Raw Feeding Basics

[kjw]

I currently feed some raw (mostly for teeth cleaning purposes) – I gave Twiggy a pork neck bone last night (not the first time), and today she had quite a few large-ish and sharp (!) fragments in her stool. Is this common with pork neck bones? I'm a bit concerned, and may not give her these any more (I think others here feed them sometimes).

 

I also give turkey/chicken necks, and just bought (and skinned-yech) some chicken leg quarters and drumsticks, as I would like to introduce raw as a larger part of her diet. To that end, I also bought chicken livers, and a package of chicken hearts and gizzards to supplement the clq's and drumsticks.

 

And now for a stupid question on the hearts/gizzards. As a 25-year veggie, I don't know how to tell the difference. It should be obvious, as I do know what a heart looks like, but in a 1.25 lb pack, I only found one bit that looked like a heart! Most bits looked like several pieces of some sort of organ connected by ligaments. Are the gizzards joined to the hearts and need to be separated out, or by "mostly gizzards" did they mean 99.9% gizzards?? As for why I care which is which – I want to save the hearts to use as the taurine source in a raw recipe for the kitties.

 

Pork neck bones are a bit dense if you've not been feeding raw for a long time, and also they do tend to cut the necks up so they have sharp edges. 99% of the time these raw bones make it through with no problems; and you will see less and less as your dog starts building up the enzymes needed to totally digest these bones. You might switch to riblets for a while, the bones are a better shape, and the riblets are usually in larger pieces and are more meaty. You do want to feed the meatiest bones you can find.

 

One of the best taurine sources for kitties is beef heart, my guys really love it. I still have to throw it in the processor for them, they are seniors and will not rip or tear into a large piece, but they really do love beef heart, and pork heart too. Most muscle meats are a good source of taurine, actually better than chicken hearts. Red meats generally trump the beige meats around here for nutrition and taste, too.

 

Here's a pic of chicken gizzards, which are part of the digestive tract of a chicken, and another pic of a chicken heart.

Edited July 19, 2010 by kjw

[TwiggysMom]

Thanks for the info, KJW!

 

I’ve only been giving raw bones infrequently for tooth cleaning/treat purposes, and I had noticed that Twiggy has to work a lot harder on the pork neck bones than she does on other bones.

 

The riblets do sound like a better idea – I saw the neck bones at the store and remembered other people here saying they gave them so I just snatched them up. I won’t go back to those until Twiggy is further along in her raw experience!

 

Thanks for the links to the pics of hearts and gizzards – as I suspected, “mostly” gizzards meant 99.9% gizzards . However, I’ve since read elsewhere (may or may not be reliable info) that gizzards (and as you said dark meats, especially high-use muscle meats) are also a good source of taurine. I decided not to leave it up to chance, and ordered powdered taurine to add.

 

 

Thanks again!

[Josie]

I'm reading on BARF and may try it with Tuffy.

What concern me is that I dont find many vets that aprooves BARF... why? Is there studies on BARF publish?

[Guest Ola]

I don't think there are any studies on raw since, frankly, who would fund them? The only one I can think of is the Pottenger cat study (I think that's what it's called). But personally I don't really worry about what my vet thinks - I don't ask them what they think I should feed, I go to them for medical advice. I don't even tell them what I feed unless they ask as in my opinion it's not really relevant. And if they tell me why they don't recommend it, etc. I thank them for their opinion but say I'm happy with my decision. I have only found one vet who was actually pro-raw but all of the other ones did not bother me about it too much once they realized I was happy with it. Normally the comment goes something like: "Well, I think raw is dangerous and would never recommend it. But your dogs look great so you must be doing something right.".

 

BTW, just a terminology thing but you may find it makes a difference when you talk to people and ask for advice. BARF and raw feeding generally refer to different styles of feeding. BARF typically includes fruit/veggies, ground meat, higher proportion of bone, and more supplements. Raw (or what some also call prey-model) has no vegetables, whole bone/meat, and typically only fish oil supplements, if any.

[Guest greyhound9797]

I'm reading on BARF and may try it with Tuffy.

What concern me is that I dont find many vets that aprooves BARF... why? Is there studies on BARF publish?

 

Ola hit the nail on the head - there is no multi billion dollar manufacturer to pay for studies on feeding raw. The only "proof" that it is safe, and the most species appropriate diet, is that wolves have existed for thousands of years eating raw and are still going strong.

