Weird Symptoms

[Guest cherinly]

Sorry this is long but I am so confused...

Here's the whole story.

Last Sunday my girl Lucy started throwing up and was in obvious pain because she could barely lay down. She spend most of the evening pacing around. After the fourth time throwing up, I called the vet and took her in. She threw up one more time before we left. The only thing that was different in her life was that I gave her the turkey guts on Thanksgiving and then a raw knuckle bone on Saturday in which she ate half before I took it away.

The vet said she probably had gastroentitis or pacreatitis (spelling?). They did an x-ray and nothing was caught in her or blocking. They gave me some anti-vomit medicine and she never threw up again. The bill was already over $300 and they said that if she got worse they could then do the blood work but that she most likely would get better because she was alert and otherwise healthy.

Then on Wednesday she had very liquidy diarrhea so I called the vet and they gave me metronidazole. That cleared up the diarrhea instantly. Then on Friday I noticed that her gums were pale and I thought she might be dehydrated so I gave her extra water in her food and some chicken broth mixed with water to encourage drinking. She hadn't been drinking much but her appitite was her normal hungry self.

On Saturday, I noticed that her gums were very pale yet she had no other signs of dehydration like when I pulled up on her skin, it immediately went back down. I called the vet and of course we immediately went in.

As of Saturday, everything about her was normal except that she wasn't really drinking much water and she seemed more tired than usual. And of course the very pale, almost blue gums.

The vet did an ultrasound and more xrays of her heart, lungs and intestines. But everything was very normal. Her heart rate was good although it was beating somewhat shallow, not full deep pumps. He did blood work and the only abnormals were her white blood cells, something to do with her kidneys, and one other thing that I forgot ( I should probably ask for a copy of the bloodwork). but he said that the abnormals were all borderline and that what they usually mean are always accompanied with other clinical symptoms and Lucy didn't have any of them. He said it might be kidney failure but Lucy has no other signs of it and it couldn't really be that.

He kept saying that he was completely baffled and that he'd never seen something like this. He gave me another antibiotic, amoxicillian, to fight off anything she might have.

The other weird thing was that her gums went back to a normal pink while I was at the vet. And now at home her gums go from pale one minute to pink the next.

So now I don't know what to think. Pale gums worry me and she is lacking energy to go on long walks and to play.

Any ideas?

[Guest vahoundlover]

Hopefully Diane (Burpdog) will see this soon. Sending many prayers for Lucy.

[Batmom]

Is your vet well aware of greyhound bloodwork differences? You might see very pale gums in anemia or heart disease.

 

Hope you can find the problem and fix it quickly!

[Guest cherinly]

I made sure the vet understood that her bloodwork would be different than other dogs and he assured me that he knew and when he explained everything after, he made sure to point out the differences between other dogs and greyhounds, so I am pretty sure he knows.

He also thought heart disease which is why he x-rayed her heart but it was normal.

He also said that she is certainly not anemic because her values (was it hemoglobin) were normal.

By the way, she is almost 4 years old.

[Guest mandm]

Could the other abnormal blood value that you forgot be low platelets?

[Burpdog]

It would be helpful to post the exact numbers from the blood panel. You can fax them to me and I can post them. Email me if you want my fax number.

 

I too am interested in her platelet count. There have been several greys in/from CO that have had problems due to tick diseases.

[Guest cherinly]

I will go see if I can get a copy of the bloodwork. I asked the vet about tick borne disease because before I went to the vet I did some research on the internet (and here on greytalk) and he said that he had worked in Florida and was familiar with TBD and that it didn't look like Lucy had that. he said that he was familiar with one form of it in Colorado and he could test for it but since it wasn't likely she had it due to her other symptoms (or lack of symptoms) and since the test cost almost $150, that he didn't recommend doing it, since I am in debt already from all the testing. Is this something I should go back and request? Is it something that she could have already had, and it has been dormant? We don't really have ticks where I am in Colorado (south of Denver) but she could have contracted something in her first 2 years in the kennels.?

[Guest Cris_M]

Did the vet do a PCV (packed cell volume)? It is a very easy cheap test that measures the amount of red blood cells in the blood. In a grey, it should run about 50-60 (much higher than other dogs). If the PCV is normal, then it would seem to me that the problem is circulatory rather than the blood itself. If the PCV is down, then you dog has anemia of some form and that problem needs to be addressed. Just seems that this would be an easy way to decide which way you need to focus your energies/money.

 

Meanwhile, lots of prayers for you and Lucy.

[turbotaina]

Insist on a tick panel. Racing dogs travel and are exposed to other traveling dogs. Just because your dog currently lives in Colorado does not mean that she has not been exposed to TBDs not native to that area. INSIST ON IT.

[Batmom]

"very pale, almost blue gums" would pretty much have to be a problem with either not enough red blood cells / hemoglobin, or some type of circulatory problem -- heart insufficiency, blockage -- or really really really bad infection causing septic shock. People can get symptoms like this with an E. coli infection.

