Bomb Proofing A Fragile Dog....

[Burpdog]

Have you done a thyroid panel on her?

[Guest brandi007]

Have you done a thyroid panel on her?

 

I've done one on her but not recently. She also has Lyme which she is treated for with Doxy when it surfaces. She's due for another work up in spring....

[Guest Swifthounds]

Are you new to the breed?

 

As I said, theres no such beast as not food motivated, just as there's no such thing as a hound only motivated by food and who will not work for praise alone. Both of those assertions are lack of training ability on the part of the person, not differences in the dog.

[Guest brandi007]

Are you new to the breed?

 

As I said, theres no such beast as not food motivated, just as there's no such thing as a hound only motivated by food and who will not work for praise alone. Both of those assertions are lack of training ability on the part of the person, not differences in the dog.

 

Have you met my dog?

 

I'm trying to explain my experiences with Hannah and whats worked for her and what hasn't. I don't see how remarks like this help me or her at all? What do you suggest I do rather than pointing out my lack of "training ability" in not being able to find a food that Hannah will take in stressful situations? Thanks though....

 

PS: Looking for helpful information on ways I can more quickly help her adapt and not be so fearful in new situations. I know I lack the "Training ability" to help Hannah because if I didn't we would of worked this out a long time ago.

Edited March 8, 2011 by brandi007

[Jackandgrey]

Are you new to the breed?

 

As I said, theres no such beast as not food motivated, just as there's no such thing as a hound only motivated by food and who will not work for praise alone. Both of those assertions are lack of training ability on the part of the person, not differences in the dog.

 

That is spectacularly unhelpful.

[GeorgeofNE]

Has she met children? My angel Zema had some things in common with your girl re being reactive ...... But, except for getting a smidge overexcited/rough when playing, she did great with children. From her point of view, children were MUCH less offensive than large adult strangers, other dogs, etc.

 

Hugs and best luck.

 

Interesting you say this--we had a Lab, of all things, who was an odd fellow who did NOT like strangers, at ALL. I mean the kind of dog you couldn't let anyone pet in public.

 

When the grandchildren started to arrive on the scene, we were very worried--turns out he LOVED kids!

[Guest Lovey_Hounds]

Are you new to the breed?

 

As I said, theres no such beast as not food motivated, just as there's no such thing as a hound only motivated by food and who will not work for praise alone. Both of those assertions are lack of training ability on the part of the person, not differences in the dog.

 

Have you met my dog?

 

I'm trying to explain my experiences with Hannah and whats worked for her and what hasn't. I don't see how remarks like this help me or her at all? What do you suggest I do rather than pointing out my lack of "training ability" in not being able to find a food that Hannah will take in stressful situations? Thanks though....

 

PS: Looking for helpful information on ways I can more quickly help her adapt and not be so fearful in new situations. I know I lack the "Training ability" to help Hannah because if I didn't we would of worked this out a long time ago.

 

Brandi I Contacted a friend of mine who is a great trainer and i will see what he says and get you his info.

And Yes I have met Hannah and i have never seen a dog so un food motivated in my life! and i work with dogs on a daily basis. Im know we can all work together to find something that will work for hannah

[Guest Swifthounds]

Has she met children? My angel Zema had some things in common with your girl re being reactive ...... But, except for getting a smidge overexcited/rough when playing, she did great with children. From her point of view, children were MUCH less offensive than large adult strangers, other dogs, etc.

 

Hugs and best luck.

 

My first spook was terrified of adult strangers, but was the most gentle soul with small children and tiny dogs. Some dogs really are very different with children.

 

 

Are you new to the breed?

 

As I said, theres no such beast as not food motivated, just as there's no such thing as a hound only motivated by food and who will not work for praise alone. Both of those assertions are lack of training ability on the part of the person, not differences in the dog.

 

Have you met my dog?

 

I'm trying to explain my experiences with Hannah and whats worked for her and what hasn't. I don't see how remarks like this help me or her at all? What do you suggest I do rather than pointing out my lack of "training ability" in not being able to find a food that Hannah will take in stressful situations? Thanks though....

 

PS: Looking for helpful information on ways I can more quickly help her adapt and not be so fearful in new situations. I know I lack the "Training ability" to help Hannah because if I didn't we would of worked this out a long time ago.

