Jump to content

Parvovirus Outbreak In Stratford/bridgeport, Ct


Guest LRay82
 Share

Recommended Posts

Guest EmilyandSioux

If you go into public places get a booster on you grey. Usually only the very old, young and unvaccinated animals get it. The older guys build immunity to it. It usually breaks out in Texas in the spring and fall. It cycles and the vet clinics do to. I would be cautious but not too worried. I worked in a clinic that did high volume parvo virus treatment and never brought it home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you go into public places get a booster on you grey. Usually only the very old, young and unvaccinated animals get it. The older guys build immunity to it. It usually breaks out in Texas in the spring and fall. It cycles and the vet clinics do to. I would be cautious but not too worried. I worked in a clinic that did high volume parvo virus treatment and never brought it home.

 

Thanks for the tip - I don't know much about parvo, that's helpful. I am going to call the vet tomorrow to make sure we're vaccinated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Swifthounds

Before running out to vaccinate a dog for parvo, consider that despite the common term "booster" you can't actually "boost" the immunity that a previously vaccinated dogs has. Once a dog is vaccinated for parvo, that dog is either protected or not. The leading immunology studies show that the distemper vaccine has an actual duration of immunity of 7 years to life. Some dogs, even if vaccinated, with be low responders or non-responders. Vaccinating them again won't help immunity in those dogs.

 

Vaccinating triggers an immune response that actually lowers the immune system for a few weeks, making dogs more susceptible to disease and infection. I'd be sure to weigh my options thoroughly before subjecting my dog to exposure to disease at a vet's office in conjunction with the temporary immune lowering consequences of vaccinating. It probably won't help and it might harm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before running out to vaccinate a dog for parvo, consider that despite the common term "booster" you can't actually "boost" the immunity that a previously vaccinated dogs has.

 

But that's exactly what boosters and revaccinations do. A previously vaccinated dog doesn't necessarily have immunity. Most vaccines aren't good for life. Their effective term varies from vaccine to vaccine and individual to individual.

 

Vaccinating triggers an immune response that actually lowers the immune system for a few weeks, making dogs more susceptible to disease and infection.

 

If that were true, it would make no sense to vaccinate for anything, ever. When you vaccinate, the body makes antibodies ... ergo, immunity, not lack thereof.

 

 

 

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Swifthounds

Before running out to vaccinate a dog for parvo, consider that despite the common term "booster" you can't actually "boost" the immunity that a previously vaccinated dogs has.

 

But that's exactly what boosters and revaccinations do. A previously vaccinated dog doesn't necessarily have immunity. Most vaccines aren't good for life. Their effective term varies from vaccine to vaccine and individual to individual.

 

Well, not according to immunologists. With a modified live virus vaccine like parvo, the initial dose (recommended aroun 9-10 weeks) primes the immune response, the second (at or after 14 weeks) immunizes, and the third dose at one year will "boost." Multiple studies have demonstrated that the DOI for the modified live distemper, parvo, and adeno are equal or exceeding 7-10 years. "Boosting" annually thereafter with additional vaccines won't increase protection, though it does increase the opportunity for vaccine reaction and immune diseases.

 

In dogs vaccinated for Pravo, approximately 1:1,000 (more common in labs and akitas) dogs will be non-responders to the vaccine. Around 1:5,000 dogs will be non-responders for distemper and only around 1:100,000 dogs will be non responders for adenovirus (part of the reason why it's rarely seen in the U.S. where vaccination is common, despite the fact that it's rampant in Mexico). Vaccinating those dogs again will not change that.

 

Vaccinating triggers an immune response that actually lowers the immune system for a few weeks, making dogs more susceptible to disease and infection.

 

If that were true, it would make no sense to vaccinate for anything, ever. When you vaccinate, the body makes antibodies ... ergo, immunity, not lack thereof.

