Raw Diet

[Guest rocknrooos]

Good Day Grey Lovers!

Just signed myself up as a new member and look forward to discussions with this open community of friends.

 

Will jump in here with my first post!

 

Long story very short ;-), about 1 1/2 months ago, I began to assimilate Hennesey onto a raw food diet regimen that includes various protein/meat sources, veggies and a little fruit that have been pureed (for better digestion), sardines or salmon, and eggs. I know with raw meat, bacteria is always a concern, as is what the animal was fed and how it was handled and processed. Some issues I am researching include what if any wash was used on the carcass to kill bacteria and was the animal grass or grain fed. For those of you who have experience feeding raw, have these been your concerns as well when feeding your dog? Do you source your meat from special grocers, butchers or farms? Also wondering if any members have read the book Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats by Karen Becker, DVM?

[Trihounds]

Welcome to GT! Hopefully the transition to raw was painless for you and your pups.

 

Let me give you our personal experience in response to your questions. We have 4 raw fed hounds;

 

- we worry about nothing except the freshness of the meat we buy. All of it is human grade so I'm assuming it's good enough for the hounds. Bacteria has not been an issue for the hounds.

- we buy wherever we can get the best price and look for 'manager specials'.

- we've done main stream grocery stores (though I can't stand buying meat in Styrofoam packaging), butchers, and a farmer (and we then had the meat cut/wrapped).

- my only concern feeding raw is to not oversize a bone - ie: make sure it is smaller than a chicken drumstick, and even then, 2 of our 4 tend to vomit up undigested bits. We don't give extra large turkey necks and stay away from small chicken necks as well.

 

Our hounds are thriving on raw so we'll continue as long as we can.

 

You have a great variety and it looks like a good menu (thought we don't give veggies or fruit, personally).

 

Enjoy GT.

 

Here is a good thread from Greyhound9797 on raw feeding:

 

Raw Feeding Basics

 

[Guest DragonflyDM]

Welcome to GT! Hopefully the transition to raw was painless for you and your pups.

 

Let me give you our personal experience in response to your questions. We have 4 raw fed hounds;

 

- we worry about nothing except the freshness of the meat we buy. All of it is human grade so I'm assuming it's good enough for the hounds. Bacteria has not been an issue for the hounds.

- we buy wherever we can get the best price and look for 'manager specials'.

- we've done main stream grocery stores (though I can't stand buying meat in Styrofoam packaging), butchers, and a farmer (and we then had the meat cut/wrapped).

- my only concern feeding raw is to not oversize a bone - ie: make sure it is smaller than a chicken drumstick, and even then, 2 of our 4 tend to vomit up undigested bits. We don't give extra large turkey necks and stay away from small chicken necks as well.

 

Our hounds are thriving on raw so we'll continue as long as we can.

 

You have a great variety and it looks like a good menu (thought we don't give veggies or fruit, personally).

 

Enjoy GT.

 

Here is a good thread from Greyhound9797 on raw feeding:

 

Raw Feeding Basics

 

 

Yup…exactly what was said here other than I DO feed turkey necks because Boomer loves them. Can’t say enough about manager specials. That is what makes the whole thing financially possible.

[Guest rocknrooos]

Hi folks, thanks for your input! Well , I see you guys are WAY ahead of me in terms of taking the BARF plunge with your hounds! I'm still mostly cooking Hennesey's chicken and turkey meat. Never thought I'd be saying this but since reading several posts in Greytalk and elsewhere, think I'm going to try raw meaty bones with him. How have you determined how much bones to give per day....are you using the 3% of body weight rule or some other calculation? What about supplements, are you adding any to balance the diet?

[RedHead]

Ideally, I would love to feed grass fed or wild meat, but that is not an option financially (I can get some wild meat occasionally). I have fed raw for 10+ years with human grade meat and have never had a problem with bacteria. A healthy dog should not have a problem, and your greyhound almost certainly ate some raw meat at the racetrack.

 

I don't weigh meat anymore, I just sort of feed by eyeballing amounts. I do find my greyhound eats quite a bit more than my old dog (a malamute) even though they are the same weight. I probably feed between 2-3 lbs a day, but I also mix it in with some kibble and leftovers on most days. I add salmon oil, but that is it for supplements.

[sweetdogs]

Welcome to GT! And the dark side. ;-)

 

I've been feeding raw for so long , not too much scares me. lol I use common sense obviously but don't sweat the small stuff.