 

Meeting your dog would make no difference. Some dogs react more positively to body language, some to food, and some to voice, but all dogs are motivated by each of those things - it's instinctual and how they survive. Any dog will tend to be more responsive to one of those things than the others, and you can use that response to reinforce the response to the other two. Most dogs tend to be strongest on food, hence why people tend to train using treats as a reward and over time will use that reward to generalize to the dog responding to solely verbal praise and/or body signal. That's the usual way, but you can train the reverse way because dogs are all motivated by food, language, and sounds. People just tend to call those less typical dogs "not food motivated" simply because they skew towards being more motivated by either of the other things, and they don't understand the interplay between them. Any dog in the world who isn't particularly food motivated will rapidly become food motivated if food is made available only during interactive sessions.

 

You can take offense at terminology, but as long as you only look at a situation from a single perspective, where that perspective misapprehends how dogs learn/function, you're unlikely to see the progress you seek. The hardest lesson to learn with greyhounds is that sometimes you have to take a step back and consider that what's not working isn't working because it's working against something innate about dogs and how they communicate, learn and adapt. Many greyhounds are easy to train and will learn by methods that require little effort or understanding of how dogs operate and communicate. Because it works with many dogs, when one finally encounters a dog that because of fear, anxiety, or conditioning can't make the leap in communication that the other dogs have,it's tempting to think that the problem is the dog and not our approach.

 

Dogs don't eat food when they are highly stressed. That doesn't have anything to do with the dog's level of motivation relative to food - it's instinctual. When stressed enough, they will ignore food, voice, and body language. Stress puts a dog in a place where rather than making decisions based on those senses, the adrenaline is flowing and they shut off other functions in preparation for fight or flight. You won't get anywhere at that point with food, voice, or body language. Usually the best thing you can dog is remove either the stressor or the dog from the situation. The way you work through those situations is by honing response to food, voice, and body language in unstressful, everyday situations and building the bond while working up to more stressful situations. With a dog you've had for a while, you have the distinct advantage of having an idea where different situations fall on the spectrum from low to high stress.

 

Are you new to the breed?

 

As I said, theres no such beast as not food motivated, just as there's no such thing as a hound only motivated by food and who will not work for praise alone. Both of those assertions are lack of training ability on the part of the person, not differences in the dog.

 

That is spectacularly unhelpful.

 

That depends on whether the goal is to help the dog in a stressful situation, or to avoid hurting the human's feelings. Perhaps it would have been less offensive to the OP if I had used the words "perspective" or "understanding" (though, perhaps not) but the message would be the same. There was no intent on my part to hurt the OP's feelings. Along the way, anyone who knows anything about hounds has been told a time or two (or more) that they're taking a wrong approach, misunderstanding something, or missing something - usually at a time when they have the opportunity to learn something. It's natural to feel hurt or even a bit offended (no one particularly enjoys being told they're doing something wrong or unhelpful or counterproductive), but what's worse, changing an approach and possibly changing the result or continuing to butt one's head up against the same wall over and over again? You get to understanding one of three ways: someone points it out and you try something different, you try everything else first to exhaustion and find your way there on your own, or you pursue the same course to exhaustion and then give up.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I first wanted to comment on the title of this thread: "Bomb-proofing a fragile dog". In my opinion, I do not think this is possible. Temperament is a combination of genetics and environment. Some dogs have a "bomb proof" temperament, either with people, other dogs, etc. But I don't think you can create a "bomb proof" dog through training. Either the dog has it or they don't. I do think you can greatly improve a dog's behavior, you can desensitize them to specific fears/triggers, things like that. But if the dog has a "fragile" temperament, part of that will always remain.

Hannah sounds a lot like my dog Cody. Cody is fear aggressive as well, both with strange dogs and people. Most of the time he just growls/lunges, he is giving a lot of warning and doesn't want to bite. But he has bitten before (badly), both other animals and people. Usually when he feels cornered in some way, or due to a stressor (storms, company at the house, etc). Cody has come SO far since I adopted him, but no way would I ever trust him with children. He is just too insecure and nervous, honestly he is mentally/emotionally damaged.

 

He was around 3 years old when I adopted him (vet's best guess on age), so we have no idea what happened to him before, whether he was abused, or whether his issues are genetic and his parents or siblings had them too. But I have accepted that while he has improved, he will never be a "bomb proof" dog. He can't do dog parks, he can't handle crowds, he can't handle kids, he needs super slow introductions to foster dogs, etc. I didn't plan on having kids anyway, but if I had, I would wait until Cody was gone. So I just wanted to mention that, that there is the possibility that Hannah can never handle being in a household with children.

