Muzzling And Etiquette

[Guest Parsniptoast]

Daisy has joined the family and I am now extra mindful to muzzle the dogs when we walk - generally they are very excellent. We have had some episodes where Daisy's exuberance has created some zealous barking and excitement but generally people accept that they are harmless and doing what dogs do in response to being excited. Daisy is just three. Being muzzled of course gives other dog owners reassurance.

 

So what about the many occasions when people on GT have said that if your dog is muzzled then it's not fair if other dogs aren't muzzled as they won't be able to defend themselves if they are attacked.

 

The reason I ask is that we occasionally cross paths with a man who has a Westie - a very excitable, yappy, apparently fear-aggressive dog who yaps and barks energetically as soon as he spots my three - even if they are right across the other side of the park.

 

When out walking in the recent snow this man said (as we were passing each other on the path) that if his dog bit my dogs then it would be my fault because Daisy and Reg were becoming very excitable in response to the Westie. I am still at a loss to understand how this could be my fault - I am probably missing something here, some way of behaving that is considered dog-owner etiquette and I was hoping that someone would be able to help me.

 

I have read on here of grey owners who would be prepared to hit and kick a dog who was attacking theirs - but what if that dog was muzzled? Is it OK to kick away a dog who is wearing a muzzle but is obviously too excited and needs to be calmed down? And when is it the right time to apologise for your own dog's behaviour?

 

I understand that in the UK these unwritten rules may be slightly different but I am interested to know - as I said I must be being a bit thick but I admit my ignorance and put out a plea to be educated

 

Thanks in advance for your comments

[Guest KennelMom]

Daisy has joined the family and I am now extra mindful to muzzle the dogs when we walk - generally they are very excellent. We have had some episodes where Daisy's exuberance has created some zealous barking and excitement but generally people accept that they are harmless and doing what dogs do in response to being excited. Daisy is just three. Being muzzled of course gives other dog owners reassurance.

 

I don't muzzle my dogs on walks. I just don't see the need. I teach them proper leash manners and that's that. If I feel like I have a dog that *has* to be muzzled on a walk for safety reasons, then I don't think I have any business walking that dog in public until I can control him/her. And I certainly shouldn't be walking them with 1-2 other large dogs....Perhaps a muzzle is wise during some early training sessions, but it would have to be very short term.

 

We pass all sorts of dogs, cats, bunnies, squirrels, horses, goats, etc and I expect my dogs to be able to handle all of these "challenges" with proper leash manners. That takes training, but it can be done.

 

So what about the many occasions when people on GT have said that if your dog is muzzled then it's not fair if other dogs aren't muzzled as they won't be able to defend themselves if they are attacked.

 

I think this is usually referring to off leash play, like at a dog park. However, I also would not muzzle on a walk, as a general rule, because if a loose dog were to attack, your dog is ultimately defenseless.

 

The reason I ask is that we occasionally cross paths with a man who has a Westie - a very excitable, yappy, apparently fear-aggressive dog who yaps and barks energetically as soon as he spots my three - even if they are right across the other side of the park.

 

When out walking in the recent snow this man said (as we were passing each other on the path) that if his dog bit my dogs then it would be my fault because Daisy and Reg were becoming very excitable in response to the Westie. I am still at a loss to understand how this could be my fault - I am probably missing something here, some way of behaving that is considered dog-owner etiquette and I was hoping that someone would be able to help me.

 

So...that guy thinks if his dog bites your LEASHED and under control dogs, that it's YOUR dogs' fault HIS dog bit them? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. However, I think we've learned on GT that when it's greyhound vs small yapper, that the greyhound will bear the brunt of the blame no matter what. So, best to keep your dogs' mouths off his dog at all costs and if his dog bites yours be sure to document it and report it to animal control. He must control his animal, like you must control yours.

 

I have read on here of grey owners who would be prepared to hit and kick a dog who was attacking theirs - but what if that dog was muzzled? Is it OK to kick away a dog who is wearing a muzzle but is obviously too excited and needs to be calmed down? And when is it the right time to apologise for your own dog's behaviour?

