Big D Off And On For Weeks

[Guest JsMom]

A couple of months ago, we switched our dog food from Kirkland Chicken & Rice to Pelican Bay Pure & Simple Grain Free Salmon Meal. We have had our dog (9) on Kirkland for 6 years, and he's generally done well on it, but he gets fussy, especially in the summertime, and I was trying to find a kibble that he'd just EAT without me having to pour on all kinds of goodies that would eventually not be "good enough," IYKWIM.

 

He did well on the Pelican Bay for the first bag, so I bought a second one. At some point, his stomach didn't seem like it was doing so well, but I assumed it was the extreme heat of summer. With add-ons, he was eating it with no problem.

 

Then a few weeks ago, things seemed to go downhill in the poop department. He was still eating, but sometimes the poop was mushy and other times it was completely liquid. But he never strayed from his regular routine, and didn't need to go out in between walks in the morning and evening.

 

Last night, he had horrible poop on the evening walk and then got up around midnight to go out. Then 5 more times between then and 630 am, when I walked him and he pooped a little more liquid. I decided to take him off his for for a day or two and just gave him a little plain oatmeal for breakfast. He ate it with no problem. Now at 430 (1 hour before normal dinner and 3 before normal walk time) he was wanting to go out, but wouldn't go in the yard. I took him for a short walk, and by the time we got out our side door and to the front of the house, he threw up white, foamy stuff. I couldn't tell if it was mucusy or not, but the second round of it was hard for him to choke out and get out of his mouth.

 

Then we went on our (very short) walk, and he pooped again. This time it looked a bit more solid but still nowhere near right. But closer to what it usually looks like when he's had a bad stomach and he's eaten oatmeal. I took a very close look b/c he seemed to be straining, and sure enough there were two little drops of bright red blood on top.

 

I know that blood in the stool is NOT a good thing. I also know that usually when he pukes due to an empty stomach/heat issues, it's yellow, not white. I don't want to be an alarmist, so I wanted to get more experienced opinions here first. We cannot afford a frivolous visit to the ER on the weekend, but will do it if necessary. I just know that lots of times I've seen (or read here) symptoms that would freak me right out and they end up being not as big a deal as I thought. I'm hoping that's the case here.... Anyone?

[TheFullHouse]

Is he drinking? If not and he continues to vomit and have loose stools get him to the vet. He can dehydrate very quickly and get quite ill. The blood can be from irritated bowels from all the big D. This could have been coming on for quite a while, it may be what put him off his food when you switched.

[Guest JsMom]

He was drinking quite a bit until today. Today, not so much, but he doesn't normally drink very much anyway. I am keeping an eye on the water bowl, though to make sure it goes down at least a little.

[Guest IHeartDogs]

I've been through heck with my foster the past three months with very soft stool/diarrhea. Ran ever test possible, even switched foods. The diarrhea got really bloody so she went in again for tests.

Turns out she had hookworms that were dormant and showed up negative on the fecal in late May, but then rechecked it 6 weeks later when things got really bad; full of hookworms.

 

She had very little vomiting with her diarrhea though. She did throw up once with white mucusy stuff too...

 

So it might be worms.

Or it might be getting old or a bad bag of food.

Try the bland rice and chicken or rice and lean ground beef for a few days. Add some broth to water to keep him hydrated and get him to the vet on Monday. It doesn't seem like an Evet case to me as long as he stays hydrated.

Good luck, hope he feels better soon!

[Guest JsMom]

Yuck. I did think hookworm, since he had it when he came home to us, but I'm wondering how we would even be able to get a sample in for testing at this point? There is absolutely NOTHING to pick up/scoop and the thought of trying to hold a cup behind him to catch the stream makes me want to puke. Can an "old" (like from last night) sample be used? (It's dried into a little cow patty....)

[Guest IHeartDogs]

Yuck. I did think hookworm, since he had it when he came home to us, but I'm wondering how we would even be able to get a sample in for testing at this point? There is absolutely NOTHING to pick up/scoop and the thought of trying to hold a cup behind him to catch the stream makes me want to puke. Can an "old" (like from last night) sample be used? (It's dried into a little cow patty....)

 

No old samples. Try to get it as fresh as possible, or you can collect it and put it in the fridge for a few hours(yuck, i know) but not the freezer.

They only need a thimble size sample to run the test. Try to collect the stuff not touching ground/grass.

 

If the results come back negative, it might be safer to deworm just in case...

