Hound's Behavior With New (Nuts!) Cat

[PrairieProf]

Hi folks--

 

So many of you saw the pictures of one of my new cats, Dublin, who is insanely friendly, utterly in love with Beth, and has zero sense that other creatures might have requirements for personal space ... he is a manic snuggler.

 

Beth has been really, really good with him overall (and with my other new cat C.J., who has adjusted a little more slowly but is also getting friendly -- and dashes at full speed right past Beth lying on her dog bed!).

 

But Dublin often really pushes the limits -- he wants to curl up right in her tuck or against her belly, or lie on top of her legs or on her head (!), or he walks directly on top of her to get from one side of the bed or another. Frequently Beth gives some low complaining-sounding growls when he is that close, especially if she was asleep. Is the cat smart enough to back off then? Er, no, not really! And a few times Beth has given a pretty loud woof at him and swung her head up in that "get off me!" way. I think Beth is totally entitled to express displeasure and set some boundaries ... but I am scared that since the cat doesn't seem to get the message it could escalate to a bite. What do you all think? Beth has never had ANY space or sleep issues with me ever, and virtually none with other greyhounds she's stayed with, and I've almost never even heard her growl before, so I really don't know how to read this or how worried to be.

 

Fortunately Beth is crated when I'm out so nothing can happen to the cats then, but I can't police them 100% of the time when I'm at home, especially at night.

 

My series of pics of Dublin the nutcase: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/277635-definitely-a-cat-safe-dog/

 

Dublin pushing the limits (you see Beth is being so good, but I detect a trace of stinkeye):

 

C.J. getting friendly (this morning he lay down right by Beth's head and reached his paw towards her, then batted and hissed when she raised her head to look at him -- silly kitty!):

 

 

(P.S. yes I know he's fat! He came that way! He's losing weight now -- I'm actually a bit concerned at how much less he eats than Dublin.)

Edited October 13, 2011 by PrairieProf

[philospher77]

Have you tried distracting Dublin when he gets too pushy? Truly, cats CAN be trained, and they train best the same way you train greyhounds: by making what YOU want them to do more fun than what THEY want to do. So, if you can see that Beth is reaching her limit, will a chase-toy get Dublin away? If not, you may need to think about physically removing the cat and taking him somewhere else where he can be confined away from Beth. Seriously, think about it like he was a dog... you wouldn't expect Beth to put up with a pushy dog, so don't make her have to endure the cat. Hopefully, as he settles in some more, he will learn his boundaries and you won't have to deal with this as much.

 

Oh, and just as an FYI, that sounds like very dominant cat behavior, so you have probably got a new alpha in your house.

[PrairieProf]

Well, Dublin only does it once in a while. So far I've just moved him a bit away. But sometimes I'm asleep!

 

Not sure I believe in dominance theory especially cross-species, but it's interesting. Dublin seems more frantic for affection than pushy to me -- he was a rescued adult stray in bad shape. And Beth, FWIW, comes across as pretty alpha with other dogs -- I've virtually never seen her engage in any kind of submissive behavior.

[GreytNut]

This is why the cats sleep in the bedroom and the dogs sleep in the living room.

 

Evita has no sense of self-preservation and will box the dogs' ears while they sleep. Tiny almost killed her for it once, and Riley snaps at her if she disturbs him while he is on his bed. She doesn't get it and she probably never will. To add to her confusion, Raven is fine with snuggly kitties so she gets mixed messages. It's safer just to separate them when I can't immediately supervise.

[PrairieProf]

Uh-oh, that doesn't sound good. I have been hoping everybody would just adjust (the cats have been here less than two weeks). Beth already sleeps on my bed -- most of the night, anyway -- and I'd never kick her out. I'd have to shut the cats in the guest bedroom to guarantee separation overnight -- and Beth always liked to go into the bedroom for the first part of the night (it is baby-gated for the cats at present). I loooove cuddling with cats in bed, though. So far at least they've only come on the bed in the early morning hours.

[TheFullHouse]

That growl followed by a snap is Beth's way of telling the cat she's had enough and to back off. I'd immediately make the cat move because if it pushes too far she may actually bite him or worse. I always pay immediate attention to any growl snap or growl raising of the head off the bed behavior. It usually means some body has pushed the limits of some body else in the house.