 

I'd have no problems hitting or kicking a muzzled dog that was trying to attack mine. No problems whatsoever. A dog can still do damage through a muzzle. I think you have to handle every situation on it's own...but, yeah...I'd kill another dog to protect my own (if I had to).

[Guest scfilby]

Basically what KennelMom said. I would not walk our dogs muzzled.

[Guest Amber]

I'm in UK, so know where you're coming from. A lot of our greyhound owning friends who live in the States have quite different ideas about walking (some, for example, don't walk their greyhounds at all - even if they have no behaviour problems.) People in the US I get the impression tend to have 'large yards' (like acres) which we in the UK most people don't have access to, unless you own a private field for your horse, or something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So for most UK dwellers, not walking a dog is not really a fair option.

 

I think it's a little bit strange to talk about leash manners when some of these dogs are high prey drive and usually never socialised out in the world before going into a pet home. How are people to socialise their dogs and teach them manners if they don't take them out in public.

 

In UK it is MUCH more acceptable to muzzle greyhounds out on walks - in fact, the main greyhound rescue charities recommend that all new greyhounds are muzzled in public (not saying I agree with that necessarily). Most UK adoption groups/rescues would not condone leaving a dog for 10 hours alone all day with no walker/break, nor would they agree to 10 hours spent in a crate all day, or 10 hours being muzzled all day.

 

So attitudes are quite different!

 

As far as the westie owner goes - he just sounds rude and not very pleasant. If he is deliberately walking his dog near yours, or it is off lead and running over to your leashed dogs, then HE has no etiquette. OTOH if your dogs are reactive in a bad way to small dogs, then you should do your best to avoid getting too close to them.

 

That's my opinion, FWIW. Though I do agree that if you suspect your new dog is prey-driven toward small dogs and is difficult to control, would be easier to walk him separately, as they do tend to 'pack up' on other dogs if one has that vibe.

[SarahsBlackPack]

I agree with what Kennel mom said.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I agree with KennelMom too.

[Guest Amber]

Parsnip, sugget you try posting your query on a UK rescue dog board/UK greyhound board.

 

Can guarantee that no one there will agree with Kennelmom. This muzzling business (when and where to use them) is totally different in US. In UK we sometimes use muzzles to protect small furries out on walks (yes because when greyhounds come into a new home they can sometimes NOT behave around small animals and NOT all adopters instantly can fix it).

[moofie]

Parsnip, sugget you try posting your query on a UK rescue dog board/UK greyhound board.

 

Can guarantee that no one there will agree with Kennelmom. This muzzling business (when and where to use them) is totally different in US. In UK we sometimes use muzzles to protect small furries out on walks (yes because when greyhounds come into a new home they can sometimes NOT behave around small animals and NOT all adopters instantly can fix it).

 

I agree it is much more common to muzzle greys that aren't small dog or other breed friendly in the UK. We were advised by our adoption group to muzzle for a few weeks on walks so we could gauge our dogs reaction to things and then decide if they were safe to be walked unmuzzled. I noticed that when our dogs were muzzled people would keep there dogs away from ours much more than when they were not.

 

I've never heard as many people having problems with dogs attacking as on GT so if i felt the area was high risk i probably wouldn't choose to muzzle either. My friend uses Halti head collars on her dog aggressive greys so maybe that would give you more control of the sharp end if you didn't want to muzzle.

 

The westie owner seems very rude and if his dog were to bite your dog it would be his fault not yours. I think you could only be at fault if your dogs were deemed "out of control" under the Dangerous Dog Act which is usually off lead and the westie was protecting itself.

[Guest KennelMom]

Parsnip, sugget you try posting your query on a UK rescue dog board/UK greyhound board.

 

Can guarantee that no one there will agree with Kennelmom. This muzzling business (when and where to use them) is totally different in US. In UK we sometimes use muzzles to protect small furries out on walks (yes because when greyhounds come into a new home they can sometimes NOT behave around small animals and NOT all adopters instantly can fix it).

