at meet and greets all day long how wonderful these dogs are, but I've found that they're on their best behavior in public, so you don't get to see their personalities as much. It seems like it's only when they're home when they show how clever or clownish they are. I still want to get a video of Ajax losing his nut before a car ride, put some caliope music over it and publish it for everyone's amusement. He's a 3-month-old puppy in an 80-pound body.