 

Most vets don't support any type of raw feeding but if you find a good one, they will support your decision to feed what you choose. My vet is actually anti-raw but told me that as long as I have done my research and am aware of the risks (of which there really aren't any), she respects my decision. Vets receive something like 15 hours of nutrition education in college and it is all funded and supported by Science Diet. They also receive kick backs for selling certain brands so of course that is what they will push to their clients.

 

As Ola mentioned, BARF is kind of old school and was the first type of raw feeding, but is completely different from prey model which is what I recommend. I will caution you about reading up on raw - for every claim that you find that says it's a good thing, you will find 5 that say it is dangerous. People don't like change, they like things normal; they like convenience; they don't like anything novel. All I can say is, join the Yahoo groups Raw Feeding and Raw Chat, where you will find lots of support and assistance.

 

Sandra in FL

[Guest KennelMom]

I'm reading on BARF and may try it with Tuffy.

What concern me is that I dont find many vets that aprooves BARF... why? Is there studies on BARF publish?

 

For vets, I think it's a bit of a liability issue. As has been pointed out, there aren't any - or many - studies...the dog food manufacturers certainly have no interest in funding them. If your vet advocates a raw diet and your pet becomes sick for any reason that could even be remotely associated with a non-commercial diet, they are putting themselves at risk. There are plenty of studies to show commercial dog food will meet the nutritional requirements of dogs enough to keep them alive and offer longevity. That's the safest course to recommend.

 

We've fed totally raw and now a partially raw diet. Our vet's official stance is that they recommend a kibble-based diet, but have been more than willing to listen to us with an open mind about what/how/why we feed what we feed. Not every vet will have an open mind like that. Plus, I think traditional medicine docs (be they in human medicine or animal medicine) tend to be very "science minded" and want to see peer reviewed study type data in order to deviate from the accepted norm.

[Guest Swifthounds]

For vets, I think it's a bit of a liability issue. As has been pointed out, there aren't any - or many - studies...the dog food manufacturers certainly have no interest in funding them. If your vet advocates a raw diet and your pet becomes sick for any reason that could even be remotely associated with a non-commercial diet, they are putting themselves at risk. There are plenty of studies to show commercial dog food will meet the nutritional requirements of dogs enough to keep them alive and offer longevity. That's the safest course to recommend.

 

A vet would have no actual liability in that type of scenario, so I doubt that's the issue. They do not receive much nutritional training during school, and what little they do get is funded by pet food companies and AAFCO (the chicken that guards the hen house). Then there's the fact that raw diets can eliminate the needs for conventional and ongoing treatments for illness and skin issues associated with allergies and sensitivities to ingredients in kibble. As much as we like to think they put our dogs above their profit, they are a business like any other.

[Josie]

thanks for you replies at my question

it's true that 99.9% of time the first thing you see intering a vet clinic are piles of kibbles bag... usually Science Diet here...

DH suports my interesst in raw feeding for Tuffy. He was born and raise on a farm (slaughterhouse actually) and all the dogs were fed raw... and they lived on average 15 years old in good health. DH grand mother fed them veggies pells also...

I found a local butcher shop that sells grounded chicken carcass (ok I know many dont like grounded meat). The owners started doing this because they have Great Danes and after reading a lot about raw they embrace that feeding method.

This week I started to give Tuffy grounded chicken for the evening meals, he LOVES it, licks the bowl . for now I'm giving his kibbles in the morning to finish the bag and after I'll continue only raw... I'm continuing reading about the subject to find the "ideal" menu for Tuffy, I dont think there a single recipe for all dog... right?

[Guest Swifthounds]

Congratulations on trying raw. How is Tuffy doing so far?

 

There are general guidelines for feeding raw, but many things can be customized for the individual dog. Eventually you'll want to introduce some variety of meats (probably some type of red meat) and then some organ, and you will likely find that as your hound adjusts to raw the bone content in the average fryer chicken is a bit too high and you'll want to add a bit more meat or feed a few meatless meals to balance it out, but for now if Tuffy is eating and there's not vomiting or big D you're probably on the right track.

[Josie]

Tuffy loves it no vomiting and superb poop (like I never saw him do!)

for now it's just raw evening meals but I'll finish the kibbles by this week-end

yep the butcher said to go slowly to introduce new meat espacially pieces with bones. I tried to give Tuffy chicken hearts tonight and he did not wanted to eat it... poor boy had a strange look like saying "what the hell are those little things mom wants me to eat?"