 

 

Why would a temporary immunosuppression lasting a few weeks mean that it makes no sense to vaccinate ever? That's throwing the baby out with the bath water. It merely means that it is counterproductive to attempt to vaccinate within a short period of time before potential exposure or before increased risk of exposure.

 

Vaccination with the modified live virus forms of DPA (distemper, Parvo, Adenovirus) creates transient immunosuppression beginning approximately 3 days after vaccination and lasting around 12 days (hence why puppy vaccine dosing is spaced several weeks apart). Recombinant vaccines don't create this immunosuppression, but distemper is the only recombinant vaccine available commercially.

 

But don't take my word for it. Ask Dr. Ron Schultz or take a look at the 2006 AAHA Vaccine Guidelines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Puppy vaccine dosing is spread several weeks apart because of maternal immunity interfering with the vaccine.

 

The AAHA Vaccine Guidelines you reference state "every 3 years or longer," not never. Probably because most of the studies have only gone out to 3 years.

 

Would love to see references for 7-10 year range studies. Would love to see references for immunosuppression as well -- have never heard or seen that.

 

 

For OP, if your dog hasn't been vaccinated in a couple years and there's an outbreak in your area, vaccinating wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

 

 

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Mom2Shiloh

If you go into public places get a booster on you grey. Usually only the very old, young and unvaccinated animals get it. The older guys build immunity to it. It usually breaks out in Texas in the spring and fall. It cycles and the vet clinics do to. I would be cautious but not too worried. I worked in a clinic that did high volume parvo virus treatment and never brought it home.

 

That depends a lot on the breed of your dog though; Pit Bulls and Pit Bull type dogs are for some reason much more susceptible to parvo. Caution is never a bad thing (by which I mean minimizing exposure risks; if you're around dogs with parvo change into clean clothes before contact with your dogs if they are Pitties.)

Edited by Mom2Shiloh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Swifthounds

Puppy vaccine dosing is spread several weeks apart because of maternal immunity interfering with the vaccine.

 

That's one of the reasons they are spaced that way, transient immunosuppression is the other, since anytime the immune system is suppressed vaccines are ineffective for their intended purpose (hence why vaccine insert specifically say they are not to be administered to sick animals. MAternal antibody interference is why it is recommended that one of the puppy vaccines be given after 12 weeks of age, usually around 12-14 weeks.

 

The AAHA Vaccine Guidelines you reference state "every 3 years or longer," not never. Probably because most of the studies have only gone out to 3 years.

 

Vaccine companies don't tend to fund studies any longer than they're required to because they make so little profit per dose. DOI studies are done mostly with university funding. Also, DOI challenge studies may require destruction of the test subject dogs. Destruction is mandatory at the end of any rabies challenge study, even if the dogs show no sign of having contracted the disease, so it can be a touchy issue.

 

No one said "never," though there are people who don't believe in vaccinating. AAHA made those guidelines prior to 2006 as a way to codify in their recommendations what vet schools across the country were already recommending, almost universally, for nearly a decade.

 

Would love to see references for 7-10 year range studies. Would love to see references for immunosuppression as well -- have never heard or seen that.

 

I take it you're unfamiliar with Dr. Schultz's work then. Multiple studies establishing the 7+ year DOI for DAP have been published over the last 10-15 years. I have some of them on hand, but they're in hard copy. A good bit of the published results of studies are published in journals available online, but you must have a current subscription to the particular journals to access them.

 

Look for "transient immune suppression" or "transient immunosuppression"

 

These might help:

Duration of Immunity

What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs

Canine Distemper & Vaccination

 

 

Taken from: Schultz, Ronald D, Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and What We Don’t Know, Proceedings – Canine Infectious Diseases: From Clinics to Molecular Pathogenesis, Ithaca, NY, 1999, 22.

 

Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:

 

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology

 

Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

 

Adenovirus - 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology

 

Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mcsheltie

Dr Schultz and Dr Jean Dodds have been working jointly on long term antibody response, lasting 7-10 years. They are covering this in their current seminar. Dr Schultz believes that immunity lasts for a life time. But he said they have go at it one step at a time.