 

So.....I'm somehow "wrong" because I believe I should teach (even my high prey dogs) to behave properly and politely and in control on a leash and not lunge or try to attack and kill small animals?????

 

Wow...yeah, I guess attitudes ARE quite different. To me, responsible dog ownership is being in control of my animals when in public. I have 19 greyhounds with quite a few at the Bridge. Believe me, I've owned and currently own some seriously high prey drive animals. And I even encourage that behavior/instinct because I take them lure coursing and WANT them to have a healthy, strong drive to chase. BUT, that doesn't mean they can't learn when it's appropriate to "get the bunny" and when it's not.

 

Oh, and I walk all of my dogs. The ones that would cuddle with a small fuzzy and the ones that would love to chomp them. They are all taught and expected to behave properly on a leash.

 

I think it does a disservice to greyhounds to chalk up unacceptable aggression to "oh well, they're just greyhounds and have high prey drive"...think how many people see a muzzled dog and won't ever even pursue owning a greyhound because muzzle = vicious. Heck, if they are so dangerous ON A LEASH that they have to be muzzled, why in the h*ll would your average person consider them for a pet around their kids?!?!?! Greyhounds can learn. To insinuate that they can't because of their breed does them a tremendous disservice.

 

Obviously new dogs are a completely different situation than relying on a muzzle forever and ever because the owner doesn't want to teach proper leash manners.

[DocsDoctor]

I think the muzzles are a bit of a red herring, actually.

 

More to the point, were all or any of these three dogs on leads?

 

In the UK, it's not 'etiquette' to let your off-lead dog pester one that is on lead. And if it came to a court of law, the one that was on-lead would be deemed to be 'under control' while the off-lead one wouldn't.

 

So if your 2 were onlead and the Westie wasn't, then certainly the other owner was well out of order. If vice versa, then you were in the wrong. No matter if your two were muzzled, they could still do it a fair amount of damage by chasing, bruising, etc.

 

If all three were on leads, then I'd say that both of you were at fault. Since you both knew your dogs were likely to kick off at the sight of the other, then 'good etiquette' would be for one or other of you to step off the path and let the other dog pass - preferably turning your dogs away, so as to defuse any face-to-face encounters.

 

Even better etiquette though, especially if this is someone you see regularly, would be to try and get the three dogs on better terms. Go off for a walk round the park together, dogs on leads, parallel walking, so they get to see that this is a dog that also walks, sniffs, poos, and not an electric hare... this is what some of my kind local dog owners did to help me socialise Doc with other breeds, I found some good mixed-breed obedience classes helpful, too.

 

Back to the muzzles. Yes, I started off walking Doc in a muzzle, that was what the RGT advised and it was helpful as he got used to the outside world and I got to work out what set off his prey drive. I always saw it as something which we would be able to graduate from, and was pleased when we did (after 2-3 weeks) if only it was so tiresome watching everyone shrink away from the 'vicious' dog/ 'cruel' owner. It was poor PR for greyhound adoption too, as Kennelmom says.

 

Obviously the US/UK cultures are different, two things which may be relevant here are that we seem to have fewer loose aggressive dogs in the UK, but our pavements are narrower with more cats etc out and about... only last week I spotted a squirrel just inches from Doc's jaws, sitting in a shrub behind a neighbour's front wall... I must say that even these days I was relieved that he hadn't seen it too!

 

I would hope that most retired greyhound adopters here in the UK would view muzzles as a training tool that can be dispensed with after a while, except maybe for those very few dogs that always remain ultra-keen (though in that case probably unsuitable for adoption, I know some like this who live long-term at my adoption group).

 

In our litigation-conscious age people do seem to be getting more and more pro-muzzle though, I was disappointed to see that the greyhound advice sheet from Battersea Dogs Home, no less, suggests they remain muzzled on walks always: breed advice

 

edited for grammar/sense

Edited January 20, 2010 by DocsDoctor

[BootsyCollins]

Parsnip, sugget you try posting your query on a UK rescue dog board/UK greyhound board.

