Thinking Of Going Raw...

[Guest SpicyMom]

You should try to find a good local Korean market. I bet the ones in LA are even better than the ones in the DC area. I find great deals on chicken parts (69 cents/lb), chicken feet, beef and chicken liver, pig tails/ears/snouts, etc. Lots of cuts you don't find in regular markets but that are great for the dogs. You also have a number of mail order sources/farms in california you can check out. Check this link to find some: http://www.thewholedog.org/meatsuppliers.html I have a great supplier in PA that ships (especially good for rabbit and green tripe) but too far for you.

[seeh2o]

 

I was not popular at GIG last year for this reason: Five hounds, one poop bag.

OMG, you're killing me!

 

I normally go to the park with Carl and have no less than 10 plastic bags from the grocery store with me. This morning was like an epiphany...angels singing, spotlight on Carl every time he "pooped"!

 

In the beginning feeding a large quantity of bone will help keep stools firm. But once your dog is used to raw you don't want to feed chicken backs. They are over 40% bone. Keep in mind the 80/10/10 ratio. I don't even like to feed leg quarters, too much bone (around 30%). I buy whole chickens and cut them in half. If you find your dog can't handle the fat take the skin off.

 

I have actually done a balanced diet for my dogs (i.e. run the NRC numbers) and they get two meals of bone-in chicken a week. Everything else is muscle meat & organs. Any more bone than that and the mineral content is too high and is also unbalanced. For example there would be too much calcium and that affects how other minerals are absorbed.

 

Zinc is one of the minerals lacking in most raw diets. And too much calcium binds zinc. You feed canned oysters (about 6 oz per week) for added zinc.

 

Like I said, don't worry about too much bone in the beginning, but aim for it being less than 10% of the total diet. Feed as much red meat as you can. 5% liver is mandatory and the more variety you find for the other 5% (kidney, sweatbreads, pancreas etc...) the better. See if you can find beef heart (it is fed as muscle meat, not organs). Be aware that these things can cause loose stool, so introduce them slowly (an ounce or two at a time).

Thanks so much. I have a pound of cubed beef heart in the freezer, but haven't brought it out yet. The Primal has organs in it, so for now I'm thinking he is covered for that (?). A local grocery has ground chicken on sale for $1.29 a lbs, so I'm going to head over there for that and to pick up some beef as well. What are you referring to when you mention the NRC numbers?

 

You should try to find a good local Korean market. I bet the ones in LA are even better than the ones in the DC area. I find great deals on chicken parts (69 cents/lb), chicken feet, beef and chicken liver, pig tails/ears/snouts, etc. Lots of cuts you don't find in regular markets but that are great for the dogs. You also have a number of mail order sources/farms in california you can check out. Check this link to find some: http://www.thewholedog.org/meatsuppliers.html I have a great supplier in PA that ships (especially good for rabbit and green tripe) but too far for you.

I do have an Asian market right around the corner and when I've been to the meat dept I saw some....unique items. I think I need to head over there this weekend to really take a look at what they have. Mostly, I've purchased some great and cheap produce there as well as some yummy noodles. Time to forage for Carl over there!

[Guest mcsheltie]

National Research Council. They put together the daily nutritional requirements based on all available research, both public & private.

 

Like I said, don't sweat a balanced diet in the beginning. Get your dog acclimated to variety slowly, keeping their stools firm with bone. But after a month you should be trying for a balanced diet. You don't need to feed 80/10/10 daily. Best case scenario and the easiest to keep track of is weekly.

 

Some random thoughts:

 

Since his stool is good start adding a piece of heart in with your chicken backs and Primal. Gradually raising the amount.

 

Down the line add some fruits and veggies to his food. They do not "need" them. And a lot of raw feeders don't because it isn't the way they eat in the wild. But we are unable to duplicate what they eat in the wild. We don't feed brains or blood (the source for potassium in the wild) and 9/10th of the prey's innards. So we have to add these things in other ways. There is a lot of new research being done suggesting there are cancer fighting properties and other health benefits (yes, even for dogs). I would suggest keeping it simple, just give a serving of whatever you are having. If you make yourself a smoothie, save a little for your dog. If you have tomatoes on your salad, put some in your dog's dinner. No onions, grapes or raisins. Potassium is hard to get enough of, sweet potatoes have quite a bit, bananas have some too. And it is bio-available to your dog. I make extra veggies each time and throw them in the blender when I have enough. Then I pour them in ice cube trays & freeze. I give a cube or two in each meal. Once again, this is something to start doing once your dog is acclimated to raw and added variety doesn't soften stools. Doing this if you are a kibble feeder too!