 

 

Dogs don't eat food when they are highly stressed. That doesn't have anything to do with the dog's level of motivation relative to food - it's instinctual. When stressed enough, they will ignore food, voice, and body language. Stress puts a dog in a place where rather than making decisions based on those senses, the adrenaline is flowing and they shut off other functions in preparation for fight or flight. You won't get anywhere at that point with food, voice, or body language. Usually the best thing you can dog is remove either the stressor or the dog from the situation. The way you work through those situations is by honing response to food, voice, and body language in unstressful, everyday situations and building the bond while working up to more stressful situations. With a dog you've had for a while, you have the distinct advantage of having an idea where different situations fall on the spectrum from low to high stress.

I agree with this. Some dogs are more food-motivated than others, but they all have some level of food-motivation, or else they would starve to death. For some dogs praise works much better, or even a toy, and you can use that to your advantage.

 

One thing that stands out to me is that not only is Hannah too afraid to take food in public, but she also still won't take a treat from your hand, in your own house. The fact that she does eat it once you leave shows that she wants it (if she was not food-motivated at all the treat would still be there when you came back), but she is too afraid to take it from your hand or to eat it in front of you. At home should be where Hannah is the most comfortable. If she still isn't comfortable taking treats there, I would work on that first. You need to tackle that step before bringing her into potentially stressful situations and trying food (or even praise) there. Baby steps.

 

That is spectacularly unhelpful.

That depends on whether the goal is to help the dog in a stressful situation, or to avoid hurting the human's feelings. Perhaps it would have been less offensive to the OP if I had used the words "perspective" or "understanding" (though, perhaps not) but the message would be the same.

The message might be the same, but no one will listen to it if it's delivered in a condescending manner. I've been guilty of the same. I think your advice is sound advice, but the presentation could use work. No offense meant.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Guest brandi007]

I first wanted to comment on the title of this thread: "Bomb-proofing a fragile dog". In my opinion, I do not think this is possible. Temperament is a combination of genetics and environment. Some dogs have a "bomb proof" temperament, either with people, other dogs, etc. But I don't think you can create a "bomb proof" dog through training. Either the dog has it or they don't. I do think you can greatly improve a dog's behavior, you can desensitize them to specific fears/triggers, things like that. But if the dog has a "fragile" temperament, part of that will always remain.]

 

First off, thanks so much for the awesome reply.

 

In my years meeting many greyhounds through volunteering and my adoption group of all personality types I honestly think Hannah has the potential to be a sound dog - not necessarily a 'meet and greet' dog but definitely better than what she is right now, her trainer in dog school agreed and even said to me that she could one day be a therapy dog with lots of work. She really has a wicked drive to please you and you can see this 'want' in her to be happy and wiggly 24/7. She really loves people about 80%-90% of the time but sometimes something just changes in her and she has a melt down - I can physically see the change in her when this happens and have learned to watch for it and remove her from situations like this while trying to keep it positive. It's hard to explain but it's almost like there's 2 very distinctive sides to Hannah.

 

Side one is this incredibly funny, happy, wiggly and kissy dog. She loves people, gets excited when she sees other dogs and wants to meet kids (cautiously). She leaps, skips and bounds on her walks!

 

Side two is this insecure fearful dog that feels the need to fight or flight. She hides, she growls, she barks and air snaps (no contact though). She twists around in her leash and just shuts down.

 

There's like no middle ground - she's either one way or the other. Some things that I think are going to set her off she's fine with one day but not the next. This can be a change made in minutes also, like with the cable guy. You even see it with her and Sophie. She looks towards Sophie for guidance while trying to dominate her at the same time. One minute she's laying down with Sophie cleaning her ears and following her around, the next she's snapping at her for touching her or is 'aggressively' herding her around the living room. The black and white changes are what's throwing me off.

 

One thing that stands out to me is that not only is Hannah too afraid to take food in public, but she also still won't take a treat from your hand, in your own house. The fact that she does eat it once you leave shows that she wants it (if she was not food-motivated at all the treat would still be there when you came back), but she is too afraid to take it from your hand or to eat it in front of you. At home should be where Hannah is the most comfortable. If she still isn't comfortable taking treats there, I would work on that first. You need to tackle that step before bringing her into potentially stressful situations and trying food (or even praise) there. Baby steps.

