Kidney/diabetes?

[Guest Timo]

Hello everyone. I just joined the forum, but I have lurked for awhile now. I was hoping to gain some insight from all of you regarding our current issue. We adopted our greyhound, Timo, a little over a year ago. He does seem to have some issues... We have been to vet's about 10 times so far for various reasons. He's draining my bank account! Anyway, we plan on taking aa urine sample in Monday morning, but wanted to see if anyone here has any other suggestions.

 

He doesn't seem to be able to hold his pee once he drinks water. That's always been the case. We now know the signs he gives us that he has to go, and we take him, but when we are not home, he pees in his crate. Poor baby. Anyway, over the last few days, he has been drinking more water, but then he has to go aout 30-45 minutes later. And, it seems like he is peeing clear liquid and more than he actually drank. He is bit OCD and has to lick everything super clean, so we give him a little bit of water at a time and just keep giving little bits until he stops drinking. When we know we won't be home, we restrict his water until we get home later. In the past, he never wanted to drink water during the day, only during dinner time. Over the last few days, he seems to want to drink all the time. Prior to this, he had diarrhea last week. I was ready to take him to the vet, but then it subsided. After the diarrhea went away was when he started drinking more water.

 

Also, as a little background, he had an anal gland infection for awhile that was resistant to most antibiotics. He was on cipro for weeks. Then we had it cultured because the cipro wasn't working. It turned out that only one oral antibiotic would kill this bacteria, bactrim. We had to put him on the bactrim, but with high caution. The vet said bactrim could have serious side effects, including death. The vet also said that for a greyhound, it wasn't likely. So, we had him on the bactrim for 8 days, and the vet told us to take him off. He started to have some ploppy poops and seemed to be peeing a lot without drinking much water. The anal glands seemed to be cured by then though. It was about a week or so after taking him off the bactrim that the serious diarrhea started. I withheld food for 24 hours, then gave him ground beef and rice (he's allergic to chicken), but it didn't seem to work. But, then all of a sudden, diarrhea stopped, but now the excessive peeing started. *sigh*

 

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Just wanted to see if anyone had insight on the situation. Thanks in advance for your help!

[Guest IrskasMom]

First of all Welcome to GT. I really have no Idea what could cause his excesive drinking and peeing. After all you you had him at the Vet several times and the Vet ( I assume ) would have checked him for UTI. There was a recall on some Food that contained to much Vitamin D that caused some of the Symptoms you discribed. I belief it was one of the Wilderness ( Blue ) Products. But wait until somebody with a lot more Experience chimes in and trust me,there are quiet a few . I hope things get better for you and of course for him to

[tbhounds]

Did you run blood work and was a u/a run?

[Guest sheila]

the only thing I note is that you say you are restricting water. Could be that since he's only allowed a little bit of water water at a time and (it sounds like) no water when you are gone that this is contributing to the OCD about drinking water. I know if I were under this kind of restriction I would probably 'tank up' too whenever I got the chance and then would have to naturally pee more.

Regardless of whatever issues my dogs have been having in the pee area whether it was UTI or incontinence or even behavior, I have never restricted water and would not recommend it.

[Hubcitypam]

When Poodle started drinking too much water they said it was diabetes, kidney failure or Cushings.

 

It ended up being diabetes and until we could get it regulated the vet said NOT to withhold water -- they are flushing themselves for a reason. If you get a u/a and blood tests for the rest Monday hopefully you'll have an answer.

[Guest june]

Someone with more experience chime in here. What came to my mind is tick-borne diseases which can play havoc with a dogs immune system. Anyone else think this should be checked?

june

[Guest Timo]

Thank you everyone for chiming in. We haven't had any tests run since this started a few days ago. Ever since we've had him, he hasn't been able to hold his bladder when it's really full, and he will even go in his crate when that happens. He has also been the kind of dog that produces a lot of pee after drinking a medium amount of water. We will be bringing a urine sample into the vet's first thing Monday morning though, and go from there.

 

He did have his urine checked about six months ago after peeing in the crate, and the vet stated that his pee was about as perfect as it could get. As far as blood work goes, he had a complete panel done last September. At that time, he had to spend two nights in the hospital. It wound up being gastroenteritis, and the vet did complete bloodwork and xrays of his abdomen. They said that his bloodwork was normal. The only thing that was elevated was that he had allergies. So... I guess we'll probably have everything run again this week.