[greyhead]

And if you don't find hookworm, look for intestinal infection with a poop culture. A poop culture is like a urine culture, but it's different from a fecal test for worms. If it smells really vile and gets really yellow, those are also clues to infection. We've been through all of this at our house, and ended up with IBD. So don't mess around, like we did, with changing foods, adding beet pulp, or trying sweet potato unless you've ruled out these medical problems. Wishing you the best.

[Hubcitypam]

Not to hijack, but can someone explain the difference between chronic colitis and IBD to me?

 

 

[Guest JsMom]

No worries on the hijack, I'd like to know, too!

Besides, I'd rather the thread by hijacked by curiosity than by panicked calls for a trip to the e-vet!

 

Fortunately, the color seems about right/normal for him, maybe a little on the greenish side. He is drinking, and ate some plain rice last night. Wouldn't touch the oatmeal, but licked some yogurt off a spoon (didn't want to give too much).

 

I just want to find him food he can/wants to eat. There doesn't seem to be such a thing! (But that'll be a thread in the other forum, once we get this figured out...)

 

He made it til 4am this morning before needing to go out. Then he wandered around a lot, but only peed. His stomach is making all those wonderful "hungry" noises, but he refused a training treat.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Hope your boy is starting to feel better. I'd definitely take him to your regular vet asap and get some stool tests done, it does sound like something's going on that needs further investigation. And if he's had liquid D for a while he could be low in electrolytes which can also cause problems such as cramps etc (we went through this with Kelly last year). It sounds as if his GI tract is really irritated so I would keep him off 'regular' dog food and treats completely for now, and feed bland white meat (fish or chicken) and rice in small amounts while you wait to get him checked out.

 

As for the colitis/IBD question... If I recall correctly, IBD is the name given to any condition/problem that causes chronic inflammation of the entire GI tract, whereas colitis is inflammation of the large bowel (i.e. the colon) only - but Kelly gets colitis when his IBD flares, so really they can be one and the same. The end result certainly is!

 

Hope that helps - let us know how you get on.

[Guest zoolaine]

When Sunny has sick and having bad diarrhea I had to use one of the big Costco cottage cheese containers to catch his poo since it was impossible to pick up. It's big enough that you can set it down under them without getting poo on your hand. Then just pop the lid on it. awww the things we do out of love for our dogs

[MaryJane]

E-vet.

 

Your dog has been having severe diarrhea and now he is vomiting. Usually diarrhea alone can wait about 3 days but with vomiting included you should be at the vet ASAP.

[Guest JsMom]

Another update (both for all the experts here and for me to keep track of what's going on w/ him):

 

Took him for his usual walk around 645 am. He didn't want to wait that long; zooming and stuffie tossing ensued while I s...l...o...w...l...y (in his eyes) got my shoes on. He also did a bunch of ridiculous zooming last night after our walk, which is very uncharacteristic of him when it's hot out. I'm hoping this means whatever was in his system is now out.

 

He refused to eat the rice I gave him this morning, but he seems to be feeling okay, and has had some water and some ice cubes. The refusal of food isn't really worrisome in terms of his usual pickiness and personality, but he also didn't poop at all on the morning walk and empty stomach usually makes him vomit, especially when it's hot out. So if he gets sick again, I won't know if it's empty stomach/heat sick or associated with whatever condition is going on with him.

 

I will be calling the vet in the morning regardless, unless by some miracle he decides to eat and have a normal poop tonight, which is highly unlikely....

 

Thanks for talking me down!

 

(ETA: MaryJane, thanks for the e-vet rec. It's a good reminder that one or the other for a day or so is okay, but both together can be cause for alarm. I hope this isn't the case for us; I think if he weren't acting normal or vomited more than just the one time I would definitely have gone to the e-vet. Zoolane, thanks for the tip! I'm gagging at the thought, but I will do it if I have to!)

Edited August 7, 2011 by JsMom

[greyhead]

Zoolaine's tip is a really good one, and it's what I did with my dog. As long as it's good and clean to start with, the vet and lab won't be wondering if the germs they're seeing on the poop culture came from the dog or came from the ground, etc. Might as well do it right the first time and not have to repeat it, right?

 

I don't mean to panic you, not at all. But I feel obliged to say that Spencer behaved normally in terms of eating, walking, etc. for a long, long time while he was in fact infected with something that became a big, serious deal. So while I'm glad your dog isn't prostrate, you'll need to be uncomfortable enough to push the vet to find the answer. Oh, and we had some green tinge too, now that I'm remembering, and it didn't mean anything good. (I can't recall explicitly, but I think the green meant that the gall bladder wasn't happy with the whole situation.)