 

Do you have any suggestions for this? I really don't know why she's like this at home. I've never stuck her or even yelled at her, the worst she's gotten is a quick "Hey!" or "Get down" and a stern look. I've never even used a spray bottle on her before. I'm a strict believer in positive reinforcement for good behavior rather than negative for unwanted behavior, especially in a fearful dog with no confidence. I'm not saying it's not fear that's preventing her from taking food from my hands but she just doesn't seem scared - it's almost like a "I don't care" or "I'm too focused on something else" like what myself or Sophie is doing when it's the issue at home. I'm going to see if I can get it on video.... it's hard to explain. Last night's bed time cookie was so gently taken from my hand that it fell on the floor - she did finish it but very slowly but it was consumed in front of me. She also takes things like small pieces of Cheese from my hand (sooooo gently as before) but will bring it over to her bed to finish rather than eating it where you give it to her.

 

I had really hoped that she could learn a sit, a down or any goofy trick in dog school so we could do the "Work for what you get" thing, like making her sit before dinner or a treat but this quickly went out the window. She won't do the "follow the treat" method of learning (ie lifting it up and back to move her into a sit, or down) and you can't really do the backing into a wall or manipulating her gently into the position you want without her panicking. She has a pretty awesome leave it and wait though - which we use as much as we can (and I'm quite proud of her for).

 

Another note - all classes in dog school were done without receiving any meals that day so she'd be more 'motivated' to take food. Still didn't work :/

[Guest Swifthounds]

I first wanted to comment on the title of this thread: "Bomb-proofing a fragile dog". In my opinion, I do not think this is possible. Temperament is a combination of genetics and environment. Some dogs have a "bomb proof" temperament, either with people, other dogs, etc. But I don't think you can create a "bomb proof" dog through training. Either the dog has it or they don't. I do think you can greatly improve a dog's behavior, you can desensitize them to specific fears/triggers, things like that. But if the dog has a "fragile" temperament, part of that will always remain.

 

Well put. I wanted to comment on the title in my original post, but was reading on my phone and multi-tasking and did not do so. Imagine if I had...

 

I have a hound that is pretty bomb proof. Some of it has been through training, but most of it is just his personality. He's the kind of dog who can be playing in the yard and stumble, fall into a wire fence, rip it off the post and get tangled in it, fall to the ground, roll around and just stand up - still tangled in the fence - and wait patiently for someone to come untangle him. That's not to say that he lacks any other issues. He's just the type of hound whose personality is well suited to chaos, screaming kids, and lots of sights and sounds that would frighten many other hounds.

 

Conditioning is important and training and learning should be lifelong, but not all dogs will get to the same point in various areas of achievement. Temperment will determine some of the things that come naturally or easily to a particular dog and other things that are more difficult - it's what makes then each individuals.

 

One thing that stands out to me is that not only is Hannah too afraid to take food in public, but she also still won't take a treat from your hand, in your own house. The fact that she does eat it once you leave shows that she wants it (if she was not food-motivated at all the treat would still be there when you came back), but she is too afraid to take it from your hand or to eat it in front of you. At home should be where Hannah is the most comfortable. If she still isn't comfortable taking treats there, I would work on that first. You need to tackle that step before bringing her into potentially stressful situations and trying food (or even praise) there. Baby steps. [/size][/font]

 

Agreed. Safe at home in low stress is a starting point, and a high stress environment with children is many, many baby steps down the road.

 

That depends on whether the goal is to help the dog in a stressful situation, or to avoid hurting the human's feelings. Perhaps it would have been less offensive to the OP if I had used the words "perspective" or "understanding" (though, perhaps not) but the message would be the same.

The message might be the same, but no one will listen to it if it's delivered in a condescending manner. I've been guilty of the same. I think your advice is sound advice, but the presentation could use work. No offense meant.

 

Point taken. And not offended at all. Honestly, part of the issue is the difficulty of conveying tone in print without writing a veritable book in response to each request for help/advice and part is that no one really enjoys being told that what they're doing/thinking might be "wrong" or not the best way to do things. The biggest issue, though is that some people will be offended by either my original language, some or all of the alternative choices above, and some will be offended by any of those.

 

I learned a long time ago that if I was going to spend time with humans, and especially if I was going to strive to improve aspects of my dogs' welfare and my life with them by seeking the help or advice and knowledge of those with more experience, I was going to have to assume when I asked for help/advice that any reply given was offered in the spirit of help/advice and not for the purpose of hurting my feelings. I'm just not the kind to throw the baby out with the bath water - my hounds come first.