 

As for restricting water, we do keep a small bowl in his crate when we are gone during the day. But, he refuses to drink it! And, even on the weekends when we are home all day, he doesn't normally touch his water until dinnertime. He'll have breakfast, which has water added, and then go for a long walk. After the walk, he won't even touch his water. He'll normally start drinking around 6pm. However, today, he has been drinking non-stop. It's not that I restrict the water so much as it's that I pour a little in at time. But, I pour more immediately after he finishes what's in the bowl. And, I keep pouring until he doesn't want anymore.

 

I actually don't even think he is drinking that much water. I've seen other dogs drink much more! It's that he is drinking more than normal, and it's because it seems like the volume od pee he is producing seems a lot more than his intake. How can his body produce more liquid than he's taking in? That's my number one concern. And, his pee seems really clear, like water. All other dogs that I see who drink more water than he does don't produce the volume of pee that does. They'll drink that much and not have to go for hours. With Timo, he'll produce a gallon of pee in less than an hour. Okay, a gallon is exaggerating, but you know what I mean. ;-)

 

Thanks again for all your input.

[tbhounds]

When you collect the urine make sure it's the first morning urine he produces. The urine should be the most concentrated then. Also, you mentioned that the vet thought he might have allergies from looking at his recent CBC -- it also might be he may have intestinal parasites- you should bring in a fresh fecal sample for stool analysis.

[MaryJane]

You mentioned allergies ... one of my dogs will start peeing "more than normal" when he gets something that he is allergic to. I noticed this years ago and was pleasantly surprised when he went on a restricted diet to determine items he was allergic to and the "excessive peeing" also cleared up when I removed those items from his diet. My dog happens to be sensitive to chicken and noodles - he does fine on home-cooked veggies, rice and beef.

 

As noted in a previous post, I would also bring in a first morning urine specimen to the vet and make sure they note that it is a "first morning".

 

It sounds like he was on a heavy regimen of antibiotics - did you supplement his diet with a bit of yogurt? That would help to replenish the normal bacteria in his gut.

 

As someone mentioned, I would probably not restrict water just in case there is a kidney issue - in that case, the excess water is helping to keep the kidneys flushed. Get some pee pads and put down in the crate and that will help to soak up excess urine until you can get a diagnosis and determine treatment.

 

Good luck

[Guest Timo]

Hmmm. Maybe timo's also allergic to beef! I gave him some beef and rice for his diarrhea the week before - three days. It didn't help the diarrhea at all. Seemed to make it worse. then after that, he started with the water. He is normally on TOTW pacific stream. He does great with it normally. I am pretty sure he's allergic to chicken. We pur him on merrick's before grain chicken when we first got him, and he always had an upset stomach until we switched. he is also allergic to fleas. We have him on advantage now, and that made him so much better, skin-wise. We still use frontline to prevent ticks, bur we don't put it on the same week as the advantage. The vet said that would be okay.

 

And yes, we have him on forti-flora for the antibiotics.

 

Today after his walk, I filled his bowl about 1/4 - 1/3 full of water, and he only drank about half of it. he drank a bunch before the walk though.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I wouldn't restrict water, or only fill the bowl partway, etc. That can cause a psychological/OCD issue with the water and make them drink more. I would fill a large bowl up completely, let him drink as much as he wants. He needs to know the water is always there.

 

If his urine is clear, that's not a great sign. I'm glad you're contacting the vet. If he has a history of allergies, it could be in response to that. I would want the vet to run bloodwork and a urinalysis to rule out another medical issue. Good luck.

[Guest Timo]

So, the U/A came back normal. We made an appointment for a fasting CBC for tomorrow morning.

 

The vet said that for his size, he should be drinking about two liters of water a day. He normally only drinks about 3-4 cups total per day. Now that he is drinking more, I think it's only as much at two liters, which is considered normal. But, the problem is that he produces a huge volume of urine when he drinks the "normal" amount that, and he can't hold it at all. The vet said that it is abnormal for a dog his age (3) and size to have to go 10 times a day drinking the normal amout of water. He said it was okay to withhold water at night and when we are out. So we'll see what happens with the blood test tomorrow. This dog seems to have so many problems, and he's so young.... Allergies, skin issues, sensitive stomach, gastroenteritis (hospitalized on IV), anal glands, etc. Sigh. We've been to the vet more than 10 times in the past year....is this normal for a greyhound?

[Guest Timo]

Blood results came back today. The only thing it really showed was a slightly elevated creatinine of 2.0. The vet said it wasn't a major deal, but it could be early warning signs, so he told us to just him. He thinks that him drinking all at one time is somewhat psychological... possibly a touch of psychogenic polydysia? He suggested to space out the amount of water I give him though out the day, like a cup or two an hour. He says it could make it worse or make it better. But, he said the drinking too much at one time could cause a megulary(sp?) washout. I guess it's a chemical in the kidneys that help concentrate the urine. If it washes out, then it won't be able to concentrate the urine until it builds back up again. He said letting him get a tiny bit dehydrated will build it back up quicker.