[GreytNut]

Your cats may be smarter than Evita. Squeak is hogging all of the feline brain cells. She leaves the dogs alone. Evita is a lost cause. But if there's any doubt, better safe than sorry.

 

I have the dogs in the living room because they are trustworthy unsupervised, and because elderly Raven frequently needs to use the dog door. The cats cannot be left to roam the house or it will be in shreds by morning. They yowl when they are locked out of the bedroom. Riley also has some sleep aggression issues which make sleeping in close quarters with him a bad idea. Thus the arrangement.

[PrairieProf]

Giving peace a chance ....

 

 

Cats were on the bed, Beth hopped up and lay down too, Dublin did NOT try to become one with her, everybody was calm and happy. Then I had to come upstairs and I lured Beth off the bed with a treat to come up with me where I can keep an eye on her.

[JJNg]

And a few times Beth has given a pretty loud woof at him and swung her head up in that "get off me!" way.

How does Dublin react to these stronger complaints from Beth?

 

My cats don't snuggle with the dogs, but for some reason both of them occasionally become obsessed with Willow's feet. They will intensely sniff, then try to rub and/or lay on her paws while Willow is lying down. She will often bare her teeth or give a soft growl, without even lifting her head. If they get too pushy, she'll give that woof and swing her head toward them, and they run. Here's a previous post where I posted some photos. I just let them work it out as I know Willow well enough to know that she won't hurt the cats, and my cats also respect her warnings and know when to back off. If Dublin doesn't, then you'll need to be the one to step in and make him leave Beth alone when she's had enough.

[PrairieProf]

I think I'm still learning how Dublin will respond ... once I think he jumped back when she gave the head swing/woof, but my memory is blurry and she's only woofed a couple of times so far (I've intervened at growl stage mostly). I also don't think Beth would be likely to hurt him, but I've never seen her in this situation so I don't know for sure. She's a pretty bad play-biter with me but she's never done an uninhibited bite to me or another dog in the three years I've had her. I'll keep an eye on it for sure, thanks for the input and pics.

[kudzu]

Have indeed gone through this with Tasty Kitty. (Are you surprised with a name like that?) It took a three fold approach:

 

1. Yes, I used distraction to some extent. However, since Tasty likes human attention as well distraction to some extent was a reward. Still did it though to protect Tasty from living up to her name when she pushed Venus past her limits.

 

2. Also, I worked to reward Tasty before she pushed too far. Would catch her when she was doing something acceptable like laying near V but not on her or when she managed to walk past V & not twirling around between V's legs. As you can imagine though, active little kitties like Tasty are not the easiest to catch before they slip over the edge & possibly into a dog's maws. So the third part was needed.

 

3. If Tasty started pushing the limits & Venus looked ready to snap I called Venus away & rewarded her for leaving the kitty instead of justifiably rebuking her. THAT actually worked the best because it taught V that it was more rewarding to walk away from annoying creatures even if it meant leaving your own bed. It served as a correction for Tasty because if she pushed too far she lost the canine contact she seemed to crave. And of course it also helped stop V's annoyance from escalating to a potentially dangerous level.

 

What I absolutely tried me darnedest to not do was use aversive corrections or distractions. Those would end up being aversive to the dog & the cat. Venus was already annoyed & I wanted to make kitty contact more pleasant, not less. Good luck. It can take a while for new roommates who speak different languages to feel entirely comfortable with each other. Your crew has made a really great start of it though. Even with a few glitches I'm sure things will work out.

[PrairieProf]

Have indeed gone through this with Tasty Kitty. (Are you surprised with a name like that?) It took a three fold approach:

 

1. Yes, I used distraction to some extent. However, since Tasty likes human attention as well distraction to some extent was a reward. Still did it though to protect Tasty from living up to her name when she pushed Venus past her limits.

 

2. Also, I worked to reward Tasty before she pushed too far. Would catch her when she was doing something acceptable like laying near V but not on her or when she managed to walk past V & not twirling around between V's legs. As you can imagine though, active little kitties like Tasty are not the easiest to catch before they slip over the edge & possibly into a dog's maws. So the third part was needed.

 

3. If Tasty started pushing the limits & Venus looked ready to snap I called Venus away & rewarded her for leaving the kitty instead of justifiably rebuking her. THAT actually worked the best because it taught V that it was more rewarding to walk away from annoying creatures even if it meant leaving your own bed. It served as a correction for Tasty because if she pushed too far she lost the canine contact she seemed to crave. And of course it also helped stop V's annoyance from escalating to a potentially dangerous level.