 

I do not vaccinate adult dogs. I run titer tests every three years. None of our dogs have needed vaccinations for the past eight years.

 

Once administered it takes a minimum of two weeks for immunity to develop. That is the reason vaccines are spaced every three weeks. During that period there are varying degrees of immunosuppression, especially following multiple vaccines. Vaccines do not provide immediate immunostimulation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look for "transient immune suppression" or "transient immunosuppression"

 

Please post the links. If I don't have access, it'll tell me.

 

 

WHO, for example, documents that many (most?) vaccines confer immunity much more rapidly than two weeks, and that boosters ... well, boost :lol the immune response, providing enhanced immunity in as little as two days. I don't see immunosuppression mentioned in the credible literature anywhere except in noting that vaccines aren't always a good idea for immunosuppressed individuals.

 

I also don't find any recent scientific studies showing that most canine vaccines provide lifelong immunity. Schultz's own 2006 paper mentions and supports the "every 3 years" AAHA guideline and calls the longer terms "estimates."

 

YMMV, but it's worth noting that a lot more animals -- people included -- have been harmed by undervaccinating than by overvaccinating. Why do you think we have parvo outbreaks in the first place?

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

my saluki, azim, was lucky and survived parvo in the 1970's, prior to the parvo vaccine. it is not a pleasant disease to deal with. for some strange reason i just knew that the diahireah (sp?) he had was not normal and my vet was still the office, these were the days before there were e-vets.he was dehydrated in less than an hour. intense antibiotics, sub-q hydration(i went to the vet every other day for hydration at 7 am ), limited rice intake and strict monotoring of carbs/water intake( tablespoons full of each) and other meds pulled this guy thru. but it was a touch and go situation. his intenstines were damaged by parvo and somehow survived and lived to 12. i stick w/ the advise of my vet, innoculate and count myself very lucky that azim pulled thru. it was an experince that i never want to repeat. btw, he was 5 years old when he picked it up,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Swifthounds

Dr Schultz and Dr Jean Dodds have been working jointly on long term antibody response, lasting 7-10 years. They are covering this in their current seminar. Dr Schultz believes that immunity lasts for a life time. But he said they have go at it one step at a time.I do not vaccinate adult dogs. I run titer tests every three years. None of our dogs have needed vaccinations for the past eight years.Once administered it takes a minimum of two weeks for immunity to develop. That is the reason vaccines are spaced every three weeks. During that period there are varying degrees of immunosuppression, especially following multiple vaccines. Vaccines do not provide immediate immunostimulation.

 

Thanks for posting this. I must admit, when I read your posts, I cant resist checking out the link to the cattery - I just love Maine coons.

 

Please post the links. If I don't have access, it'll tell me.

 

Do your own research if you're actually interested (though I doubt you are). I didn't post to convince you to change your position, nor do I hope to. I provided the information I did for the benefit of others reading this thread.

 

WHO, for example, documents that many (most?) vaccines confer immunity much more rapidly than two weeks, and that boosters ... well, boost :lol the immune response, providing enhanced immunity in as little as two days.

 

No clue where this came about in the discussion. MAybe it's a grammatical issue.

 

I don't see immunosuppression mentioned in the credible literature anywhere except in noting that vaccines aren't always a good idea for immunosuppressed individuals.I also don't find any recent scientific studies showing that most canine vaccines provide lifelong immunity. Schultz's own 2006 paper mentions and supports the "every 3 years" AAHA guideline and calls the longer terms "estimates."