 

Can guarantee that no one there will agree with Kennelmom. This muzzling business (when and where to use them) is totally different in US. In UK we sometimes use muzzles to protect small furries out on walks (yes because when greyhounds come into a new home they can sometimes NOT behave around small animals and NOT all adopters instantly can fix it).

 

So.....I'm somehow "wrong" because I believe I should teach (even my high prey dogs) to behave properly and politely and in control on a leash and not lunge or try to attack and kill small animals?????

 

 

 

I don't think they are saying that you're wrong. I think they were just trying to illustrate how different things are between the US & UK when it comes to muzzling.

[Guest spider9174]

I pretty much agree with Kennelmom. The only thing I'd add...

 

When I place a foster, particularly a higher prey foster, I recommend muzzling on walks the first few times the pup is out. I do so because many adopters are new to greys and new to dogs. I've placed a number of pups in the city where they leash walk only. I tell adopters this because they don't know what their dog's reaction will be to smaller animals. So, if they keep the muzzle on there is a second line of defense against a bit. The first line would be the leash that is attached to their hand to control their pup. After a few days or a week, I will tell people to "carry" the muzzle. I do this because people with little fluffy dogs may use retractable leashes, not be on a leash or go under the notion that "he's fine and won't hurt your dog." So, if the adopter carries the muzzle, it may alert other dog owners to be more aware of their own dog. The second reason I say carry the muzzle...well, totally self protection. People see muzzles and think, aggressive dog, as a female walking a dog at night, I see that as a bonus to deterring would-be attackers.

[Guest Shana]

Unless my dog is absolutely crazy about everything on walks, I wouldnt muzzle. Personally, I see muzzling as people getting the wrong impression. As mentioned, muzzle must mean agression, to most unknowing people (and I think a lot of people get the wrong impression of the humans too!). And I do not want my dog to be defenceless if another dog attacked; we don't have eyes on all sides of our heads!

That said... if your dogs are prey driven, or likely to get dangerously aroused (even if they're happy) around little dogs, I would go out of my way to cross the street, or move over with enough distance to let Mr. Westie pass without any interference. So far over that the owner can't talk to you aswell, because he does sound like a jerk.

Are you and Mr. Westie ALWAYS running into each other at the same time on your walks? If you are both on the same walking schedule, I would opt to go out at a different time when you are likely to miss him.

You don't need a jerk like that getting on your last nerve, and spreading bad rumors of your agressive greyhounds. Thats the last thing any breed needs: to be deemed agressively harmful.

 

But I think this is just demographic thinking (well I am Canadian, not American, lol)

 

I hope I am never in a situation where I have to beat a dog off my own, because if the dog is large, I am useless haha

[Guest Parsniptoast]

In the UK, it's not 'etiquette' to let your off-lead dog pester one that is on lead. And if it came to a court of law, the one that was on-lead would be deemed to be 'under control' while the off-lead one wouldn't.

 

So if your 2 were onlead and the Westie wasn't, then certainly the other owner was well out of order. If vice versa, then you were in the wrong. No matter if your two were muzzled, they could still do it a fair amount of damage by chasing, bruising, etc.

 

If all three were on leads, then I'd say that both of you were at fault. Since you both knew your dogs were likely to kick off at the sight of the other, then 'good etiquette' would be for one or other of you to step off the path and let the other dog pass - preferably turning your dogs away, so as to defuse any face-to-face encounters.

 

Even better etiquette though, especially if this is someone you see regularly, would be to try and get the three dogs on better terms. Go off for a walk round the park together, dogs on leads, parallel walking, so they get to see that this is a dog that also walks, sniffs, poos, and not an electric hare...

 

Obviously the US/UK cultures are different,

 

I must just say thanks very much for this response. I accept that my post was very uk-centric but this reply was just what I needed to get my perspective right. I agree.. it would be preferable for Westie-man and me as owners to work through our dogs' relationship with each other by walking them together but unfortunately the Westie owner is not terribly approachable.

I take my dogs to obedience classes but somehow we seem to have missed the lesson on correct behaviour *while* you are training your dogs and the stepping off the path and waiting is something that never occurred to me. As I said.. I was being a bit thick.