 

If you have Aldi in your area check out their meat. Their whole stuff is usually enhanced, but they have good prices on ground turkey and beef (get the high fat). Google poultry suppliers and farms in your area. You can usually find unenhanced whole turkey and chickens for around $1/lb. You can find odd body parts at ethnic markets. You can also order all kinds of stuff from Hare Today. If you live in the midwest check out My Pet Carnivore.

 

In a perfect world you would want to feed slabs of meat (so they have to chew) and very meaty RMBs. But unfortunately not all of us can afford that. If you can... do it!

 

Talk to the head butcher at the big chain stores and ask about getting expired meat. I got some HUGE roasts that cost $30 for next to nothing. I just filled up two big freezers with prime USDA beef (roasts, steaks, you name it) for $80.

 

ETA: Nutritional yeast is a good source of B Complex and Potassium. NOW makes a good product.

Edited February 10, 2011 by mcsheltie

[Remolacha]

When you start adding the organs, if he won't eat them (mine don't do 'slimey' ), saute them briefly, or puree them in the blender and mix in with the ground!

[seeh2o]

Thanks so much for the tips. I was wondering about the veggies and fruit, but I won't worry too much about it - for now. I just got a tip from another board that one of the Whole Paychecks (Whole Foods) nearby has a pet frozen section and it runs $1.49/lbs. That's an incredible price, so I'm going to check it out. A friend who goes to the pricey butcher shop has been able to get deals there, so we are going to head up there and see if we can get a volume deal on their pet mix. They have pet mixes made of either chicken, lamb, beef or turkey and they grind bones and vegetables up into it (one of the formulas is a recipe from my vet). It's really expensive, $3.19 or more depending on which meat you chose. We are going to see if we can get them to bring the price down if we order 80/lbs together.

 

I went to Costco with very high hopes last night...high hopes were dashed. I was surprised the prices weren't better, considering the source. What deals they do seem to have are on cases of meat and most of those deals are found in their online store. I only have a little freezer on top of my fridge, so I won't be buying any cases from Costco anytime soon.

 

I dehydrate sweet potatoes at home for dog treats. Do they lose their mojo through the dehydration process? Would that help with the potassium? When I have bananas that are on their way out, I mash them up and freeze them and mix in some yogurt if I have it, then give it to the dogs as ice cream treats.

 

I have a feeling, knowing my boy, that he will eat anything I put in front of him...slimy or chewy! This is a dog who thinks his morning and night time Soloxine is a treat!

Edited February 11, 2011 by seeh2o

[Guest Lakota]

I love the banana yogurt mash idea. I am going to steal it. might even add somee powdered liver to it.

How do you dehydrate your sweet potatoes?

[Guest mcsheltie]

The sweet potatoes will still be good. Minerals don't go away when cooked.

 

Take a careful look at the ingredients in the mixes. Many have an inappropriate amount of veggies. This will cause loose stools. Some have a lot of other ingredients you really don't want to feed add to them. Many have wayyyy to much bone. Look for a mix that has the 80/10/10. It will be hard to find! You are better off feeding whole fresh food that you have control over.

 

Mixes are a fine way to start while you get your feet wet and gain confidence (and find resources :-) But you have a big dog who will appreciate being able to rip and tear at RMBs and fresh meat. The mixes will be sucked down in a second.

 

At some point you will want to get a freezer. That is the only way to do it economically.

[seeh2o]

I love the banana yogurt mash idea. I am going to steal it. might even add somee powdered liver to it.

How do you dehydrate your sweet potatoes?

I bought a dehydrator for $20 on Craigslist! I just slice them thin and put them on the racks. The dogs love them. I'd given Carl some of the store bought sweet potato chews, but they were gut bombs for him. Poor boy exploded in the PetCo parking lot after a M & G, he was mortified...it was massive and ugly!!! I had to run to the car to get several bags and a bottle of water to wash it down. The fully dehydrated ones I make for him don't bother him at all, fortunately!

[seeh2o]

I'm back from my whirlwind raw food adventure. I bought a pet mix from the good butcher shop, but it's beef has ground bones and organs in it, so I don't think I can give it to him daily. It was $1.50/lbs. I also bought some turkey mix that they make based on my vet's recipe. Then we went to Whole Foods, they sell blocks of ground poultry and, separately, ground beef. I bought some of the poultry mix. It was also $1.50/lbs, has no veggies or fruit. I went to a great pet store down the street from my house and bought a bag of Sojos grain-free dehydrated veggies and fruit to use as a mix in for the poultry and beef pet mixes. Now that I have it at home I'm not sure if I can use it as it has kelp powder in it. My vet had nixed using a dental gel because it had a seaweed base (kelp) which has iodine in it and because he is hypothyroid, could really screw up his thyroid. I might have to return the Sojos.

