Metronidazole Again!

[Walliered]

I have a 5 year old grey. He weighs about 85 lbs and looks really good (coat, teeth), but every couple of weeks he quits eating and his stomach makes really loud sounds. Vet then puts him on 10 days of Metroidazole. This has been going on for 3-4 months. I feed him TOTW Pacific Stream. Please give me some ideas. Think also I would like to try him on the most sensitive dog food I can find. Any suggestions on this too?? Thanks so much.

[greyhead]

When this was first happening to Spencer, also then 5, it turned out to be hookworm. It took three fecals before that was diagnosed. Meanwhile, they tried metronidazole on the theory that it might be giardia. Apparently that med can actually knock hookworm down ever so slightly, as it did then, but it wasn't a lasting effect. It would be good if you could get him a fecal test done by a method that spins the sample before floatation. It's expensive equipment that most vets don't have, so it may have to be sent to your vet's lab. You should also know that a negative fecal doesn't mean there are no worms! It just means that if there are worms, they aren't shedding eggs right then. So never trust a negative fecal. If you get one, under your circumstances, repeat it weekly for 3 or 4 weeks to be sure. It can get pricey, but the cost of untreated hookworm can get very high indeed, as they have teeth and dig chanels into the walls of the intestines. They also migrate to the lungs and anywhere else in the body they choose, they cover themselves in cysts and go dormant, only to hatch when they get darned good and ready, and they can live in the soil of your yard. (Spencer's went undetected and untreated for at least 9 months. He later developed a severe intestinal infection and then IBD.)

 

Best of luck to you and your big boy!

[tbhounds]

Rather than run multiple stool checks I would do a 3 day protocol of panacur to be repeated in 3 weeks. You might also consider a food change. Did your vet reccomend trying I/D?? Your pup could have a low-grade pancreatitis- a spec cpl test would be benifical to rule that out- some clinics have that snap test in hospital -- it's a 8 mintue test, if not you'll need to have the lab run the test-- don't worry, it's a rather routine, inexpensive test.

Forgive me if there are typos- replying from my iPhone -- the font is so tiny and I'm still refusing to wear glasses!!

Edited March 22, 2011 by tbhounds

[4My2Greys]

Before you do a food change and feed a bad quality overpriced food do your grey and yourself a favor and just give him a tsp of Manuka honey a few times before his meals. You will find that not only does it stop the noisy gurgles and give him his appetite back, but these occurences will happen less and less frequently.

I use either Wedderspoons Raw Manuka Active 16+ or Y.S. Organic Bee Farms Raw Manuka 15+. Both can be bought through Vitacost.com

[tbhounds]

The aboved mentioned "bad quality, over priced" food may keep this hound healthy. I/d is a low fat easily digested food. Don't get me wrong, I don't love the Hills products but, if it keeps my hound healthy and out of the hospital so be it. If a comp OTC food is available with. 9% fat content then that might be a substitute.

Wanted to add-- has an antiacid been tried?

Edited March 22, 2011 by tbhounds

[Guest Swifthounds]

For how long does he not eat? And is it not eating at all, or just eating some? Does he have a noisy tummy other times, or just when he stops eating?

[4My2Greys]

Yes sometimes I/D is necessary unfortunately for some dogs, I'm just saying try a more healthy approach first which can and most likely will resolve the problem without requiring any food changes.

ETA: My apologies tbhounds for my first post coming across like it did.

Edited March 22, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Guest Swifthounds]

Was the metronidazole prescribed after a diagnosis? OR just as a cure-all?

[Walliered]

He does not eat or drink anything for at least 2 full days or until the Metronidazole has had time to start working. His stomach noises seem only to be when he stops eating and they keep on until again the medicine starts working. It was prescribed as a "cure all". It has only been 2 weeks since we were doing this before. Also, a couple of weeks ago he seemed to be very stiff in his hind end and would cry and change positions...went to the vet with the "not eating" and the hind end problems...she thought he had a problem with his gut so put him on the Metronidazone. I have taken him to the vet and asked her to X-ray him and do blood work..I want some answers. His stools have always been cow paddy consistancy and he has always acted like something was wrong with his hips, but now the not eating or drinking is becoming a pattern. When I first got him he had a molar that was split down to the bone because he had broken his jaw during a race..Jaw healed, but of course his tooth did not..He cryed all the time, so went to the vet and she pulled the tooth. So, no telling what else happened at the track..but all I want is to find out what the problem is so we can maybe fix it. Don't know if he has two issues or not. Thanks everyone for your input.