 

Yes, four years ago Schultz was indeed supporting DAP vaccination no more often than every three years as the AAHA guideline suggest, and as vet schools were almost uniformly recommending a decade earlier. The issue as far as how findings are phrased and results presented has to do with the FDA licensing of vaccines, which occurs only after testing has occurred in compliance with the CFR. Most vaccines just have licensing requirements. Rabies has both a licensing requirement and a legally defined DOI. For vaccines to be licensed, the CFR procedures must be followed and a challenge study conducted. The difference between the two is that the licensing for other vaccines means that they have a DUI of at least three years. With rabies, the vaccine has a legally established DOI not exceeding three years.

 

For the vaccine to be licensed for longer than three years, a challenge study of more than three years would need to be conducted in conformance with CFR requirements. That's time consuming and very expensive. As I stated earlier, vaccine companies don't make enough money off of the individual doses to provide funding for such studies. When they do occur, PETA and HSUS and other AR factions go ballistic over the dogs being kept confined fro the number of years for the challenge study. Unfortunateley, that's what is required by the CFR guidelines for the results to be acceptable. Serology results demonstrate that protection last the natural life of a dog, why would anyone fund a study to do a CFR compliant challenge test for longer licensing merely to establish a minimum DOI?

 

YMMV, but it's worth noting that a lot more animals -- people included -- have been harmed by undervaccinating than by overvaccinating. Why do you think we have parvo outbreaks in the first place?

 

That's a nice sentiment, and you're welcome to your opinion, but people and dogs alike that have suffered the effects of over vaccination, including autoimmune disorders, probably wouldn't agree. Really, we don't disagree that vaccines are useful, we just merely define "under vaccination" and "over vaccination" differently.

 

We have parvo outbreaks because it is not enveloped in fat the way the distemper virus is, and thus is very hardy in the environment. It's thus readily carried on shoes or clothing to new areas and is able to last through winter freezing temperatures in the ground outdoors.

 

We can vaccinate as much or as little as we want, but it doesn't mean that a vaccinated dog won't get parvo. We can vaccinate, and then titre to measure antibodies, but you won't find antibodies circulating in the absence of exposure. The only way we know for sure that a dog has immunity is for the immune system to be challenged. Short of that, we're just believe the vaccine "worked."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest SoulsMom

I am paying very close attention to this thread, as Soul has an auto-immune disorder and I'm not sure how I feel about getting him his boosters next year

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please post the links. If I don't have access, it'll tell me.

 

Do your own research if you're actually interested (though I doubt you are).

 

 

In other words, you don't have any.

 

Thanks for confirming that. :)

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am paying very close attention to this thread, as Soul has an auto-immune disorder and I'm not sure how I feel about getting him his boosters next year

 

 

 

SoulsMom, I would talk to your vet. If there are outbreaks or endemic ick in your area (as there is here), you might want to titer or vaccinate for the relevant things. While research on the core canine vaccines does support efficacy of at least 3 years for most dogs, "most dogs" isn't "your individual dog."

 

We tend not to want to vaccinate the immune compromised (for one reason) or the elderly (for another). But there are situations where those might be the animals who would be most important *to* vaccinate.

 

One thing I don't know is when (if ever) manufacturers stopped making the killed-virus vaccine for parvo, for example. The killed version evidently doesn't have the efficacy or longevity of the MLV (modified live virus) version. That issue wouldn't be likely to apply to Soul but might apply to dogs who are seniors now and who haven't been vaccinated since puppyhood.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate this discussion and will let y'all get back at it after a small hijack.

 

Why, in the very last paragraph/sentence, is it stated/implied that we people in the south don't believe in spay/neutering our pets and that because we have so many that we send unwanteds up there. What kind of crap is that???

 

Hijack Over

Edited by rycezmom

large.rycezmom_Sig.jpg.c7b7915d082b1bb35
The more I see of man, the more I like dogs. ~Mme. de Staël
Missing my Bridge Angels Ryce, Bo, Jim, Miss Millie, Miss Rose, Gustopher P Jones (Pimpmaster G), Miss Isabella and Miss Star

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest SoulsMom

I am paying very close attention to this thread, as Soul has an auto-immune disorder and I'm not sure how I feel about getting him his boosters next year

 

 

 

SoulsMom, I would talk to your vet. If there are outbreaks or endemic ick in your area (as there is here), you might want to titer or vaccinate for the relevant things. While research on the core canine vaccines does support efficacy of at least 3 years for most dogs, "most dogs" isn't "your individual dog."