 

Hope you get good help tomorrow! Keep us posted. Meanwhile, lots of good thoughts coming your way.

[Guest JsMom]

Evening update: He ate his "breakfast" of plain rice around lunchtime and asked for more. He ate a total of probably 2 cups then. Dinner rolled around and he was ready. Ate 2 more cups of rice, and the evening walk was better than I hoped for. Poop was opposite in every way to what was going on the other day. It was more orange-ish (which it usually is when he's been fasting) and definitely more solid. Very far from normal, but way better than the first-poop-after-fasting most times he's been sick.

 

So after seriously considering parasites or just really rotten tummy upset (he'd eaten a dead bird at some point -- he doesn't usually have a problem with that but I wondered if it was a diseased one he'd gotten to), I'm guessing food. I'm not going to put him back on any food yet, just bland diet for the next few days (have to get to the store tomorrow for some chicken) and make sure it's going to get better. If it doesn't continue to improve (or worsens again in any way) or doesn't go away completely by the end of the week, I'll be calling the vet. (I may still call to let them know what's going on, but if we can avoid a visit I'd like to. At this point, I wouldn't mind screening the poop just to make sure, so I'm waffling.)

 

Hoping for an even better day tomorrow!

[Guest JsMom]

Update: Awaiting results from the poop sample. Meanwhile, things have firmed up significantly. Still not "normal," but it never is til he gets back on kibble.

[Guest JsMom]

Just heard from the vet: Everything's normal.

Soooo.... I'm going to give him a couple more days on the bland diet to help things along, then go back to kibble. I'm NOT going back to the "new" food as I'm not so sure that's not the cause of all this. Do I go back to the "old" food and just live with doctoring it up, or try to find something new that will work for him?

[greyhead]

What germs or parasites did they test the poop for? I ask because our vet tested twice for worms only. Finally I asked for a culture to look for germs instead and was told that the lab only tests for three germs at a time, usually including E. coli and salmonella. They never test for the germ he actually had unless you order it. Fortunately, I did order that one. So when the vet says "everything's normal," I'd wonder what "everything" consisted of.

 

I always advise people not to jump around among lots of different protein types in these situations. That's because if there's an inflammation in the gut, as in IBD, the dog will develop that inflammatory response fairly quicklly to each new protein you introduce and then won't be able to eat them ever again. (That's why our IBD dog can only eat venison now, which is expensive!) So try not to run through chicken, beef, bison, rabbit, duck, salmon, and all the reasonable things. You could maybe just switch brands and see if that helps. Truly, though, I don't know what to tell you. All I can do is share what happened to us and the long-term implications of it. So hoping things work out for you soon!

[greytpups]

A couple of months ago, we switched our dog food from Kirkland Chicken & Rice to Pelican Bay Pure & Simple Grain Free Salmon Meal. We have had our dog (9) on Kirkland for 6 years, and he's generally done well on it, but he gets fussy, especially in the summertime, and I was trying to find a kibble that he'd just EAT without me having to pour on all kinds of goodies that would eventually not be "good enough," IYKWIM.

 

He did well on the Pelican Bay for the first bag, so I bought a second one. At some point, his stomach didn't seem like it was doing so well, but I assumed it was the extreme heat of summer. With add-ons, he was eating it with no problem.

 

Then a few weeks ago, things seemed to go downhill in the poop department. He was still eating, but sometimes the poop was mushy and other times it was completely liquid. But he never strayed from his regular routine, and didn't need to go out in between walks in the morning and evening.

 

Last night, he had horrible poop on the evening walk and then got up around midnight to go out. Then 5 more times between then and 630 am, when I walked him and he pooped a little more liquid. I decided to take him off his for for a day or two and just gave him a little plain oatmeal for breakfast. He ate it with no problem. Now at 430 (1 hour before normal dinner and 3 before normal walk time) he was wanting to go out, but wouldn't go in the yard. I took him for a short walk, and by the time we got out our side door and to the front of the house, he threw up white, foamy stuff. I couldn't tell if it was mucusy or not, but the second round of it was hard for him to choke out and get out of his mouth.

 

Then we went on our (very short) walk, and he pooped again. This time it looked a bit more solid but still nowhere near right. But closer to what it usually looks like when he's had a bad stomach and he's eaten oatmeal. I took a very close look b/c he seemed to be straining, and sure enough there were two little drops of bright red blood on top.

 

I know that blood in the stool is NOT a good thing. I also know that usually when he pukes due to an empty stomach/heat issues, it's yellow, not white. I don't want to be an alarmist, so I wanted to get more experienced opinions here first. We cannot afford a frivolous visit to the ER on the weekend, but will do it if necessary. I just know that lots of times I've seen (or read here) symptoms that would freak me right out and they end up being not as big a deal as I thought. I'm hoping that's the case here.... Anyone?

