Anything Out There Besides Ppa And Des?

[duncan41]

Well, we're still without a dx, but it's looking more and more like just plain old incontinence for my Suze. This is not just dripping - we have to take her out every 90 minutes or she has a release. (Reminder of my previous posts: twice yearly incontinence now constant since Aug 13, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, low, low normal thyroid, high TSH, 62% for Von Willebrands, lethargic, devoid of personality, hot all the time occasional bouts of shallow panting. Taking Benazepril for HBP and .4 mg Soloxine. All CBC and Super Chem Panel results normal. Negative for all TBDs per PCR testing.) Appetite is better than good, poops are fine, no excessive water intake.

 

If the VW goes up to 70%, Dr. L will do the cystocentesis to check for everything under the sun and culture. That's the last test to be done more to eliminate possibilities rather than point to one, before deciding whether or not to treat further.

 

Since PPA is off the table due to the HBP and DES wouldn't be the first choice for a VW dog, is there anything else out there to treat incontinence? Any other estrogens? Haven't tried acupuncture or chiro yet, but that's on the list.

 

To be clear, I will gladly take the incontinence if her personality would return. I miss my dog. Thanks for your help.

Edited December 6, 2011 by duncan41

[Batmom]

My Zema had some leakage episodes. Different pattern than classic incontinence, but still. She too had high BP so couldn't have PPA, wasn't willing to give her DES either. Tried everything under the sun -- filtered water, cranberry, extra course of antibiotics after a couple clean cultures ...... Then I pretended she had a food allergy and put her on essentially an allergy elimination diet -- one protein and @ nothing else (no added salt, no supplements, etc.).

 

Bingo. Problem was noticeably better in @ 24 hours and G.O.N.E. within 5 days.

 

I tried for awhile to figure out what she was sensitive to, by slooooooowwwwwwwwwly adding things to her diet. Always resulted in return of symptoms. So I gave up and fed her what worked. She was happy, glossy, and healthy for the next couple years, until a spinal tumor suddenly stole her away.

[tbhounds]

I was going to suggest a food change too. Doesn't sound like ppa or des is the answer- she will still be urgent. A dog should be able to go longer than 90 minutes without having to void the bladder.

One thing I do want to point out- I wouldn't hesitate to use the des if it comes to this- I understand the side potential side effects sound scary but, are extremely rare. I wouldn't hesitate to use it to improve a quality of life. I had one of mine on des after a horrible reaction to ppa- she did really well until cancer took her (unrelated to des administration).

[greyhead]

Linda, first of all, I'm so sorry you and Zema are going through this!

 

I went back to your most recent Zema thread to refresh my memory. I keep coming back to the problem of being hot, among other things. (Mind you, I know nothing of VW. If I weren't going through my own GH drama today, I'd research it before replying.) So let me just ask a question for my own edification. IIRC, you had two tick panels run, all negative. But then you had PCR's done too? So that suggests to me that there was something positive in a preliminary, Protatek-type tick panel. Is that correct?

 

Please feel free to ignore this question if you don't have the mental bandwidth to answer it right now. I know it's not the focus of your thinking. (It makes me think, though, because Shane was low-positive and treated for Babesia, and that took care of the too-hot/panting problem among other things. And we do think he has some kidney damage that may have been TBD related, though there's no really strong evidence of kidney damage.)

 

Shane, our urinary-leakage/nebulous-kidney-problem hypothyroid GH, is seeing an internist tomorrow at 9 a.m. If I learn anything that might interest you, I'll let you know. I'll specifically ask about the alternative meds you're looking for. From what Jennifer posted, there's one out there, just not yet available; so I'll ask what one does to get ahold of such a thing. Spencer saw this internist a few years ago, and she's very nice as well as knowledgeable, so she'll answer that question if she can.

Edited December 5, 2011 by greyhead

[greyhoundgang]

I agree about food change. I'd go to raw. At least to try it and see if it helps. Once you have an answer on that, you can tweak. I also like holistic vets to help with these kind of issues. They look at the whole picture.

 

If it was just incontinence, I've had good success with this herbal formula from Azmira.

Inexpensive, high quality.

 

Azmira Kidni Kare from Greyhound Gang.

[duncan41]

Jey - I have been following your suggested limited ingredient diet - no change.

 

Tracy - I have reason to believe that Suze is one of those dogs who may have exaggerated reactions to medications. I have read the standard available information about DES and understand the dosing and the history of the medication. If I can find it, I will post the photo of the abdominal bruising as a result of a simple x-ray. At this point I am not sure I could take the gamble with a med that can affect bone marrow of a VW dog, unless her percentage gets up to a minimum of 70%.