But he did eat some sweet patatoe cubes

slowly we will get there

[Guest RWM]

Josie, raw ground meat is fine, and there is nothing wrong with including it in a raw food regimen. I use a butcher that caters to dogs. He provides all kinds of raw ground meat (beef, lamb, turkey, chicken, duck, venison, etc.), with about 20% ground RMB and a small amount of ground veggies, such as parsely and garlic, added.

 

But you should give your hound other items with bone, such as chicken backs, quarters, and drumsticks; turkey necks; duck necks,duck feet and duck quarters; and pork shoulders. There are many other items, as well.

 

I've even started to sprinkle some of my hounds' favorite kibble (Orijen Six Fresh Fish) on top of their meal ... not a lot, perhaps a handful, just enough to add some more flavor to the meal.

 

Oh, and don't forget 3-5 squirts of a good quality salmon oil, like Grizzly Salmon Oil. Also, perhaps a powdered supplement, like Hair of the Dog. I do both.

 

Try to experiment and see what tuffy likes. You will eventually find combinations that he prefers.

 

Good luck.

[Josie]

thanks RWM

yes I think I will have many experiments in the next weeks... I'm anxious a bit when I'm going to give Tuffy first chicken legs (or other bone, dont know yet what I'll let him try first)... little affraid that he will choke.. or that he wont eat it!

 

yes I'll get Grizzly oil too

[greylyn]

thanks RWM

yes I think I will have many experiments in the next weeks... I'm anxious a bit when I'm going to give Tuffy first chicken legs (or other bone, dont know yet what I'll let him try first)... little affraid that he will choke.. or that he wont eat it!

 

yes I'll get Grizzly oil too

 

I just started feeding my dogs raw about a week ago, thanks to the great advice in this thread! I have been giving them chicken quarters to start with and I sit with them to watch, just in case someone chokes! No, I'm not a worry-wart! I am amazed at how well they manage! The first night I gave them the chicken, Kieran (11 year old female)just chomped the whole thing up in no time! Otis (almost 9 year old male) is a much more cautious type and he sniffed, licked, and very carefully chewed it. He took twice as long as Kieran did to eat the same size quarter. Now, a week later, he's almost as expert as she is about chewing it all up. When they see that I've got their meal in my hands, their bums hit the ground instantly, with no cue from me - it's just "Oh, good, she's got chicken for us again!" It warms my heart to see how much they are enjoying their meals now. Kieran always has had good poops, but Otis has often had less than ideal BM's - now his are perfect and much less in quantity! We were at the vet today to have Kieran's corns done, so I told her what I was doing with their meals and she was very supportive - I love our vet!

[Guest Swifthounds]

Sounds like things are going well. That's great! - and you're not a worry wart for for watching. I wouldn't feed a dog any manner of meal when I was not able to observe. The worst choking event I've seen was with a very small amount of kibble in water, go figure.

[Guest RWM]

I just started feeding my dogs raw about a week ago, thanks to the great advice in this thread! I have been giving them chicken quarters to start with and I sit with them to watch, just in case someone chokes! No, I'm not a worry-wart! I am amazed at how well they manage! The first night I gave them the chicken, Kieran (11 year old female)just chomped the whole thing up in no time! Otis (almost 9 year old male) is a much more cautious type and he sniffed, licked, and very carefully chewed it. He took twice as long as Kieran did to eat the same size quarter. Now, a week later, he's almost as expert as she is about chewing it all up. When they see that I've got their meal in my hands, their bums hit the ground instantly, with no cue from me - it's just "Oh, good, she's got chicken for us again!" It warms my heart to see how much they are enjoying their meals now. Kieran always has had good poops, but Otis has often had less than ideal BM's - now his are perfect and much less in quantity! We were at the vet today to have Kieran's corns done, so I told her what I was doing with their meals and she was very supportive - I love our vet!

 

Hi, Greylyn. You will start noticing a lot of benefits from raw feeding. It is very good for your hounds' teeth. Pretty soon, you will have less worries about the obligatory trips to the vet for teeth cleaning and the sedation that goes with it. It is good for their coats. It aids their digestion. It is good for the toning and strengthening of the muscles in their jaws. And so on.

 

It's interesting how many Canadians post on this site, especially since, I understand, there is no greyhound racing in Canada. I am familiar with Revelstoke and have been there many times, as it was a stop in my journies into the Canadian Rockies for heli-skiing (Bugaboos, Cariboos, Monashees, Bobbie Burns, etc.). Beautiful country, and some of the best skiing in the world.