 

We tend not to want to vaccinate the immune compromised (for one reason) or the elderly (for another). But there are situations where those might be the animals who would be most important *to* vaccinate.

 

One thing I don't know is when (if ever) manufacturers stopped making the killed-virus vaccine for parvo, for example. The killed version evidently doesn't have the efficacy or longevity of the MLV (modified live virus) version. That issue wouldn't be likely to apply to Soul but might apply to dogs who are seniors now and who haven't been vaccinated since puppyhood.

 

Thanks Jey, I really appreciate the info. I have talked to my vet. And while I agree with him on most things I'm still on the fence with this one. I guess in the end I'll have to continue to do my research and decide on my own. I have until January of next year to decide

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mcsheltie

Dr Schultz states in many of his articles that he is working toward proving puppy series provides life long immunity. Because he is a scientist he can only recommend what has been proven. Which is currently a three yr period. But he states over and over that his current studies of 7-10 yrs and concurrent work will prove lifelong immunity. link

 

link - written by Dr Jean Dodds. Be sure to read the first sentence in the paragraph labled Background. The rest of the article is reiterating the current vaccine protocols.

 

If you Google Dr Schultz you will find a zillion links to his statement - Dr Ronald Schultz, expert in immunology and member of the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines Group and American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Task Force, states that "If a puppy is immunized for parvovirus, distemper virus and adenovirus there is every reason to believe the vaccinated animal will have up to life-long immunity".

 

 

The following paragraph is taken from - "Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XI" -This is one of the most widely used textbooks in veterinary medicine. There is no link to share, but I am coping verbatim.

 

A practice that was started many years ago and that lacks scientific validity or verification is annual revaccinations. Almost without exception there is no immunologic requirement for annual revaccination. Immunity to viruses persists for years or for the life of the animal. Successful vaccination to most bacterial pathogens produces an immunologic memory that remains for years, allowing an animal to develop a protective anamnestic (secondary) response when exposed to virulent organisms. Only the immune response to toxins requires boosters (e.g. tetanus toxin booster, in humans, is recommended once every 7-10 years), and no toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. Furthermore, revaccination with most viral vaccines fails to stimulate an anamnestic (secondary) response as a result of interference by existing antibody (similar to maternal antibody interference). The practice of revaccination should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical examination or is required by law.

 

Dr Schultz and Dr Dodds are also assisting in the work of The Rabies Challenge Fund. RCF is working towards legalizing 5-7 yr revaccination for rabies. Their ultimate goal is also proving vaccination provides lifelong protection.

 

Dr Schultz is a breeder of Golden Retrievers. As part of his research his own dogs have been given the puppy series and a booster at 1 yr. He does yearly titers. His dogs have died approx 15 yrs. None from one of the above mentioned diseases and have had strong titers throughout their life.

 

I PERSONALLY would not vaccinate a animal that is not healthy. Especially a dog with any type of allergy or any type of auto-immune disorder. I have studied this subject for many years and I feel the risks far out weigh the benefits. But as Batmom says, discuss this with your vet. Research and make informed decisions.

 

5% of dogs do not develop a immune mediated response to vaccination. Parvo outbreaks are always going to be with us because of this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mcsheltie

One thing I don't know is when (if ever) manufacturers stopped making the killed-virus vaccine for parvo, for example. The killed version evidently doesn't have the efficacy or longevity of the MLV (modified live virus) version.

 

I looked up KV vaccines in my practice catalog. The current KV combo vax are KV for everything except Parvo which is ML. From the below information it is an issue of cost and efficacy.

