Protein Losing Enteropathy

[Guest vikmb2]

Hi,

Does anyone out there have a male, adult greyhound diagnosed with Protein Losing Enteropathy? I having mine tested this morning for it.

Thanks,

Karin

[tbhounds]

PLE is usually linked to IBD. It's were the gut actually "leaks" out blood proteins such as Albumin and Globulin. I'm assuming your pup has had a recent history of vomiting and/or diarrhea?

[kudzu]

What type of PLE? Had always thought of is as a renal issue but was reminded recently that as tbhounds says, it can be a GI issue also.

 

I have a 12 yo male who has some sort of problem with protein. Had testing for liver dysfunction. There was a prob with bile acid test which is being rerun so no answer there. After that, some sort of protein losing problem is next. So we are not yet at the point you are. All I know is he either is not able to digest/absorb/utilize protein properly or he is losing it. He has no vomiting or diarrhea.

 

Sorry I cannot help. Hope very much you get answers & soon.

Edited May 9, 2009 by kudzu

[Guest vikmb2]

Took him to the vet today and he's still stumped. Protein levels in blood were normal, so he said that rules out PLE. In fact all levels were normal w/a slightly elevated creatinine level, which I understand to be normal highs for Greyhounds. Stool again neg; he's finished a month of acedopholus and I discontinued the Nutro food b/c of the input rec'd here to my earlier post. He's now back on the Purina One for sensitive stomachs, but I'm not optimistic. Poor dog, although he's happy and seems super healthy (he gained 8 much needed lbs since I've had him), the doc seems to think he's at least narrowed it down to the large intestine. It's getting so $$$ I don't know if I can keep on investigating, because I just don't have that kind of money. We're going on 4 months now of this, as long as I've had him.

[Guest zoolaine]

Sunny is not a greyhound, but he was diagnosed with PLE last July. His protein levels are pretty stable now and he is tapering off his medications. He is doing great for a dog that the specialists said would be dead in three months.

[ahicks51]

What symptoms is your dog presenting that led to the suspicion of PLE?

 

Are we talking weight loss + D, or...?

[Trudy]

What symptoms is he experiencing?

 

[Guest vikmb2]

I spoke w/another greyhound owner who suggested I have him checked for PLE, but that's the only reason. He's not losing weight, seems happy, virtually asymptomatic except he drinks tons of water and has to go outside frequently for small bowl movements. They come out like a cowpie - sloppy (sorry so gross) but not explosive, just like a puddle of poo. I can tell his stomach hurts him from time to time, and it's usually at night. Sometimes I can even hear his belly growling and churning. He'll whimper during these episodes and will need to get outside quickly. Since it's at night, and our yard is large and dark, I never know what he's doing since he goes to the back of the yard. I'm assuming it's to have a bowel movement, because there are several small, medium, and sometimes large 'puddles' in the yard next morning. So, other than these symptoms, he's happy and has a good appetite and plenty of energy.

[Batmom]

How much do you feed?

How long ago did you switch foods?

Any change in tummy/drinking/poop since switching foods?

Has he been on flagyl/metronidazole? For how long? Did it help?

Edited May 9, 2009 by Batmom

[Guest vikmb2]

I feed him twice a day 2 1/2 cups of dry kibble - was Nutro for sensitive stomachs, then Purina One for sensitive stomachs. No improvement thus far w/food changes/flagyl/metronidazole/acidopholus/added fiber. Tried 2 rounds of flagyl, 1 round of metro., 3 weeks of acidopholus and 3-4 wks of fiber. The fiber helped for maybe a day, then back to the same old puddles.

[MaryJane]

Have you tried a bland diet?

 

 

[Batmom]

Might be worth worming with Panacur, despite negative stool samples, if that has not been done.

 

Might also be worth trying a week or two of Hills I/D canned (NOT dry) or the Purina/Eukanuba/IVD vet diet equivalent (low residue or intestinal diet). Some dogs get on better with less fiber rather than more.

 

I know how frustrated you must feel. Glad pupper seems to be feeling well, tho!

[Guest vikmb2]

I feed him twice a day 2 1/2 cups of dry kibble - was Nutro for sensitive stomachs, then Purina One for sensitive stomachs. No improvement thus far w/food changes/flagyl/metronidazole/acidopholus/added fiber. Tried 2 rounds of flagyl, 1 round of metro., 3 weeks of acidopholus and 3-4 wks of fiber. The fiber helped for maybe a day, then back to the same old puddles.

 

Have you tried a bland diet?