[Guest SoulsMom]

You might not ever 'find out what the problem is' only how to manage it. I went through the same thing with Soul and he ended up in the hospital bleeding internally from his GI tract. Ultrasound showed nothing. So, after many failed attempts at mixing up his diet, I finallay, reluctantly, switched him to all I/D all the time. And it worked He hasn't had a severe issue since. No gurglies, no gas, and his poops look great

[Walliered]

Oh, I forgot one thing. I have two greys and they both seem to have the same symptons maybe following each other by a day or two..

[Guest Swifthounds]

Definitely sounds like you have a parasite infestation going on, especially since it's both hounds and is following a cyclic pattern.

 

I'm not a fan of I/D anyway, but I don't know that the digestibility of the food is really the source of tour issue.

 

I would suggest sanitizing the environment as best you can and switching to a wormer with repeat dosing instead of the metronidazole. It sounds like you're basically giving it every few weeks when there's a flare up. That's either due to the particular stage in a parasites life cycle ( with hooks, whips, rounds etc) or just how long after a dose it takes for a single called organism to reach critical mass. You don't want to just keep beating it back every few weeks. You want to knock it out so the body has a chance to heal and recover to be ableto fight off reinfestation.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Swifthounds

[Guest SoulsMom]

Oh, I forgot one thing. I have two greys and they both seem to have the same symptons maybe following each other by a day or two..

 

Well, that changes things . . . def test the stools and what swifthounds said . . .

[Walliered]

I have repeatedly taken stool samples in to vet for both dogs. It always checks out negative. She keeps saying that if I am giving them a Heart Guard Plus every month, the chances of having parasites is nil. Can I insist on a prescription? I really hate to change vets, but will.

[Guest SoulsMom]

I think you need to find another vet. It's quite common for parasites to be present with nothing showing up on the stool sample, And I've been told this by several vets. What they should be telling you to do is what swifthounds suggested, among other things

[Guest Swifthounds]

The "plus" is pyrantel in a low dose designed to "control" certain worms its often not enough to treat an active infestation or both correct medication for the pest causing the problem. It's also common for parasites to become resistant to pyrantel.

[greyhead]

Also, a couple of weeks ago he seemed to be very stiff in his hind end and would cry and change positions...went to the vet with the "not eating" and the hind end problems...she thought he had a problem with his gut so put him on the Metronidazone. I want some answers. His stools have always been cow paddy consistancy and he has always acted like something was wrong with his hips, but now the not eating or drinking is becoming a pattern.

 

I wrote you a nice answer and then lost it! So here's it in a nutshell: this sounds like hookworm, and the worms are biting him. Each has six teeth, and this adds up to pain and damage. Went through all this with our Spencer. He started biting at the place where the back legs meet the body, he would whip his head around as though something had bitten him, and sometimes he'd jump up a foot and spin around like he was trying to get away.

 

Get a fecal done with a centrifuge process. Keep doing it until the eggs turn up. X-rays and bloodwork won't help you with this, unless he has had a bad enough case to develop anemia from it, and that usually only happens to puppies. Also watch for coughing up and immediately swallowing. This looks a lot like the "backward sneeze" but is in fact worms being coughed up from the lungs and swallowed back to the stomach.

 

Lots of vets aren't familiar with hookworm. Here in WA State they didn't think we had them, which is one thing that slowed down Spencer's diagnosis.

 

I got so depressed after getting no help or diagnosis from two vets, except possible "emotional problems," that I sat down and did nothing for two more months. I finally found a third vet with a good reputation, he did a fecal as a matter of SOP, and Spencer was so "loaded with hookworm" by then that he probably didn't even need his centrifuge equipment. But he did have it and did find them. Still not soon enough to prevent what turned out to be a permanent case of hookworm. So keep coming back here if you need energy transfusions to keep after this, but do try to keep after it.