 

Thanks very much for this, it's much appreciated.

 

.... if your dogs are prey driven, or likely to get dangerously aroused (even if they're happy) around little dogs, I would go out of my way to cross the street, or move over with enough distance to let Mr. Westie pass without any interference. So far over that the owner can't talk to you aswell, because he does sound like a jerk.

 

agreed!! And my dogs aren't bothered by the size but by the excitability of the dogs themselves - it could be a lab or a GSD that is excitable and a King Charles Spaniel that isn't - it's not the dog size, it's the mood they are in that makes the difference. Mostly Reg and Daisy can't be bothered to play or communicate with others and on the odd occasion when they have it's been the other dogs' mood that has made the difference.

[Guest Parsniptoast]

Parsnip, sugget you try posting your query on a UK rescue dog board/UK greyhound board.

 

Can guarantee that no one there will agree with Kennelmom. This muzzling business (when and where to use them) is totally different in US. In UK we sometimes use muzzles to protect small furries out on walks (yes because when greyhounds come into a new home they can sometimes NOT behave around small animals and NOT all adopters instantly can fix it).

 

Unfortunately I've not found a UK based forum as knowledgeable and as helpful as GT. It's true that in the UK the RGT advise the use of muzzles for everything ( and I've generally followed this advice for grooming and nail cutting and wound healing etc when the dogs have recently moved in) but I have discovered that the muzzles are *most* useful to protect my greys from play amongst themselves and in situations where their form of interaction may be off putting to other non grey owners ie humans. I've said before that in many cases the muzzles protect my dogs from humans *because* by wearing muzzles people are wary and expect the worst. It sounds as though they are unruly and riotous when put like that but I don't mean that at all. Better to be safe than sorry I've found - and greyhound play is quite unique it seems.

[BauersMom]

Parsnip, sugget you try posting your query on a UK rescue dog board/UK greyhound board.

 

Can guarantee that no one there will agree with Kennelmom. This muzzling business (when and where to use them) is totally different in US. In UK we sometimes use muzzles to protect small furries out on walks (yes because when greyhounds come into a new home they can sometimes NOT behave around small animals and NOT all adopters instantly can fix it).

 

So.....I'm somehow "wrong" because I believe I should teach (even my high prey dogs) to behave properly and politely and in control on a leash and not lunge or try to attack and kill small animals?????

 

 

 

I don't think they are saying that you're wrong. I think they were just trying to illustrate how different things are between the US & UK when it comes to muzzling.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I would hope that most retired greyhound adopters here in the UK would view muzzles as a training tool that can be dispensed with after a while, except maybe for those very few dogs that always remain ultra-keen (though in that case probably unsuitable for adoption, I know some like this who live long-term at my adoption group).

High prey Greyhounds are deemed unadoptable? So do they live their whole lives at the kennel instead of being adopted out? That's just sad.

[DocsDoctor]

I would hope that most retired greyhound adopters here in the UK would view muzzles as a training tool that can be dispensed with after a while, except maybe for those very few dogs that always remain ultra-keen (though in that case probably unsuitable for adoption, I know some like this who live long-term at my adoption group).

High prey Greyhounds are deemed unadoptable? So do they live their whole lives at the kennel instead of being adopted out? That's just sad.

 

LindsaySF, these were the 'long-stayers' I was talking about: The Sanctuary. Not all are chasers, some have medical issues, others are anxious dogs who have tried home life but actually prefer kennel routine - if you click on the individual photos, you will see from the writeups how much thought goes into each case and hopefully, how well each hound is loved and looked after! And rest assured that many do eventually get to 'go home' - usually with a member of staff/ long-term volunteer who has can offer the right kind of experienced care.

 

 

Parsniptoast, I'm glad my advice was useful. We do meet some nasty dog-aggressive dogs round here when we are out and about too (usually bull breeds with chav owners - unfortunately, some dog-fighting goes on locally, even though that is of course illegal...). Where possible I'll just cross the road/ go behind parked cars to avoid an encounter, but when it's not I've always found standing aside and tucking Doc away with his bum to the snarly dog's face works well, even on a narrow pavement!