 

Not exactly, but we did try adding a cup of cooked white rice to each feeding. Didn't do anything. Panacur was what he was wormed with - 3 times if I recall correctly.

[MaryJane]

Adding a cup of rice to kibble is not likely to make any difference so I might suggest that you put your pup on a bland diet for a few days (without any kibble). Give about 1/2 to 1 cup of cooked hamburg or meat chunks and about 1 1/2 cups of white rice twice a day. This is easy to digest and should help your pup settle his stomach but, it may not firm up the poop. To do that, switch the rice with cooked oatmeal for the morning meal. The oatmeal has fiber and will help to get the consistency of the stool more solid but, don't switch in the oatmeal until your pup has been on the hamburg and rice for at least two meals.

 

 

[Trudy]

It sounds like intestinal issues to me (I'm NOT a vet though)

For the rest of the weekend, I'd go with rice and beef or rice and turkey or rice and chicken - bland diet. Call your vet on Monday and get him wormed anyway. See if by Monday you have any improvement in him. He may not be doing well with something that is in the kibbles.

I will sometimes use oatmeal or mashed potatoes instead of rice when I'm feeding bland.

 

When Ryan was eating kibble with wheat and chicken in it... he had pudding poop.

 

[ahicks51]

Loose stool in the greyhound is hardly uncommon, and in itself it is not necessarily characteristic of PLE. Once the "other" causes have been ruled out (parasites and pathogens, etc.), it comes down to a big shrug and an "I don't know what it is" by the vet. It's very common.

 

You've already tried a number of the most commonly offered solutions. I would suggest a few more if the ones you have yet to try don't pan out:

 

1) Find a suitable kibble. You may need to go through a bunch of 'em. Sorry.

 

2) Add beet pulp. Get a big sack of it at the feed store, and add 1-2 tablespoons per meal. Soften it up with a little water about 3-5 minutes before eating- not soaking it, just keeping it from being hard enough to damage teeth. Many kibbles already have beet pulp added; Costco (Kirkland's brand), for example, already has some. Adding a bit more pushes stool from "not acceptable" to "eh- not bad."

 

3) Raw food or homecooked diet. Loose stool is caused by insufficient de-watering of the fecal matter. Precisely why this happens can come down to one of a number of causes, but based on both ends of the greyhound, too many carbs in the diet seems to be responsible (more on this in a second). Adding more fiber allows extra water to be dealt with in a more... pleasant fashion. The other venue- making sure the water doesn't end up there in the first place (more meat and bone) also works well. We switched our two non-fosters to raw food, and BOY did their stool improve.

 

It's interesting to note how many people have similar observations: take the carbs out of the diet, and the stool improves (be it from home-cooked, raw food, or reeeealy expensive bagged kibble or canned food). Similarly, greyhounds have awful mouths; take out the carbs, and the calculus, gingivitis, and the bad smell frequently go away. From these observations, it would seem likely that the breed enjoys high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diets, possibly from ancestry as hunting dogs, or maybe from track food which is often depleted in carbs.

 

A local vet with whom I spoke while in line at the post office noted he has had some success with Purina's veterinary probiotic called "Fortiflora." Never tried it.

 

Sorry you had to go through so many vet bills for what is such a relatively common problem with greys. I hope you can resolve it soon.

Edited May 10, 2009 by ahicks51

[Guest vikmb2]

Loose stool in the greyhound is hardly uncommon, and in itself it is not necessarily characteristic of PLE. Once the "other" causes have been ruled out (parasites and pathogens, etc.), it comes down to a big shrug and an "I don't know what it is" by the vet. It's very common.

 

You've already tried a number of the most commonly offered solutions. I would suggest a few more if the ones you have yet to try don't pan out:

 

1) Find a suitable kibble. You may need to go through a bunch of 'em. Sorry.

 

2) Add beet pulp. Get a big sack of it at the feed store, and add 1-2 tablespoons per meal. Soften it up with a little water about 3-5 minutes before eating- not soaking it, just keeping it from being hard enough to damage teeth. Many kibbles already have beet pulp added; Costco (Kirkland's brand), for example, already has some. Adding a bit more pushes stool from "not acceptable" to "eh- not bad."

 

3) Raw food or homecooked diet. Loose stool is caused by insufficient de-watering of the fecal matter. Precisely why this happens can come down to one of a number of causes, but based on both ends of the greyhound, too many carbs in the diet seems to be responsible (more on this in a second). Adding more fiber allows extra water to be dealt with in a more... pleasant fashion. The other venue- making sure the water doesn't end up there in the first place (more meat and bone) also works well. We switched our two non-fosters to raw food, and BOY did their stool improve.