 

If no one here understands anything else about me, or the advice I offer, know this: I never intend to hurt feelings when I offer advice on a topic; I only intend to offer advice that will be helpful for a hound and its human. If something I write here offends, it was not meant to do so. I simply try to help where I am able, within the time constraints of the more important concerns in my life. Sometimes that means I might not say something in the kindest way possible, no matter how hard I try. I usually try to re-read my posts and adjust language for tone and "effect on the reader" but it's not always feasible and I'm certainly not perfect.

[greysmom]

I had really hoped that she could learn a sit, a down or any goofy trick in dog school so we could do the "Work for what you get" thing, like making her sit before dinner or a treat but this quickly went out the window. She won't do the "follow the treat" method of learning (ie lifting it up and back to move her into a sit, or down) and you can't really do the backing into a wall or manipulating her gently into the position you want without her panicking. She has a pretty awesome leave it and wait though - which we use as much as we can (and I'm quite proud of her for).

 

Another note - all classes in dog school were done without receiving any meals that day so she'd be more 'motivated' to take food. Still didn't work :/

 

She really does sound like my Cash.

 

The biggest thing I was able to teach Cash was the command "watch me." Looking into your eyes (or the eyes of another dog) is a very "dominant" (Ihate those terms) behavior. After a couple weeks working at this command (with the yummiest treats available when she was feeling relaxed) she finally learned that it was OK to look me in the eyes. He confidence level really took off after that and we made big strides in learning new behaviors and becoming more calm and confident.

 

I've since worked with her on any commands or playing that I can that will boost her confidence level - I let her win at tug-of-war, I let her ask for and receive attention any time she wants it, if she's shows interest in looking at/sniffing/exploring anything in the yard or wherever we are I let her take her time and do it. I try to always set her up to succeed at what we're doing, and she gets praised mightily for a calm and confident response. And when she's had a good stretch, I challenge her just a little bit, so she keeps learning and growing. Sometimes it's two steps forward and two or three steps back, but at least I have some tools to help her move forward again.

 

It takes a long time and lots of patience, but I'll do anything for my little Princess!

[Jackandgrey]

The fact that she does eat it once you leave shows that she wants it (if she was not food-motivated at all the treat would still be there when you came back), but she is too afraid to take it from your hand or to eat it in front of you.

 

See for me eating in private has nothing to do with food motivation as the term is used in training. That would be hunger. Food motivated classically means the animal is willing to work or do something for the food. And no not all dogs are. Fear and the adrenalin rush it causes will ALWAYS take precedence over taking treats in a training session no matter how fabulous the treat may be or hungry the dog is.

 

Anyway back to Hannah's problem.

[greysmom]

Well, that is Hannah's problem. At least, it's a place to start.

 

She won't take food treats as a reward - because she's still anxious and stressed and doesn't know any other behavior to put in place of those responses. This is one reason I suggested medication some posts back. She literally can not calm herself enough for behavior modification to have any effect. There's too much adrenalin and other stress hormones flooding her brain. Somehow this cycle must be broken long enough to clear her body of the overload of toxic chemicals long enough so that she has a chance of re-learning responses.

 

Cash was on meds for three months before we were able to make *any* break throughs at all. And even now, when we are beginning to wean her off the drugs, if she begins an "adrenalin cycle" before her pills take effect, or she becomes overloaded by her situation, she can go to Cash Land. She won't respond, won't take treats no matter how tasty, won't do any commands that she knows cold otherwise. If I force her to stand still she will shake until I'm fearful she'll hurt herself. If she ever managed to get away or escape while in this state I don't think I would ever see her again.

 

Her flight response is as extreme as Hannah's fear aggression, just more manageable and less dangerous to people and other animals around her. At least Hannah is able to be off leash when not in the house. Cash won't come to me when she's anxious (which can be set off in an instant) and won't follow the other dogs inside, and I don't always have four hours to spend supervising her until she gets tired enough, so she is on leash even in our own securely fenced yard. I'm hoping we can try again as soon as the weather gets better to see how se does now after she's made such big strides this winter.

[Guest Swifthounds]

The fact that she does eat it once you leave shows that she wants it (if she was not food-motivated at all the treat would still be there when you came back), but she is too afraid to take it from your hand or to eat it in front of you.

 

See for me eating in private has nothing to do with food motivation as the term is used in training. That would be hunger. Food motivated classically means the animal is willing to work or do something for the food. And no not all dogs are. Fear and the adrenalin rush it causes will ALWAYS take precedence over taking treats in a training session no matter how fabulous the treat may be or hungry the dog is.

 

Anyway back to Hannah's problem.