[Guest LindsaySF]

LindsaySF, these were the 'long-stayers' I was talking about: The Sanctuary. Not all are chasers, some have medical issues, others are anxious dogs who have tried home life but actually prefer kennel routine - if you click on the individual photos, you will see from the writeups how much thought goes into each case and hopefully, how well each hound is loved and looked after! And rest assured that many do eventually get to 'go home' - usually with a member of staff/ long-term volunteer who has can offer the right kind of experienced care.

I looked at the website. I didn't want to derail this thread any further so I started a new one: What Makes a Greyhound Unadoptable?

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest caiteag]

1) I do muzzle foster dogs on walks when we first have them. I am dealing with dogs I don't know and though the goal is training them to behave properly, I would rather err on the side of caution.

 

2) I often take Choo's muzzle with me on walks, though I only put it on her if we see a small white dog that is not being properly controlled by it's owner. If the owner has their dog(s) leashed and is obviously paying attention to walking them, I do not muzzle her. The reality is simple, while I have taught Choo that she is NOT to chase small white dogs while on leash, there are too many morons around here who let their small dogs run free. These small dogs will often come charging up to Choo and Ty (or any other dog in the park), and I do NOT want Choo taking a swipe at these little monsters. First and foremost, while AC here is pretty good, I don't want to take ANY risk that Choo could be labeled as dangerous and be put down. Second, I don't want any other dog to be injured, even if it is because their owner is a moron.

[Bevd]

I take muzzles with me when we are out with the greyhounds. Those who've 'known' me here for long enough will know that I do plenty of work and training with my hounds but the simple fact remains that here in the UK, off lead dogs are very common (my own dogs (apart from the greys) are regularly off lead for a run) and not every dog owner has the brains they were born with. Many dog owners don't think to recall their dogs when they see another dog on the horizon. They think it's fine to let their Fluffy/Prince rush over to say hello without checking that it's OK first. Mostly, my greyhounds would be fine with that (if a little miffed) but on occassion, an accident could well occur and I just do not want any of my dogs being responsible the injury or death of another dog. That's the bottom line.

[Guest longdogs]

What is the REASON for muzzling? In most of Australia all greyhounds must be muzzled and on-leash, except in those states where there is an agreement with an adoption program. In Victoria, adopted greys aren't muzzled but must wear a special 'GAP' collar and are not allowed off-leash except in a securely-fenced area. A loose racing grey with a high prey-drive is a menace and a muzzle is sensible insurance if it slips its collar. For most of us with our retirees it is not necessary unless they are running and playing freely with other dogs, when all dogs should be muzzled. A muzzle is also a good idea if you have reason to believe your grey is dog-aggressive, otherwise it is unecessary.

[Bevd]

What is the REASON for muzzling? In most of Australia all greyhounds must be muzzled and on-leash, except in those states where there is an agreement with an adoption program. In Victoria, adopted greys aren't muzzled but must wear a special 'GAP' collar and are not allowed off-leash except in a securely-fenced area. A loose racing grey with a high prey-drive is a menace and a muzzle is sensible insurance if it slips its collar. For most of us with our retirees it is not necessary unless they are running and playing freely with other dogs, when all dogs should be muzzled. A muzzle is also a good idea if you have reason to believe your grey is dog-aggressive, otherwise it is unecessary.

What about cats? Don't they count? I know that it's frowned upon in different parts of the world for cats to be allowed outside of the home but here in the UK, it is the norm. And although my own cats are safe from my dogs (or as safe as they ever can be), cats which do not belong to this household may well not be and I do not want my dog to injur or kill anyone's cat. To me therefore, a muzzle *is* necessary. It's nobodys place to say what is and is not necessary in someone elses life. We should be able to say this is necessary in mine but it might not be in yours - or this is not necessary in mine but it may well be in yours. You would hate it if rescue organisations had blanket policies and were not flexible and were not prepared to take each case of rehoming on its own merits so how come it's OK for people here to make blanket statements about what is right for others re muzzles?