 

 

From: Canine Medicine and Therapeutics

Each type of vaccine has strengths and weaknesses. Modified-live vaccines provide stronger, longer-lasting, and more rapid protection, including local immunity. They are less expensive to produce and may require only one dose to be effective. They have a potential to become active and cause disease, especially in a patient with a weakened immune system; to create immunosuppression, or to cause abortions in pregnant dogs. Careful handling and storage are required to prevent breakdown of the active ingredients.

 

Killed vaccines cannot become virulent and are less likely to be immunosuppressive or cause abortions. They remain stable during storage. They are more likely to cause allergic reactions, require more initial injections and more frequent booster shots, and do not produce local immunity.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

On the question of modified live versus ‘killed’ vaccines, Dr. Schultz is of the opinion that both have a place in the immunization schedule. Currently, there are no absolute answers.

 

He felt that because MLV vaccines replicate in the host, they more closely resemble virulent viral infections and generally produce a stronger and more durable protective immune response than killed vaccines. This "better" immune response has a cost: a decrease in vaccine safety. Certain modified live vaccines can induce immunosuppression, may shed into the environment, and may revert to virulence or cause vaccine-induced disease.

 

Killed vaccines on the other hand, are safer but require a large antigenic dose, multiple immunizations and often the use of adjuvants that can cause an increase in systemic vaccine reactions. Also, killed vaccines generally produce weaker immune responses with a shorter duration than the modified live vaccines. Sometimes the immune responses they produce lead to immunopathological disease at time of infection rather than providing protection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good info, Julie :) .

 

I would question whether Kirk's info is the most current, tho. At least for human virus vaccines, it isn't clear that the initial series does provide lifelong immunity, particularly if the individual isn't exposed to the virus for a period of time. Of course, people live a lot longer than dogs, for whom lifelong doesn't have to be as long (alas) ......

 

http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf discusses a whole bunch of human vaccine issues and outlines which bits of the immune system respond to what when. It's kinda thick if you're not used to scientific texts but not terribly long. At least in humans -- who again are not dogs -- there don't seem to be any issue caused by vaccinating when the vaccine might not be needed, except in cases of outright allergy.

 

I personally have no quarrel with the 3-year schedule. Beyond that, I'm reserving my judgement until more research is complete.

 

I do feel we (including myself) should rethink our attitude toward vaccines for older and immunocompromised dogs. Those are the very animals who would be most susceptible to a threat. The middle-aged, healthy, prime of life animals, not so much.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mcsheltie

Good info, Julie :) .

 

I would question whether Kirk's info is the most current, tho. At least for human virus vaccines, it isn't clear that the initial series does provide lifelong immunity, particularly if the individual isn't exposed to the virus for a period of time. Of course, people live a lot longer than dogs, for whom lifelong doesn't have to be as long (alas) ......

 

http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf discusses a whole bunch of human vaccine issues and outlines which bits of the immune system respond to what when. It's kinda thick if you're not used to scientific texts but not terribly long. At least in humans -- who again are not dogs -- there don't seem to be any issue caused by vaccinating when the vaccine might not be needed, except in cases of outright allergy.

 

I personally have no quarrel with the 3-year schedule. Beyond that, I'm reserving my judgement until more research is complete.

 

I do feel we (including myself) should rethink our attitude toward vaccines for older and immunocompromised dogs. Those are the very animals who would be most susceptible to a threat. The middle-aged, healthy, prime of life animals, not so much.

I do not have the most current Kirk's... each volume is over $100 and often they only change a few words here and there. The info I copied is still current and relevant, as I was trying to present Dr Schultz's studies and his work has not changed since Volume XI was published.

 

Human, dog and cat immune systems are very similar. Our pets have benefited from this. If it wasn't for this, not much research would have been done for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LindsaySF

Interesting discussion here! smile.gif

 

Some dogs might have life-long immunity from vaccines, we need more research to prove that. If people are in doubt about whether or not to give booster shots they should probably do titers first, the dog might not need a booster.