 

Unfortunately, you can't rule out stomach/intestinal blockage from a single x-ray. You also can't rule out heart issue without at least an echocardiogram -- an x-ray or simple ultrasound can't tell you how efficiently the heart is beating.

 

Given her recent history, I'd be suspicious of that bone and a really bad case of HGE (hemorrhagic gastroenteritis).

 

Is she eating and eliminating normally now?

 

 

 

ETA: If the blood results suggest it, it's never a bad idea to get a tick panel. But if her gums are that pale, I wouldn't stop trying to reach a diagnosis -- you can't wait till the panel comes back.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Batmom

[Guest Winterwish]

I know it's so hard to get all kinds of suggestions,but I'd suggest an echocardiagram. An echo is approx. $250.

The thing with x-rays is they may not pick up certain cardiac stuff that might be going on.

 

If the sonogram was an abdominal,they can sort of take a look at the heart with that too,and maybe the vet did. But an actual echo,which is also a sonogram but of the heart,may be very important here too.

 

The beating of her heart being described as "shallow" is why this test might be a good idea. Usually that word is used for respirations. Wondering if the vet was implying that Lucy's heart sounds were *muffled*? (which is a very important symptom)

 

Sending get well wishes to Lucy.

 

 

(Oh sorry Batmom,I just saw your post about an echo too,could be very important here)

Edited December 3, 2007 by Winterwish

[Guest cherinly]

Okay, thanks so much for your feedback so far. The crazy thing is that Lucy is normal in her actions, she has even started playing again today and jumped all around when I got home. But her gums are STILL PALE!!!

Here are the values that I think are important. I compared them to Greyhound Blood Values that I found on the internet. Here are my questions.

What would a splenic mass mean? The radiology report states that an ultrasound should be done but I wonder if the radiologist knew that one was already done when the xrays were done? Wouldn't the regular vet have seen something in the ultrasound that he did? If there was internal bleeding, would that show up on xrays or ultrasound?

 

RBC: 8.65 (range for greyhounds 7.4-9.0)

Hgb: 21.7 (range for greys 19.0-21.5)

PCV: 68 (range for greys 55-65) So this is slightly higher

 

WBC: 2.9 (range for greys 3.5-6.5 although another site said 2.0-6.0)

Platelets: 169,000 (range for greys 80,000-200,000)

T.P: 6.0 (range for greys 4.5-6.0)

Globulin: 2.8 (for greys 2.1-3.2)

Creatine: 2.1 (for greys 0.8-1.6) so this is higher

Bun: 27 mg/dl (don't know what it should be but is higher than regular dogs)

Electrolytes:

Na: 147 mmol/l

K: 4.2 mmol/l

Cl: 117 mmol/l

Ratio between Na and K: 35 (range should be between 27-40 according to an addison's disease site)

 

Here is her radiology report that was sent just today to the vet:

"Previous radiographs dated 11-25-07 are compared. There continues to be a lack of serosal detail. On the ventro-dorsal radiograph there is a mass effect in the left mid-abdomen, not seen on the lateral radiograph. The stomach is full and the gastro-intestinal tract is within normal limits.

Thorax: there is generalized enlargement to the cardiac silhouette, as expected for the breed. The cardiovascular, pulmonary parenchymal, mediastinal, pleural and tracheo-bronchial systems are within normal limits, with no evidence of metastatic disease.

Assessment: Possible splenic mass, but would need to be confirmed per ultrasound examination. If presnt, then rule outs include hemanglosarcoma, lymphosarcoma, hemagloma, hematoma, extra-medullary hematopoesis, etc. Normal thorax"

 

I have other values too, it seems that he tested everything.

Sharon (one very stressed out mommy who may end up in the hospital herself due to extreme stress and worry!)

Lucy with the pale gums

[tbhounds]

Here's one thought--sometimes when a dog has a splenic mass that mass can rupture-the dog bleeds internally and the gums appear pale--eventually the mass clots and the color of the gums can reappear normal again. I would have the ultrasound performed--if they find anything concerning during the U/S they could aspirate it and send it in to the lab for cytology.

[Greytlady94]

"very pale, almost blue gums" would pretty much have to be a problem with either not enough red blood cells / hemoglobin, or some type of circulatory problem -- heart insufficiency, blockage -- or really really really bad infection causing septic shock. People can get symptoms like this with an E. coli infection.

 

Unfortunately, you can't rule out stomach/intestinal blockage from a single x-ray. You also can't rule out heart issue without at least an echocardiogram -- an x-ray or simple ultrasound can't tell you how efficiently the heart is beating.

 

Given her recent history, I'd be suspicious of that bone and a really bad case of HGE (hemorrhagic gastroenteritis).

 

Is she eating and eliminating normally now?

 

 

 

ETA: If the blood results suggest it, it's never a bad idea to get a tick panel. But if her gums are that pale, I wouldn't stop trying to reach a diagnosis -- you can't wait till the panel comes back.

 

I agree. Very pale, almost blue gums are saying something, and it is urgent that there be a diagnosis.