 

It's interesting to note how many people have similar observations: take the carbs out of the diet, and the stool improves (be it from home-cooked, raw food, or reeeealy expensive bagged kibble or canned food). Similarly, greyhounds have awful mouths; take out the carbs, and the calculus, gingivitis, and the bad smell frequently go away. From these observations, it would seem likely that the breed enjoys high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diets, possibly from ancestry as hunting dogs, or maybe from track food which is often depleted in carbs.

 

A local vet with whom I spoke while in line at the post office noted he has had some success with Purina's veterinary probiotic called "Fortiflora." Never tried it.

 

Sorry you had to go through so many vet bills for what is such a relatively common problem with greys. I hope you can resolve it soon.

 

Wow, great info - I'm printing this off to give to the vet, who I fear has little Greyhound experience. Does anyone here know of a Greyhound savvy Vet in the Charlottesville, VA area?

Thanks,

Karin

[Guest vikmb2]

Loose stool in the greyhound is hardly uncommon, and in itself it is not necessarily characteristic of PLE. Once the "other" causes have been ruled out (parasites and pathogens, etc.), it comes down to a big shrug and an "I don't know what it is" by the vet. It's very common.

 

You've already tried a number of the most commonly offered solutions. I would suggest a few more if the ones you have yet to try don't pan out:

 

1) Find a suitable kibble. You may need to go through a bunch of 'em. Sorry.

 

2) Add beet pulp. Get a big sack of it at the feed store, and add 1-2 tablespoons per meal. Soften it up with a little water about 3-5 minutes before eating- not soaking it, just keeping it from being hard enough to damage teeth. Many kibbles already have beet pulp added; Costco (Kirkland's brand), for example, already has some. Adding a bit more pushes stool from "not acceptable" to "eh- not bad."

 

3) Raw food or homecooked diet. Loose stool is caused by insufficient de-watering of the fecal matter. Precisely why this happens can come down to one of a number of causes, but based on both ends of the greyhound, too many carbs in the diet seems to be responsible (more on this in a second). Adding more fiber allows extra water to be dealt with in a more... pleasant fashion. The other venue- making sure the water doesn't end up there in the first place (more meat and bone) also works well. We switched our two non-fosters to raw food, and BOY did their stool improve.

 

It's interesting to note how many people have similar observations: take the carbs out of the diet, and the stool improves (be it from home-cooked, raw food, or reeeealy expensive bagged kibble or canned food). Similarly, greyhounds have awful mouths; take out the carbs, and the calculus, gingivitis, and the bad smell frequently go away. From these observations, it would seem likely that the breed enjoys high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diets, possibly from ancestry as hunting dogs, or maybe from track food which is often depleted in carbs.

 

A local vet with whom I spoke while in line at the post office noted he has had some success with Purina's veterinary probiotic called "Fortiflora." Never tried it.

 

Sorry you had to go through so many vet bills for what is such a relatively common problem with greys. I hope you can resolve it soon.

 

 

I tried him this morning on 1c. cooked, drained hamburger and 1 1/2 c. cooked rice. He gobbled it right up, so we'll see. The vet called me back yesterday to say in fact that they'd been WRONG about him gaining 10lbs - in fact he's lost 4lbs, so there is some wt. loss w/this.

What exactly is a 'raw' diet?

thanks,

Karin

[ahicks51]

I tried him this morning on 1c. cooked, drained hamburger and 1 1/2 c. cooked rice. He gobbled it right up, so we'll see. The vet called me back yesterday to say in fact that they'd been WRONG about him gaining 10lbs - in fact he's lost 4lbs, so there is some wt. loss w/this.

What exactly is a 'raw' diet?

 

"Raw" food means raw meat and bones- chicken necks, turkey backs, beef heart, you name it. While there is usually some recoil at the thought of feeding poultry bones (amongst other things), know that COOKED bones definitely present a health hazard to the dog. Uncooked bones are a completely different matter.

 

Much of it depends upon what you can get locally. We're able to get many components locally on a price basis that is competitive with kibble. I just found a high-end supermarket that sells their turkey back for $.49 a pound, for example, and chicken necks run $.38/pound in case quantities.

 

It's a lot of work and there's due diligence in that you will need to do a bit of reading before taking the plunge. Some dogs won't even eat raw food; others won't go back to kibble once they've tasted it.