 

 

GHWP Newsletter This was from another thread but it might be an interesting read for you.

[Guest JsMom]

I have the list on my receipt from them, but it's somewhere in DH's pile right now....

 

I thought I was doing the right thing by giving him beef in his bland diet (trying to give him stuff that's NOT in his regular food since that may be the problem!). His "old" food is chicken & rice, the "new and never going back to it" food is salmon meal. He never did well on lamb or duck before, but that was ages ago. Since he's doing so well on the beef, should I look for one that's beef to start him out on, or just go back to his old chicken and rice that I know will be okay for him for the most part? (He has gotten sick on it before, but I don't think it was the food causing it, like I suspect with the salmon food....) I just don't want to make things worse!

[greyhead]

I have the list on my receipt from them, but it's somewhere in DH's pile right now....

 

I thought I was doing the right thing by giving him beef in his bland diet (trying to give him stuff that's NOT in his regular food since that may be the problem!). His "old" food is chicken & rice, the "new and never going back to it" food is salmon meal. He never did well on lamb or duck before, but that was ages ago. Since he's doing so well on the beef, should I look for one that's beef to start him out on, or just go back to his old chicken and rice that I know will be okay for him for the most part? (He has gotten sick on it before, but I don't think it was the food causing it, like I suspect with the salmon food....) I just don't want to make things worse!

 

If he's doing well on the beef now, I would stay with that! Ask me again if that changes. I wouldn't go back to the chicken just yet or anytime soon. You want him to keep doing well as long as you can, keeping everything constant. If he starts not doing well on the beef too, you probably need more testing to rule out IBD before you keep spoiling more protein sources. (Hope I'm being clear enough. I'm kind of going in too many directions at once this afternoon.) Feel free to PM or email me anytime you want. In any case, I'll keep checking in here. The only thing is I have a new foster arriving Saturday afternoon and may not be back here as religiously as usual.

[Batmom]

I'd go back to the Kirkland. It may be that once he's feeling better, he'll happily eat it. If he doesn't, you could look for something else, but I'd look for similar main ingredients (meats, fat type), protein %, fat % rather than looking for a specific meat.

 

Most of the time, digestive intolerance to commercial foods has nothing to do with which type of meat is in the food. Not saying that sensitivities to a particular meat don't happen -- they do! -- but not as common as just "Food X doesn't agree with dog Y."

[Walliered]

I think we had the same thing and it turned out to be IBD. Huck is on Science Diet I/D with very good results. He gets absolutely nothing else. I really want to change him from that food because of the price and I do not think it is a very good food, but am rather afraid to do it. He and Da Vid have been checked for worms many, many times and it is always negative..I wormed them both anyway.

[Guest JsMom]

Greytpup, thanks for the link. It was very helpful.

 

My vet sells the Hills Science Diet line and I've been using some of it as treats (for teeth cleaning). One or two seems fine, but more gives him a bad stomach. I'm dreading having the "which dog food/what to look for" conversation with the vet b/c I know they'll recommend Hills.

 

I just hate that all the vets seem to want to recommend food that is overpriced esp. for the ratings they get (like Hills isn't very highly rated, but Kirkland is). I'd like to keep him on a food that I can afford, and feel good about giving him, AND that agrees with him. Is that really too much ask?

[greyhead]

We were lucky, I think. Our vet had her own IBD dog at the time ours was diagnosed. All the rx foods have a lot of corn, and/or chicken, and/or rice, none of which our dog could have anymore. She understood that I didn't want to trust that "hydrolyzed" protein was going to be okay. (I've had bad experience with Hill's food for cats, long ago, and I will never forget it.) Anyhow, our dog's requirements were: 1) novel protein, 2) no rice or other grains, 3) very simple ingredients -- not lots of cranberries, spinach, etc. We found what we needed in the Natural Balance Limited Ingredients formulas. Several are made with sweet potato. While they aren't cheap, they're cheaper than the rx foods. I don't find it to be perfect, but we also feed raw for 50% of his food, so it works out. (By "not perfect" for us I mean too much fiber, not as completely digested as we'd prefer.)

 

I say all this to illustrate that you do have choices outside the prescription foods, even if your vet isn't familiar with them. Lots of people in the Food or Health & Medical forums here on GT can help point you to them. But hopefully you'll observe what your dog can and can't handle and can research for things to fit the bill.