[Guest Ola]

Honestly, I'm not a big believer in feeding fruit and veggies to dogs. If you really really want to include them that's fine, but don't let it take place of what they should be eating: meat, bones, and organs. Certainly I wouldn't worry about it at the beginning - get yourselves into a routine with the basics in place and later add other stuff if you feel the need. That's the approach I decided on 6 years ago and we never missed the veggies so we never added them in.

[seeh2o]

Honestly, I'm not a big believer in feeding fruit and veggies to dogs. If you really really want to include them that's fine, but don't let it take place of what they should be eating: meat, bones, and organs. Certainly I wouldn't worry about it at the beginning - get yourselves into a routine with the basics in place and later add other stuff if you feel the need. That's the approach I decided on 6 years ago and we never missed the veggies so we never added them in.

Fascinating, thanks! I've heard of this, some people don't feed any veggies at all and their dogs do just fine. In that case, do you give your dogs supplements for things they may not be getting with pure meat, bones & organs?

 

Also, I've seen a lot of online calculators to determine how much to feed raw and I've plugged Carl's information into them, but honestly, the answer is all over the place...2/lbs, 3/lbs, 4/lbs per day. I don't want to under or over feed him, is there a true standard? He weighs 70 - 72/lbs. and he will be 8 years old on February 25! He is your average couch potato, gets a wild hair once a day and runs around, I walk him about a mile in the morning and there rest of the time...he is bed to bed

[seeh2o]

Another question...raw meaty bones. Meaning like the bones in a chicken back or leg? Beef marrow bones? Shouldn't I be worried about the marrow bones...can't they break their teeth on them? I had a friend who's ridgeback cracked a molar eating a marrow bone, it was a big expensive deal and still gives me pause.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Start with 2% of his body weight and adjust from there.

 

I do not feed marrow bones. They are a slab fracture waiting to happen. You want to feed bones with A LOT of meat on them. Bone being 10% of the diet is not a lot.

 

Chicken backs have too much bone (40%) Legs are too small for GHs. Instead feed whole chickens cut into halves. Pork, chicken and turkey bones are soft enough to eat. Stay away from weight barring bones of large animals (cow, deer, moose)

[seeh2o]

Start with 2% of his body weight and adjust from there.

 

I do not feed marrow bones. They are a slab fracture waiting to happen. You want to feed bones with A LOT of meat on them. Bone being 10% of the diet is not a lot.

 

Chicken backs have too much bone (40%) Legs are too small for GHs. Instead feed whole chickens cut into halves. Pork, chicken and turkey bones are soft enough to eat. Stay away from weight barring bones of large animals (cow, deer, moose)

 

Carl weighs about 72/lbs, so 2% would be 1.44/lbs per day and I adjust from there. That's a lot less than what I thought.

 

I thought I had heard that about marrow bones, it was terrible for my friend's dog, that's exactly what she had - a slab fracture (I couldn't remember what it was called), I think they just had to pull the tooth.

 

Would you please you give me more examples of what kind of meat cuts you are talking about for bones they can eat (like your example of whole chickens cut into halves). What would 10% be...does 1/2 a turkey neck count or 1 whole one?

 

All these questions, oy! I do appreciate all the advice and help!

Edited February 12, 2011 by seeh2o

[Guest mcsheltie]

What I mean is 10% of the total diet should be bone. My diet is for a week. For me a day is too anal and a month is too long. My dogs get two bone meals per week. Any more than that and they are getting too much calcium (and other minerals)

 

The other 80% should be muscle meat, with the remaining 10% organs. Half of the organs need to be liver, the other half should include as much variety as you can find. Kidney, spleen, pancreas, lung. Ethnic markets are a good source.

 

FYI, heart is muscle meat, good stuff! Feed as much red meat as possible. Beef, pork, venison. I limit poultry to RMB meals. Red meat is more nutritious. If ou have the option, slabs of meat rather than ground,

 

When feeding a GH think big! Easy to find at the grocery are: Bone in turkey breast. These will give you four bone meals. A chicken will give you two. Meaty pork neck bones. Whole turkeys cut into meal sized portions. Meaty ribs (short ribs can be a choking hazard for some dogs) There are other bone in cuts of pork, but I am drawing a blank.

Edited February 12, 2011 by mcsheltie

[seeh2o]

What books are recommended reading? I know here are ton of things on the internet, I've been to a lot of sites and it does get confusing. Those who subscribe to omnivore or carnivore beliefs. Supplements, no supplements, etc.!!

Edited February 12, 2011 by seeh2o

[Guest mcsheltie]

What books are recommended reading? I know here are ton of things on the internet, I've been to a lot of sites and it does get confusing. Those who subscribe to omnivore or carnivore beliefs. Supplements, no supplements, etc.!!