 

What I absolutely tried me darnedest to not do was use aversive corrections or distractions. Those would end up being aversive to the dog & the cat. Venus was already annoyed & I wanted to make kitty contact more pleasant, not less. Good luck. It can take a while for new roommates who speak different languages to feel entirely comfortable with each other. Your crew has made a really great start of it though. Even with a few glitches I'm sure things will work out.

 

Thanks, really helpful suggestions! I love the idea of distracting Beth; think I'll stash some treats around the house to be close at hand to reward her for moving away from the cat (or just for tolerating him). Tasty, what a hilarious name! What exactly did you use/do to reward the cat?

Edited October 13, 2011 by PrairieProf

[kudzu]

Thanks, really helpful suggestions! I love the idea of distracting Beth; think I'll stash some treats around the house to be close at hand to reward her for moving away from the cat (or just for tolerating him). Tasty, what a hilarious name! What exactly did you use/do to reward the cat?

Food rewards for Tasty were very easy in the beginning. She was ravenous & would eat anything including Swheat, a wheat based kitty litter. (So much for being more environmentally friendly.) She was even caught stalking my goat once early on when she escaped the house. Those days are over & she has a normal cat appetite now. However, bits of boiled or grilled chicken, tiny tidbits of steak, etc. will all still work. Recently I have discovered that both our cats consider Red Barn Lamb & Rice rolled dog food to be high value. This is perfect since it can be both a cat & a dog treat. Though it is also a pain since I now have cats running into the middle of dog training sessions. Poor Venus almost ended up retrieving Tasty once instead of the appropriate object.

[GeorgeofNE]

Sounds like George--and I think you can guess that Mister Bigglesworth is unphased by any sort of growl, snap, etc. George has NEVER really tried to bite the cat. If he's REALLY annoyed, he'll get up and move.

 

I try not to let it get past growling. I pick Mister B. up and move him. Usually 5 or 6 times...

 

When George is extra grumpy (which hasn't happened since we discovered Gabapentin!) I sometimes have to close Mister B. in the bedroom for a while. Every hound deserves an occasional cat-free day I think!

 

Da Ebil Won has earned his nickname!

[Guest BrianRke]

I would be worried and watch them very closely.

[Guest LindsaySF]

It depends on the cat. Some (most?) cats are smart and realize that a growl or snap from the dog means business. And honestly, some cats are quite dumb. I can say this because I own one of the dumb ones. He has NO sense of anything. When the dogs growl, etc, he just sits there. Sometimes he'll start purring. For his (cat's) safety, I need to remove him from the situation. If I'm not there to supervise, dogs and cats are separated, totally. If I'm there, I'll just watch them. If dumb-cat gets too close to one of my space aggressive hounds, I'll pop a muzzle on the hound, just in case.

 

I would be very careful and make sure Beth doesn't bite one of the cats. Even a nip in warning could cause bad damage. If you are asleep and they are all sharing the bed, I would muzzle Beth. Trust me, you do NOT want to wake up to your cat in Beth's mouth. (Long story, cat was fine, I learned a valuable lesson about sleep/space aggression). Good luck!

 

 

 

 

[PrairieProf]

I'm keeping an eye on it ... Beth seems to be getting snappier on my bed, but the cats do seem to be learning and giving her a wider berth. I'm thinking about the muzzle ... so far the cats only come up in the early morning.

[PrairieProf]

I thought I'd post an update .... the cats seem to have learned not to walk on top of Beth and to give her more space, and I give her treats as positive reinforcement when the cats are very close. Haven't heard any growling or snaps at all in the past week or so. A couple of times Dublin's been cuddled pretty close to her and she's seemed fine. So I think we're on our way to a peaceable household. I did catch Dublin trying to eat canned food out of Beth's bowl last night, but Beth doesn't seem upset by that -- she was just standing there looking a little perplexed!

Edited October 27, 2011 by PrairieProf

[Batmom]

Good girl, Beth!

[sweetdogs]

Oh that's good news! So glad everyone's figured out the rules. Those cats are just so beautiful & loving (if pesty, but that IS a cat's major job ). You've done a wonderful thing, giving them a greyt home & protecting Beth from love-overload.