 

Except that for a dog, working for food is a natural thing, indistinct from hunger. They are designed to seek out and obtain food - whether by hunting or scavenging. It's really not having to work or interact to obtain food that is odd.

 

True, fear and adrenaline cause a dog to cease all non essential and non fight/flight mechanisms, and that will block hunger. But any dog is food motivated, unless trained not to be. It's the placing of sufficient food in a bowl where they can eat without working for it that will condition a hesitant/fearful dog that food will always be plentiful and that they must do nothing to earn it, so why take the treat from you? Working for their meals, especially with a dog who is shy and fearful is a very good way to motivate and to build a bond with a dog where there has yet not been one.

 

A hound initiating affection or interacting with you during only periods when he/she is comfortable and relaxed and on their own terms is nice, but it's not a bond. A bond is a relationship based on trust and respect, and it is what allows the unconfident/fearful animal to trust in new or anxiety-creating situations that you would not place them in harms way, and to move forward and grow. It can take longer with some dogs, but no matter how long it takes, it's worth it to see an animal love and trust you enough to delve into new things.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Side one is this incredibly funny, happy, wiggly and kissy dog. She loves people, gets excited when she sees other dogs and wants to meet kids (cautiously). She leaps, skips and bounds on her walks!

 

Side two is this insecure fearful dog that feels the need to fight or flight. She hides, she growls, she barks and air snaps (no contact though). She twists around in her leash and just shuts down.

 

There's like no middle ground - she's either one way or the other. Some things that I think are going to set her off she's fine with one day but not the next. This can be a change made in minutes also, like with the cable guy. You even see it with her and Sophie. She looks towards Sophie for guidance while trying to dominate her at the same time. One minute she's laying down with Sophie cleaning her ears and following her around, the next she's snapping at her for touching her or is 'aggressively' herding her around the living room. The black and white changes are what's throwing me off.

Cody is the same. He's either really happy, running around tail wagging, or he's trying to kill you. I laugh, but it's true. He'll be fine one minute, Cujo the next.

 

He also has good days and bad days. On what we call his "good days", not much bothers him, and he's amazingly tolerant of the usual stuff that tends to set him off. On his "bad" days, watch out. He's quick to react with a snarl/snap/bite, and his tolerance or threshold for stress is very low. It doesn't take much to set him off on his bad days. Honestly, he spends a lot of time in his ex-pen on those days, with a bone to chew and surrounded by his toys. He's happier there, he feels safe, and the other dogs (especially fosters) are safer that way. On his good days, he's out more to interact with everyone.

 

That type of unpredictability, the inconsistency, is what I tend to think is the genetic part of things, the chemical part, the part that's just "not right" upstairs. And that's the part that's frustrating for sure. But like Greysmom says, for some dogs medication can really help.

 

 

Do you have any suggestions for this? I really don't know why she's like this at home. I've never stuck her or even yelled at her, the worst she's gotten is a quick "Hey!" or "Get down" and a stern look. I've never even used a spray bottle on her before. I'm a strict believer in positive reinforcement for good behavior rather than negative for unwanted behavior, especially in a fearful dog with no confidence. I'm not saying it's not fear that's preventing her from taking food from my hands but she just doesn't seem scared - it's almost like a "I don't care" or "I'm too focused on something else" like what myself or Sophie is doing when it's the issue at home. I'm going to see if I can get it on video.... it's hard to explain. Last night's bed time cookie was so gently taken from my hand that it fell on the floor - she did finish it but very slowly but it was consumed in front of me. She also takes things like small pieces of Cheese from my hand (sooooo gently as before) but will bring it over to her bed to finish rather than eating it where you give it to her.

I'd definitely be interested in seeing a video of it. I bet it is still a fear response, just not a classic fear response. Being preoccupied or focused on other things is how some dogs react to fearful or stressful situations. They won't take the cookie from you, but deep down they really want it. One way to test for this is to give them the cookie somewhere where they feel safe (a crate, a bed, etc). If they eat the cookie there, they wanted it. They might just be too fearful to take that same cookie out in the open, in the presence of other dogs, heck on the wood floors or near a window, could be any number of reasons that are stupid to us humans, but important to the fearful dog.