Kibble feeding is just as confusing (if not more so) There is an old saying opinions are like a--holes... I would direct you to books that I agree with So my advice is to read all you can, ask questions and form your own opinion. If you are like me, these will keep evolving. My advice is to learn all you can about canine nutrition and then apply it to raw feeding.

 

My opinion... dogs are opportunistic carnivores. They are not obligate carnivores and they are not omnivores. Their physiology alone shoots down the omnivore theory. When they are hungry they will eat anything that doesn't eat them first. But these things don't provide gold standard nutrition for a dog. Supplements are necessary because we have taken them out of their habitat and altered their eating habits. We are not able to duplicate their natural diet. So we have to add some things to make up for the environment we have put them in.

[seeh2o]

What I mean is 10% of the total diet should be bone. My diet is for a week. For me a day is too anal and a month is too long. My dogs get two bone meals per week. Any more than that and they are getting too much calcium (and other minerals)

 

The other 80% should be muscle meat, with the remaining 10% organs. Half of the organs need to be liver, the other half should include as much variety as you can find. Kidney, spleen, pancreas, lung. Ethnic markets are a good source.

 

FYI, heart is muscle meat, good stuff! Feed as much red meat as possible. Beef, pork, venison. I limit poultry to RMB meals. Red meat is more nutritious. If ou have the option, slabs of meat rather than ground,

 

When feeding a GH think big! Easy to find at the grocery are: Bone in turkey breast. These will give you four bone meals. A chicken will give you two. Meaty pork neck bones. Whole turkeys cut into meal sized portions. Meaty ribs (short ribs can be a choking hazard for some dogs) There are other bone in cuts of pork, but I am drawing a blank.

 

Wow, raw pork necks?! I saw them at the Asian market by my house yesterday and wondered about them. I can't remember how much they were, but I did wonder if it was safe to feed raw pork. It has a bad rep, no? That market did not have any turkey, but had lots of pork, beef, chicken and fish. What about raw fish? Too much chance for mercury and nasty stuff like that?

 

You must have a massive freezer!

[Guest mcsheltie]

What I mean is 10% of the total diet should be bone. My diet is for a week. For me a day is too anal and a month is too long. My dogs get two bone meals per week. Any more than that and they are getting too much calcium (and other minerals)

 

The other 80% should be muscle meat, with the remaining 10% organs. Half of the organs need to be liver, the other half should include as much variety as you can find. Kidney, spleen, pancreas, lung. Ethnic markets are a good source.

 

FYI, heart is muscle meat, good stuff! Feed as much red meat as possible. Beef, pork, venison. I limit poultry to RMB meals. Red meat is more nutritious. If you have the option, slabs of meat rather than ground,

 

When feeding a GH think big! Easy to find at the grocery are: Bone in turkey breast. These will give you four bone meals. A chicken will give you two. Meaty pork neck bones. Whole turkeys cut into meal sized portions. Meaty ribs (short ribs can be a choking hazard for some dogs) There are other bone in cuts of pork, but I am drawing a blank.

 

Wow, raw pork necks?! I saw them at the Asian market by my house yesterday and wondered about them. I can't remember how much they were, but I did wonder if it was safe to feed raw pork. It has a bad rep, no? That market did not have any turkey, but had lots of pork, beef, chicken and fish. What about raw fish? Too much chance for mercury and nasty stuff like that?

 

You must have a massive freezer!

USDA pork is totally fine.

 

Fish is really an individual thing. Some of ours won't touch it. Two love it and get EXPLOSIVE BIG D from it (but if I cook them (the fish, not the dogs) they are fine). The others like it and have no bowel problems. Sooooo I would wait on the fish a bit.

 

The bigger the fish and the farther up the food chain the more the possibility of heavy metal contamination. But for periodic feeding I don't worry about it. If I had a dog that was on fish as his only protein, then I would be more picky.

 

I am looking for another freezer! I just found tripe and organs at a great price. Plus I have two cases of chicken in the garage and the weather is supposed to warm up next week... EEK!

Edited February 12, 2011 by mcsheltie

[seeh2o]

LOL, whereabouts are you in Michigan? My mom is from Lansing, my grandpa from Ludington. I still have family in the Ludington area. It is a beautiful, beautiful little town, I really love it there. Michigan, as a whole, is really a gorgeous state. I went there a lot when I was a kid, it was my second home.

[Guest mcsheltie]

LOL, whereabouts are you in Michigan? My mom is from Lansing, my grandpa from Ludington. I still have family in the Ludington area. It is a beautiful, beautiful little town, I really love it there. Michigan, as a whole, is really a gorgeous state. I went there a lot when I was a kid, it was my second home.

Ludington is a nice area. We are in Lansing.

 

I found a freezer for $75 but now I have to figure out how to get it to the garage. The only snow maintenance done back there this winter has been the dogs making trails! The rest has turned to butt deep solid ice.