 

Edited to add: Since fecals can miss things and be expensive, you could just ask for a prescription (Panacur or Drontal) and see if it helps. Worming doesn't hurt the dog if done with proper medicine. Oh, and Heartguard Plus every month won't cure a case of worms, though it theoretically prevents reinfestation. Even then, you'd need something like Interceptor instead, and none of them are foolproof.

Edited March 22, 2011 by greyhead

[tbhounds]

The "plus" is pyrantel in a low dose designed to "control" certain worms its often not enough to treat an active infestation or both correct medication for the pest causing the problem. It's also common for parasites to become resistant to pyrantel.

This is why in my first I suggested doing a course of panacur.

[Walliered]

We just got back from the vet. I wish I had read the e-mail about X-rays not helping, but I didn't. She did X-ray and it showed that he has a inflammed gut and that he is full of stool. He may also be starting to get a problem in a disk. I asked her to give him a course of Panacur and she did.She also did a fecal floation and a CBC which should be back in a few days. The tech showed me how to give the Panacur to Huck so went home and tried to do the same on Da Vid. Well, I think I got more on him and on the floor and fireplace than I got in his mouth. He actually acted like he was going to bite me. Guess I will carry both dogs to vet for next two days and let them give it to them. She said to also keep giving the Metroidazole to him. He is still not eating (but he is drinking) and his stomach is still really making LOUD sounds.

[tbhounds]

Didn't they give you the panacur granular's-- you just mix it in their food.

[Walliered]

No grandulars. She gave us the very thick liquid and a do-dad to put it in his mouth. I already called them and told them I could not do it and they said to bring them both in tomorrow. They will treat Da Vid like it is his first day on it since I don't think I got much in him. Huck is now eating so that was 2 days on the Metronidazole. His stomach is quiet. Thanks so much everyone for all of the help.

[greyhead]

Well, x-rays won't show hookworms, but you did get useful information, so I'm glad you didn't read my post ahead of time! Hope the Panacur does a lot for him and that any possible disk problem gets dealt with early. Will be watching for updates.

 

 

[Guest Cardiffcouple]

I am so glad to see this topic and the responses. Our Ben is going through what sounds a lot like this. To see that the worms might be biting would explain some of his behavior. Of course, our vet, who we love dearly, seems to discount what I tell her about the worm issue and my husband tends to go with what she says. We are on a second course of Metro and only seeing a tiny amount of improvement. This would answer so many of the issues that have come up for him. Thank you to all who have responded.

[Walliered]

I am sorry your hound has the same symptoms. My vet does not think it is worms either. Even today when I said he was "coughing" and then immediately swallowing, she said that would only happen in very advanced stages of hookworm. But, I had to ask her to please give them both Panacur. She is just humoring me. But, while we were at the vet's yesterday she did get a stool sample. She asked me if it always looked that it did and I told her that it had always been that way. She said that was not normal, but she did not find any worms in it. Oh well, I will just keep hoping we are doing something to get them well.

[Guest Swifthounds]

No grandulars. She gave us the very thick liquid and a do-dad to put it in his mouth. I already called them and told them I could not do it and they said to bring them both in tomorrow. They will treat Da Vid like it is his first day on it since I don't think I got much in him. Huck is now eating so that was 2 days on the Metronidazole. His stomach is quiet. Thanks so much everyone for all of the help.

 

The liquid is usually the formulation for goats and cattle. Vets use it off label for dogs because the granules for dogs are quite pricey. Believe it or not, the granules are often much easier for owners to give at home. It's a bit of a skill to dose liquids, especially with a dog that isn't thrilled about being medicated. I started my dosing of liquids with thoroughbreds, so a dog or cat has never seemed much of a challenge, but I've seen some pet owners have a very bad time of giving the liquids - they just make quite a mess quickly.

 

They do also sell a pill form for dogs. That might be easier in the future. You can get it at most pet stores, though it's not cheap.