Edit to add.... How far are you from Fort Collins, and the university vet school?

vet school web site

Edited December 4, 2007 by Greytlady94

[Guest cherinly]

I live about 4 hours from Ft Collins but if my vet can't come up with what's going on, then I guess I should be taking her there. The problem is that I am soooo poor and have already spent over $700 and at least now when I return to my vet they aren't charging me the full examination fee. I know it's complicated for them because none of her bloodwork supports any hypothesis. I am going back tomorrow to have the "possible" splenic mass examined. I am hoping that is not the case because it sounds like surgery is the only option and I can only imagine the cost of that! But what else could cause pale gums with all other behaviors normal (perfect poop, eating normal, breathing fine, etc) and the blood work pretty good?

 

Would this place in Ft Collins be really expensive? What is it called?

 

The thing that is driving me the most crazy is that her gums are pink and fine one minute and later they will be pale. Help!

[GeorgeofNE]

Oh gosh, how scary.

 

This probably doesn't help, but we had an English Setter who was 8 years old. He seemed in perfect health, then one day he was down in the dumps. His only REAL symptom was pale gums.

 

Long story short, he had cancer of the spleen and expired on the operating table as they tried to remove it. It has spread all throughout his body--and I seriously mean he was NEVER sick.

 

It was very sad.

 

 

[turbotaina]

I'd have the ultrasound done. Here at a specialist hospital is costs around $400. Your vet may charge less. They need to rule out cancer of the spleen. I'm sorry you're going through all of this.

[Guest Winterwish]

Can you ask the vet for a payment plan? You've already paid $700. Maybe he'd agree to it. I understand how hard it is to try to figure out what to do in this situation.

[Greytlady94]

I live about 4 hours from Ft Collins but if my vet can't come up with what's going on, then I guess I should be taking her there. The problem is that I am soooo poor and have already spent over $700 and at least now when I return to my vet they aren't charging me the full examination fee. I know it's complicated for them because none of her bloodwork supports any hypothesis. I am going back tomorrow to have the "possible" splenic mass examined. I am hoping that is not the case because it sounds like surgery is the only option and I can only imagine the cost of that! But what else could cause pale gums with all other behaviors normal (perfect poop, eating normal, breathing fine, etc) and the blood work pretty good?

 

Would this place in Ft Collins be really expensive? What is it called?

 

The thing that is driving me the most crazy is that her gums are pink and fine one minute and later they will be pale. Help!

 

Click on this link, it is the University of Colorado Veterinary School in Fort Collins. link

[Guest beerdogs31]

I live about 4 hours from Ft Collins but if my vet can't come up with what's going on, then I guess I should be taking her there. The problem is that I am soooo poor and have already spent over $700 and at least now when I return to my vet they aren't charging me the full examination fee. I know it's complicated for them because none of her bloodwork supports any hypothesis. I am going back tomorrow to have the "possible" splenic mass examined. I am hoping that is not the case because it sounds like surgery is the only option and I can only imagine the cost of that! But what else could cause pale gums with all other behaviors normal (perfect poop, eating normal, breathing fine, etc) and the blood work pretty good?

 

Would this place in Ft Collins be really expensive? What is it called?

 

The thing that is driving me the most crazy is that her gums are pink and fine one minute and later they will be pale. Help!

 

Click on this link, it is the University of Colorado Veterinary School in Fort Collins. link

 

Hi, it is actually Colorado State U's Vet school (University of Colorado is in Boulder). I have heard really good things about the vet school here, I haven't had to go there yet thankfully! My vet is a graduate CSUs vet school here in Ft. Collins and is very grey savvy. Good luck, I hope you find out what is wrong with your baby soon!

[Greytlady94]

Sorry for the confusion...the link is the right school but I mixed up the names.

[Guest cherinly]

Update on Lucy...

Well, the vet re-did an ultrasound just to be sure and he is positive that there isn't a mass on Lucy's spleen. All of her blood work is good, she is eating and eliminating normally, and she is more or less, back to her old self. Her gums are still a light pink, not so pale now, but still pale compared to normal. The vet said the only other thing she could have is heart disease but the test for that is almost $400 and he said that it's only a possibility and since she wasn't having any symptoms of heart disease like collapse or intolerance to exercise, that we should just wait until she showed some other symptoms. Then we could test and begin treatment for it. He says that IF she did have heart disease, then treatment wouldn't start until she started having symptoms anyways.

I hope he knows what he is talking about. I believe him so far. And I really really can't afford anymore vet bills at this time of year. He reassured me that IF it is heart disease, then symptoms will come on gradually and she won't just drop dead on me. (That's my biggest fear, not being able to say goodbye to my baby).

 

One more question...Lucy is way over due for her dental and vaccines. Do you all think it is okay to do a dental in a week or so (since she has had all the bloodwork, it's much cheaper to do it now) or is it too soon since this all started two weeks ago?

[tbhounds]

I would hold off on the vaccines and the dental until you know her heart is okay. She would not be a good candidate for anesthesia until she's had her echo.

 

Also super glad to hear she doesn't have a splenic mass

Edited December 7, 2007 by tbhounds