 

I haven't heard before that some vaccines can produce transient immunosuppression. Does anyone have any sources for that? I did a quick search on some scientific journal websites and the only article I was able to find (reference below) stated that live virus vaccination can cause a shift in the balance of immune cells (T-cells and neutrophils went down while plasma IgG and hemolytic complement activity went up), but does not cause immunosuppression.

 

Immune modulation following immunization with polyvalent vaccines in dogs

Veterinary Immunology and Immunopathology, Volume 94, Issues 3-4, 15 August 2003, Pages 113-121

Alois Strasser, Bettina May, Andrea Teltscher, Eva Wistrela and Hans Niedermüller

 

 

Most of my passwords for these sites are expired though, so if there is an article without an abstract listed I'm not able to view it.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Swifthounds

Interesting discussion here! smile.gif Some dogs might have life-long immunity from vaccines, we need more research to prove that. If people are in doubt about whether or not to give booster shots they should probably do titers first, the dog might not need a booster. I haven't heard before that some vaccines can produce transient immunosuppression. Does anyone have any sources for that? I did a quick search on some scientific journal websites and the only article I was able to find (reference below) stated that live virus vaccination can cause a shift in the balance of immune cells (T-cells and neutrophils went down while plasma IgG and hemolytic complement activity went up), but does not cause immunosuppression. Immune modulation following immunization with polyvalent vaccines in dogs Veterinary Immunology and Immunopathology, Volume 94, Issues 3-4, 15 August 2003, Pages 113-121Alois Strasser, Bettina May, Andrea Teltscher, Eva Wistrela and Hans Niedermüller Most of my passwords for these sites are expired though, so if there is an article without an abstract listed I'm not able to view it. ~Lindsay~

 

Check out this link I posted earlier:

Canine Distemper & Vaccination

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mcsheltie

At least in humans -- who again are not dogs -- there don't seem to be any issue caused by vaccinating when the vaccine might not be needed, except in cases of outright allergy.

 

I do feel we (including myself) should rethink our attitude toward vaccines for older and immunocompromised dogs. Those are the very animals who would be most susceptible to a threat. The middle-aged, healthy, prime of life animals, not so much.

 

Opps! I hit post before I was done!

 

I disagree with both statements. There is more and more evidence that over vaccination is one of the causes of the increase in autoimmune disorders. Allergies, asthma and a host of diseases. The adjuvants in vaccines are being studied. There is ongoing research about the correlation between cancer & vaccines. Cancer is an immune dysfunction. In nature a disease is introduced through the oral/respiratory tract. It is not injected directly into the body. One question that I have always had is why is the same amount of vaccine used for 1 lb Chihuahua and a 150 lb Wolfhound? They wouldn't be prescribed the same amount of any medication. But I digress :)

 

You are looking at vaccination of these canine disease in the same way as the flu vaccines for people (old, young and ill should be vaccinated because they are at risk) But they are apples and oranges.

 

What equates with Parvo/Distemper vaccines are Measles/Mumps etc... We get these vaccines as children and have lifelong immunity. Because you are old or sick you do not have to be revaccinated for Measles.

 

The flu shots are a different story. Regular flu shots are given to the young, old and sick because each year a different type of flu goes around. Tetanus has to given every ten years because it is a bacteria. But even that provides 10 yr immunity. There are no bacteriologic vax given to dogs & cats.

 

If you have an old or sick dog a vaccination could be the assault on their immune system that pushes them over the edge.

 

There are benefits and risks in everything we do. If we do too little or too much of anything there are consequences. Vaccines have saved countless lives, but over vaccination is causing countless problems. I am not a scientist, I am only a proactive owner who is very into researching issues that concern me. But when the primer immunologist in the country (arguably the world) has the same view point, I feel I should try to prod people into doing some research for themselves. The information is out there!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...