 

My girl Honey is a good example of this. My mom really likes apples, she cuts some up almost every night, and she usually has a pack of dogs around her waiting for some. Honey, the dog who eats everything, would refuse to eat apples in the kitchen. (She eats dog biscuits and other people food fine there). We figured for at least a year that she just didn't like apples. Well low and behold, I tossed a piece into an ex-pen, thinking a different dog was in there, and she ate it! I gave her another piece, and she ate that too. The next night she was standing in the kitchen with the other dogs, eager for a piece of apple. I figured she had finally learned how yummy they are, and we gave her a piece. She took it, brought it to the carpet a few feet away, and spit it out. (Lily promptly scarfed it up ). I was confused, does she like apples or not? I put her in her crate, gave her a piece of apple there, and she ate it. Who knows why, but for some reason, Honey does not feel comfortable eating apples in the kitchen. Why apples are different from all the other treats she gets, I don't know. (Maybe because they are squishy? She does chew them for longer). I suspect she feels like she needs to compete with the other dogs, so she won't eat them in the kitchen. She won't bring them to her crate either. But if I give them to her IN her crate, she eats them. Weirdo.

 

I had a foster a few months ago that was a very fearful dog. She would just freeze in place when she was frightened, and would lean on me, but she wouldn't shake or run or anything, so many people didn't realize that she was so afraid. They thought it was cute that she would lean on me, but I knew that she was doing it because she was terrified. She absolutely loved food, she would scarf her dinner down like no tomorrow, but she wouldn't take cookies from anyone. She would watch the other dogs take the cookies, and she would watch them eat it, but she would not approach for one. If I tried to give her one she would turn her face away. You'd think she just didn't want one right? Nope, she wanted one desperately, but she was too afraid to take it, and too afraid to battle the other dogs and compete for it. Her ears always perked up when I touched the treat jar, so I figured she was indeed interested but too afraid. I discovered this by feeding her cookies once while all but one of the other dogs were outside. I put the cookie down in front of her, she saw the other dog a few feet away eating their cookie, and she grabbed hers and ran to her crate to eat it. That was a breakthrough for her though, from then on she would accept cookies from me in the house. She still wouldn't take one if she was surrounded by too many other dogs, and no way would she take one in public, but at home yes. And she still brought them to her crate or a nearby dog bed to eat them.

 

A side note about that foster, she was in a home for 2 years and was returned. In that home she NEVER learned to take treats from the hands of her owners. I suspect being an only dog was too much for her, she was too insecure for that, but other factors played a part, and she was never truly happy there IMO. Also, the husband yelled at her a lot (for entering the kitchen, one of their bizarre "rules"). I don't think they ever physically harmed her, but the yelling was enough to traumatize her. She was a different dog at my house, and she's a totally different dog in her new home as well.

 

I have also found that small, soft treats, are the best for fearful dogs. (Long enough to take without touching your hand though, I like to use Pupperoni sticks broken in half). If they "miss" and it falls on the floor, it won't make much noise and startle them. And being small they can consume it in a bite or two. The treats that take too long to eat make the fearful dogs nervous, because they are very vulnerable while they are eating. They'd prefer to swallow it quickly and get it over with, so they can get back to scanning their surroundings for potential threats. It's sad to think about it that way, but that's what's going on in many of their little heads. Stinky treats are very enticing too (cheese, bacon, hot dogs, etc).

 

 

Another note - all classes in dog school were done without receiving any meals that day so she'd be more 'motivated' to take food. Still didn't work :/

Yeah she is likely too nervous in a dog class to take food, even if she's hungry. Cody still won't take treats in public, even from me. Yet at home he eats everything!

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[JJNg]

I first wanted to comment on the title of this thread: "Bomb-proofing a fragile dog". In my opinion, I do not think this is possible. Temperament is a combination of genetics and environment. Some dogs have a "bomb proof" temperament, either with people, other dogs, etc. But I don't think you can create a "bomb proof" dog through training. Either the dog has it or they don't. I do think you can greatly improve a dog's behavior, you can desensitize them to specific fears/triggers, things like that. But if the dog has a "fragile" temperament, part of that will always remain.

Wonderful reply, Lindsay, and I agree wholeheartedly with this. My greatest teacher was my fear aggressive Italian greyhound, who I got as a puppy when I was still in high school living with my parents. I initially attributed all his behavior issues to lack of socialization and inappropriate training methods (the initial trainers and vets I consulted with all recommended traditional force/dominance based methods). I eventually came to accept that his behavior was in part genetic. With that understanding, I adjusted my goals and expectations, and I found that allowed me to deepen my relationship with him and actually make more progress.

 

One point I wanted to address was the issue of unpredictability and inconsistency of behavior, of being happy and wiggly one minute, and fearful or aggressive the next. To some extent, I agree that this may be an issue of brain chemistry and genetics. But I also believe that this type of behavior is due in part to stress and the dog's threshold of tolerance. Still related to brain chemistry/genetics, but the dog's stress level is something we can have a little more control over.