 

Mary, Suze was tested for TBDs during her acute renal failure in '09 using the standard antibody test. The PCR provides identification of TBDs by DNA. All testing to date has been negative.

 

Claudia - I did try Kidni Kare and Yucca Intensive in February. They did not seem to affect the leaking pattern, intensity nor duration. There is a holistic VET listed on the website (thank you) about 15 minutes from home. As soon as the repeat bloodwork results come in next week to determine if we can go ahead with the cystocentesis (Dr. L wants the VW range at 70%), and nothing is amiss with the cysto/culture, I will be contacting the holistic Vet.

 

The raw diet is on the list. Dr. L is totally against raw diets (is it safe to say that most Vet are?), so I really don't want to cross that bridge while we are still in the diagnostic phase. He's not on board with Greyhound idiosyncracies either, so I have had to strong arm him on a couple of things, but nothing of any real consequence. I do think the raw diet would push him over the edge. The guy saved Suze's life in Feb '09, so I do owe him that. Once he discharges us, I will try raw.

 

Please keep the suggestions coming! I appreciate every one of them. I will go and try to find that photo of Suze's bruising to post.

[Batmom]

Did she ever have an abdominal ultrasound to explore the area around her bladder? That's just about the only other thing I can think of .

[Batmom]

P.S. Meds like benazepril and thyroid supplementation can make for more frequent urination, especially in the beginning. So if the problem has gotten worse since starting those meds, you'll want to keep track over @ 3-6 weeks as to whether the effect is diminishing, staying the same, getting worse ... and whether they're having the other *beneficial* effects you want.

 

Can't remember if already mentioned or not -- at one point my vet wondered if Zema might have idiopathic cystitis, such as occurs in cats, who are sometimes treated with low-dose amitryptiline (an antidepressant).

[duncan41]

Did she ever have an abdominal ultrasound to explore the area around her bladder? That's just about the only other thing I can think of .

 

Yes, that was done during the first visit to Dr. L. He said, "Everything looks normal for a dog her age."

[duncan41]

P.S. Meds like benazepril and thyroid supplementation can make for more frequent urination, especially in the beginning. So if the problem has gotten worse since starting those meds, you'll want to keep track over @ 3-6 weeks as to whether the effect is diminishing, staying the same, getting worse ... and whether they're having the other *beneficial* effects you want.

 

Can't remember if already mentioned or not -- at one point my vet wondered if Zema might have idiopathic cystitis, such as occurs in cats, who are sometimes treated with low-dose amitryptiline (an antidepressant).

 

So far there has been no noticeable changes in any of her symptoms, other than the shallow infrequent panting that appeared soon after starting her on the Benazepril.

 

I will make a note to put idiopathic cystitis on the table for discussion after the cycto results are in.

[duncan41]

The photo on the left is the bruising post xray.

 

The photo on the right was taken within 24 hours of the cystocentesis in August '09.

Edited December 6, 2011 by duncan41

[Batmom]

Have you considered sending results and symptom description to OSU's consultation service? They might have some bright ideas. I think the contact info is in the Osteo thread.

[tbhounds]

Think I mentioned this before?? Your hound would benefit from running a test via TEG (thrombelastograph)-- it would measure the strength of the clot. OSU has one- wonder if you could overnight a blood sample to them??

Von Willys is so rare in Ghs- makes me wonder if something else is going on?? When your vet draws blood for a sample does the blood clot quickly in the tube (clot tube or aka tiger top)-- that's the cheapest test available.

Also- thought further on the urinary incontinence- have you tried corn silk??

[duncan41]

OSU: Already planned on sending all of her records to them, which I will have next week.

 

Tracy - I will ask about TEG. I suspect that there is something weird going on, because the first draw resulted in a "could not complete the test due to damaged cells". The second sample was spun before it was frozen.

 

Haven't tried corn silk. Can anyone provide the best source and method to administer?

[GeorgeofNE]

Have you considered sending results and symptom description to OSU's consultation service? They might have some bright ideas. I think the contact info is in the Osteo thread.

 

They certainly didn't have any for me with George.

 

In fact, they surmised, after viewing all of his test results and such that it was a behavioral issue...which of course it wasn't (isn't? We're over 20 weeks accident free at this point!).

[carronstar]

No experience at all with this issue, just prayers and good thoughts for your pup.

 

Looking back now, after yesterday and today, I realize that Aquitaine started the occasional unexplained night indoor pee in the last few months and I have to wonder if that had anything to do with the mass. Please know I am not trying to scare you!