Edited August 5, 2010 by RWM

[greylyn]

Thanks for the encouraging words, RWM. Both of my dogs are enjoying the raw meals and it was especially nice when we went "camping" this weekend with our little travel trailer. I had bagged each days rations and kept them in the little freezer until needed - there was no turning up of noses when Mom showed up with chicken quarters for brekkie and supper! I have been looking at the idea for some time - I just wish I had tried it sooner!

 

Yes, this area has excellent skiing and as a matter of fact, the new Revelstoke Mountain Resort has the longest vertical in North America and is becoming very popular with skiers from all over. They are still working on things and some day it will be a year-round resort. Maybe you will feel the need to come to Revelstoke again to check out the new runs!

[Josie]

Tuffy ate is first chicken drumstick tonigh! he was quite intrigue about it in his bowl.. after few seconds he took it and went to lay on his bed to eat it

took less then 5 minutes and it was gone (omg the horrible sounds of raw bone being eaten I will have to get use to this lol)

guess I will have to find a way to keep clean his bed now since he does not eat meaty bone standing up!

[Guest Swifthounds]

Sounds like Tuffy had a good time. Have you tried leg quarters (the ones people BBQ on the grill a lot during summer months)? They're larger than a drumstick (because as the name implies, they're the whole leg quarter) and probably better suited for Tuffy's size. As he becomes accustomed to crunching his food his jaw muscles will really strengthen and something the size of a drumstick can become a one chomp item.

[Josie]

Sounds like Tuffy had a good time. Have you tried leg quarters (the ones people BBQ on the grill a lot during summer months)? They're larger than a drumstick (because as the name implies, they're the whole leg quarter) and probably better suited for Tuffy's size. As he becomes accustomed to crunching his food his jaw muscles will really strengthen and something the size of a drumstick can become a one chomp item.

 

yes I will go with that after, the drumpstick was just a introduction to raw meaty bones I gived him grounded chicken and veggies after to complet his meal

maybe I should find a plastic picnic tablecloth to put on his bed at eating time... since he wants to lay down to eat meaty bones...

[Guest greyhound9797]

yes I will go with that after, the drumpstick was just a introduction to raw meaty bones I gived him grounded chicken and veggies after to complet his meal

maybe I should find a plastic picnic tablecloth to put on his bed at eating time... since he wants to lay down to eat meaty bones...

 

If Tuffy insists on laying on his bed to eat then a vinyl table cloth or shower curtain (plastic is usually too thin) is suggested but he may not feel comfortable laying on it.

 

Many people feed ground meat and/or bones and veggies but it truly isn't needed nor recommended. Ground food provides no mental stimulation (it's like eating oatmeal - slurp, swallow and it's gone) or dental benefits, 2 very key things related to a raw diet. Veggies are not properly digested unless totally pulverized. Even then, they aren't needed if you feed a well balanced, varied raw diet. If Tuffy likes the occasional piece of broccoli or carrot then you can feed as a treat but don't let non-essential veggies take up valuable tummy space.

 

Good for you and Tuffy! Keep it up.

 

Sandra in FL

[Wonder]

Any suggestions on good place to get the meat or ideas on getting good deals? Trying to make feeding raw as economical as possible. Also, one of my pups is allergic to beef so I'm guessing that would go for the organs as well. Anyone know if that is a safe assumption? If so, recommendation on other sources for organs? She is also allergic to turkey.

 

http://rawsforpaws.com/store/

[Wonder]

I just placed my first order for chicken quarters (bought about 2 weeks worth at the grocery store to make sure Sparks would eat it) and ground beef.

My question is how do I know how much bone is in the chicken qtr? Do I still need to add more bone for the 5% or can I assume it's taken care of in the chicken?

[greylyn]

Judging by Otis and Kieran's poops, I think there is plenty of bone in the chicken quarters, Kari, but as a beginner at this, I'm very interested in what other people think.

Edited August 15, 2010 by greylyn

[Wonder]

Lucky's poop was runny today so I gave him a pork neck to see if that will help.

 

Lucky has gained 3 lbs since starting him on raw about 2 weeks ago. He's looking fantastic. He has one of those body shapes where you can see the last 3 ribs very clearly but no hip bones. I wanted him to full out a little more since I bring him to work at the nursing home and people always comment on how skinny he is.

[Guest Ola]

A search for chicken leg in the USDA nutrient database indicates that there is 27% bone by weight. They certainly don't have a shortage of bone in them.