 

He also suggested a lower protein diet, for the elevated creatinine. He suggested feeding him a little less of his kibble and adding some frozen veggies in its place. He said to double the amount of veggies compared to the amount I take out. So, I'm going to give him 1/4 cup less of kibble at each feeding and adding 1/2 cup veggies. I'll see if that helps.

 

We still don't know what's wrong with him, but we'll just monitor him for a little while.

 

Thanks for all your input.

[tbhounds]

2.0 creatinine sounds like a normal gh level to me-- what was the BUN? If the BUN was elevated also then, I would be concerned. Also, if your vet is concerned about your pups kidneys I would suggest getting a blood pressure reading. What food are you feeding? A lot of your dogs above mentioned symptoms may be diet related?

Edited June 10, 2011 by tbhounds

[Batmom]

Really would not withhold water. If the dog is lacking anti-diuretic hormone -- the hormone that helps hold water in the body -- then allowing him to become even a little bit dehydrated is dangerous! He needs to be able to drink when he feels the urge.

 

I would check blood pressure as tbhounds mentions and try a lower-sodium diet.

[Guest LindsaySF]

If the vet suspects it's a psychological issue, then you should leave the water down 24/7. Spacing out the water, limiting it to small amounts at a time, etc, all of that will only make the dog MORE nuts for water. Trust me on this. Leave the water down. You might deal with the some accidents at first, but unless the dog can drink whenever he wants to, until he realizes water is always available, he's going to continue to be frantic for water and drink more than he needs (i.e. "tank up").

 

I would not worry about that creatinine level in a Greyhound, not if the BUN is normal.

 

My dog Cody has Diabetes Insipidus. He lacks anti-diuretic hormone, and he's on meds for it, but he still drinks a large amount of water. The vet told me that withholding water could kill him. If you at all suspect a medical issue with your dog, please don't restrict the water. It's better to have him drink too much, and have an accident, than to have him become dehydrated.

 

 

Allergies, skin issues, sensitive stomach, gastroenteritis (hospitalized on IV), anal glands, etc.

Have you tried different foods? All of these symptoms could be food allergy related. My boy Teagan had chronic anal gland problems (due to loose stool not expressing them enough). Since he's now (finally) on a food that agrees with him, no problems in that area. I would also deworm your dog (even if a fecal sample was negative), to make sure that's not an underlying problem.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Guest Timo]

Thanks for your replies. The vet ruled out diabetes insipidus. He has a dog with that who can't concentrate at all. He didn't say to limit the amount of water, but he did say to space it out and to give him measured amounts at a time. He was concerned about the medullary washout. I'm gonna try the vet's suggestions for a week or two, and I'll report back to him with any observations.

 

He does get a bowl of water in his crate when we leave the house. However, he refuses to drink out of it. We show him and pour in his presence. He just stares at us. That's why the vet thinks it's somewhat psychological. But then when we get home, he wants to drink an entire huge bowl of water in one sitting. Then he proceeds to regurgitate some of it from gulping the air. The vet thinks this drinking only during dinner time and no other time is pyschological. And he is afraid of this one time during the day drinking huge amounts causing the medullary washout. He actually suggested letting him get mildly dehydrated to let it build back up.

 

He is getting TOTW Pacific Stream. He has done great on it, including firm stools for the most part and it alleviated his skin allergies a lot. We fed him Merrick's Before Grain when we first got him, and he had major skin allergies and soft stool. That's when we switched to TOTW, and it helped tremendously!

Edited June 10, 2011 by Timo

[Batmom]

I would find a different vet. If the dog was experiencing some form of medullary washout (inability to retain water), restricting water could kill him. Restricting water is a really really bad idea at any time, much less when you don't know what's wrong. You can't rule out diabetes insipidus by guessing.

 

Please don't restrict your dog's access to water.

[Guest Timo]

He ruled it out by blood test and u/a. Timo is able to concentrate his urine based in the specific gravity test. It was 1.031 when he had to fast for the blood test. This vet is supposedly very experienced with greyhounds. They were highly recommended by Timo's "godparents," who were assigned to us by the adoption organization in our area.

 

Also, like I said, he has access to fresh water all day in his crate but refuses to drink any of it until we get home and he can gulp from his regular bowl.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Timo

[Batmom]

Ruling out d.i. by specific gravity is fine. I'm assuming that was this current urinalysis, and not the one 6 months ago?