 

With my IG Casey, his main issues were reactivity/fear aggression toward strangers and fear and insecurity around unknown dogs. In addition to this, he was reactive toward hands coming near him, which included interactions with me at home. When he was happy and relaxed, he was fine with me petting and touching him, but if he was stressed, he could lash out and 'attack' - lunging and biting repeatedly. There were a couple instances when I was just reaching near him (with no intention of touching him) to get something, and that was enough to trigger an attack.

 

It took me a while to recognize the pattern - that these episodes were related to underlying stress level - because the source of the stress could have been completely unrelated to the particular interaction or immediately preceding events. I started keeping a journal of my work with him and noticed that these incidents often happened after I had taken him out in public to work on his reactivity toward strangers, or a trip to the dog park to get him socialized with other dogs, or my parents coming to visit. His aggression toward me at home almost always happened within a couple days of some outside stressor.

 

Sometimes I think dogs do just have good days and bad days for no obvious reason, like us. But when we start looking at the 'big picture' and take into account all aspects of the dog's life, there may be identifiable sources of stress that explain some of the reactive behavior. As in people, chronic stress causes increased irritability and shorter tempers.

 

It sounds like you've made lots of progress with Hannah already and that you're very in tune with her body language. I'm wondering if you're familiar with calming signals, and if not, that's something that may help you read her even better. Sensitive dogs with a low threshold of tolerance can become overwhelmed by situations very quickly, and this may partly be why they seem ok one second and suddenly react badly the next. Recognizing calming signals can sometimes help you notice these situations developing and hopefully avoid the response.

 

Not sure if this is the case with Hannah, but I find that a lot of dogs who 'suddenly' snap or growl while being petted have been trying to communicate their discomfort with the interaction through calming signals. But most people don't notice these subtle signs, so the dog finally snaps/snarks when they can't tolerate it anymore. By recognizing these signs and backing off before the dog becomes overwhelmed, you can build a stronger bond of mutual trust and respect.

 

To help Hannah respond better to certain situations, you'll have to change her underlying emotional state. This can be done through desensitization and classical counter-conditioning, but to effectively do this, you need to have a consistent reinforcer (usually food), so this may need to be your first step. The idea is to pair the identified trigger with something the dog really enjoys so they form a pleasant association and the trigger becomes a predictor of good things.

 

With being petted, which seems to be one of Hannah's triggers (even if occasional), this can be done without food. If she particularly enjoys certain types of touch, such being scratched or massaged in a certain way, or in certain areas, start with keeping to those types of interaction and slowly expand to other areas and types of touching and petting. To recognize what she does or doesn't enjoy, and whether she's receptive to it that day/time, you'll have to read her body language very closely, and also be aware of your own body language in how you're affecting her. You'll also need to supervise other people's interactions with her so that she isn't triggered by others as well. Each time she petted in a way that makes her uncomfortable enough to feel the need to growl and snap, she learns that's the only way she can make the interaction stop. By not triggering any reactions, the goal is to make all touching is a positive association for Hannah.

 

This is what I did with my IG Casey, and I had to go very slowly and carefully as a mistake that triggered a reaction would mean getting 'attacked' and bitten (fortunately, there's only so much a 16 lb dog can do). He liked having his butt scratched and being rubbed behind his ears, and for a while, those were the only places I touched when I was petting him. Note that this was just me working with him at home. I did not allow any strangers to ever touch him and chose not to even address that issue. I saw no need to have him greet strangers out in public on walks or to accept being touched by them. We just avoided people when out, and I almost never had company over. Anyone who did come over were friends I could trust to follow my instructions to ignore Casey completely and not try to touch him even if he approached them.

 

Another point to consider is that outwardly happy, wiggly, excited behavior isn't necessarily free from stress. With a reactive dog, I actually prefer to encourage more of a calm, relaxed response, as I feel that helps them cope better and reduce stress.

 

Hannah's space issues and reactive response to being petted sometimes is actually very similar to the dog in the thread "My Greyhound Has Repeatedly Bitten Me". I included some links to info about calming signals there (post #15). There is obviously a difference in the intensity of Hannah's reaction (snap/growl vs. bite), but the underlying motivation is often similar. There are a number of factors that contribute to the difference in intensity, such as the amount of bite inhibition that the dog has, stress level, past experience, and temperament.