 

I would repeat, though, that it is a bad idea to restrict the dog's access to water. In the case of a medullary washout, your vet has it exactly backwards. That is a case of a dog being unable, for whatever reason, to properly absorb water -- the same effect that occurs in diabetes insipidus. Restricting water is exactly what you don't want to do as it could cause fatal dehydration.

 

I would urge testing the dog's blood pressure and cardiac function, and doing a trial of low sodium food.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Glad the TOTW is working out then. It's worth trying a lower sodium food, to see if that helps with the water issue. But it seems the digestive issues and allergy issues are better on the TOTW at least?

 

 

It's pretty common for dogs to not drink much during the day, but then drink more once the owner is home. Most of my dogs do that.

 

If the problem is that your dog gulps water (and air), maybe a different bowl would help? (Large vs small, elevated vs floor, deep vs shallow, etc). Is he gulping water out of excitement? Or because he just ate kibble and his throat is dry? If the former, you can make sure he's calm before going for a drink. If the latter, you can add some water to his food, or add some canned food, so he's not so desperate for water right after eating. Some people add ice cubes so the dogs lap water around them, sometimes that slows them down.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest Timo]

The vet measured the specific gravity on both Monday morning and Tuesday morning.

 

We do add about 3/4 cup of water to each of his meals. Now that we are lowering his kibble and adding peas and carrots to his meal, he should be getting an overall lower sodium percentage, right?

 

My current plan is to leave water in his crate bowl 24/7. He has access to it all the time. He just doesn't want to drink it. He really only wants to drink when we get home/dinnertime. I just took him for a long hot walk (in south Florida), and he would only take two sips of water. He is kind of strange that way. He wants 2 liters all at once and none the rest of the time. I do think what the vet says about spacing out the water makes sense because it seems as though he would absorb more water this way. My plan is also to give him a cup of water in his kitchen bowl every 1/2 hour while we're home. Mind you, there is still untouched water in the crate bowl. My husband came home at 4 today and gave him a cup, then another cup every half hour after that. Then I fed him at 6 pm with water in his food. I gave him another cup of water after his meal, and he didn't touch it. It did seem to let him absorb more of the water because he didn't have to go like a racehorse 30 minutes after drinking. We just went for our regular walk after dinner. He did pee a lot during that walk, was panting after it, but refused to take more than two sips of his water.

 

I do think he has some psychological issues with water. He either gulps tons of it at one sitting or he refuses to drink any at all. Two weeks ago when he was having diarrhea, he refused to drink water at all for 24 hours. I wound up squirting water down his throat with a syringe because I was afraid he would get dehydrated. So, it seems it's either feast or famine with him in regards to water intake.

 

He is very excited when we come home, and that's when he drinks the most. Probably why he's gulping air. His bowls are elevated, both in the kitchen and in his crate.

[Batmom]

That sounds like a reasonable plan.

 

You might try distracting him with a toy or something at those times when he tends to gulp. I have had dogs who tended to drink a lot when they got excited, and sometimes you can call them off and give them something else to do. I have one now who also doesn't drink when we're gone but has to get a drink from the *other* water bowl as soon as we're home; doesn't overdo it tho.

[gracegirl]

I have a pup with minor kidney damage. He is 4.5 years old and this was discovered first by his pee accidents (also clear, odorless urine), then by his U/A (can't concentrate his urine) and bloodwork (all checked okay), finally by an ultrasound (revealed the kidney damage). If you are not sure what is going on with his kidneys, I would absolutely 100% suggest an abdominal ultrasound. This gave me exactly the answers I needed for diagnosis. I highly reccommend it, worth every penny.

 

Of course, now that I know what's wrong....I still have questions around treatment. But at least I know what's wrong and can monitor blood values and USG every few months to catch any changes fairly quickly. Good luck!

 

 

[Guest Timo]

Thanks! I'll have to ask the vet about ultrasounds. He suggested to me for potential kidney issues to lower the protein percentage to about 17%. He said to either try to find a kibble with that protein percentage or dilute his current food with veggies. Have you tried that with your puppy?

 

I'll try to distract him with a toy or a treat next time he is gulping too fast. He also eats too fast. He really is strange when it comes to water. In the past, he apparently drank much less than he was suppose to, according to the vet. We're only really noticing this problem now that he is drinking the "normal" amount. Mind you, that only started last week. And, we've had him over a year. I could not even force water down his throat when he is super hot. We'd go for 1/2 mile walks in 90+ degree weather, and he would refuse to drink. I would literally stick the bowl under his nose, and he would turn away and go lay on the tile for coolness. I have trouble understanding his psyche.