I don't measure much anymore but did start with the 2-3% of body weight. Now I eyeball the hound to see if I need to adjust. If I was feeding a turkey neck or chicken back, I'd weigh that & fill in with the other stuff.

I don't use supps other than fish oil & glucosamine.

Hennessy is a lucky boy!

[seeh2o]

I took the "raw plunge" (that doesn't quite sound right, does it? ) a year ago last Feb. I haven't killed them yet! They both look amazing, blood work is better than it ever was, and it was good before. Beautiful coats, no digestive problems. Neither on has had the big D since I've had them on raw <quickly knocking on wood...which just sent Claire into a barking frenzy and they both ran outside>.

 

I belong to two groups, one who orders from GreenTripe.com quarterly where I order their Xkaliber blend, and a group out in the desert who gets soon to expire human grade meat from two markets. The soon to expire meat is frozen right away and we can go to her place and pick what we like from the freezers and load up a normal sized grocery bag. The cost is $7 per bag. It is an amazing deal, I've been able to get turkey, beef, pork and lamb. I have to stay away from chicken as it doesn't agree with Carl. I also get a petmix from a local butcher who only sells organic and natural meats. He grinds up organ meat and bones into a special petmix blend. I also give duck or turkey necks, Cornish hens and chicken feet. I try to rotate the raw meaty bones. I make big vat of veggie/fruit puree once or twice a month, freezing what I don't need for the week.

 

It all seemed very daunting and scary in the beginning, but I had a lot of support from a friend who became my mentor in all things raw feeding and I had a lot of help and advice from my vet who is holistic and feeds her dogs raw (a rarity, I know). It's now such a routine that it takes no time at all...except for making the veggie/fruit puree, I have to admit, I really hate making that stuff up - I find it tedious! Try to find someone local who feeds raw and who you trust and let them be your guide. It makes it a lot easier to have that support and guidance.

Edited May 6, 2012 by seeh2o

[Guest greyhound9797]

Hi folks, thanks for your input! Well , I see you guys are WAY ahead of me in terms of taking the BARF plunge with your hounds! I'm still mostly cooking Hennesey's chicken and turkey meat. Never thought I'd be saying this but since reading several posts in Greytalk and elsewhere, think I'm going to try raw meaty bones with him. How have you determined how much bones to give per day....are you using the 3% of body weight rule or some other calculation? What about supplements, are you adding any to balance the diet?

Your hounds will be so grateful to you!

 

"BARF" and "raw meaty bones" are kind of archaic terms and many people use BARF anytime they're talking about feeding a raw diet (though BARF usually includes veggies, fruits and dairy). I feed a prey model diet which is strictly parts of an animal limited to meat, bones and organs. When I first started raw I fed the veggie "mush/slop" that original BARFers feed then I did more research and concluded that prey model is the most species appropriate.

 

No reason why you can't jump in feet first and stop cooking Hennesey's food. It's scary but I promise he'll take to eating raw like a fish takes to water.

 

The 80/10/10 ratio and 3-5% of ideal adult body weight are simply a starting point and should be adjusted according to each individual dog. My first grey did perfect on 80/10/10 (80% meat, 10% edible bone and 10% organ) but MeMe needs around 20% bone or her stool is very runny. She also can't tolerate as much heart as Piper did so she only gets 2 days of heart meals.

 

It's a bit gross at times, but watching your dog poop is the best guide in determining how well he's handling the diet. If his stool is soft he needs more bone; if it's very hard and dry he needs a bit less. I promise that you won't hurt him while you're fine tuning his meals.

 

The only supplement I gave Piper was fish oil (I bought Grizzly Salmon Oil from an independent pet supply store) but MeMe doesn't get any.

 

Stick around and ask questions. There are different ways to feed raw so do what you feel comfortable with. You can change at anytime like I did (just don't go back to that kibble stuff! ) Good luck and welcome to GT!

 

Sandra in FL

[Guest rocknrooos]

Wonderful reading your input on RAW , thanks! With respect to the 80/10/10, how does one figure THAT out if feeding meaty bones? In other words, how do you calculate the amount of meat and the amount of bone on say a chicken back? Are you feeding organs every day? I see some folks feed slop/ground bones & meat. Is this personal preference? Of course dogs gnawing on a bone is entertaining and let's not forget the added benefit of having the teeth cleaned! Fun Fun!

[Guest greyhound9797]

Wonderful reading your input on RAW , thanks! With respect to the 80/10/10, how does one figure THAT out if feeding meaty bones? In other words, how do you calculate the amount of meat and the amount of bone on say a chicken back? Are you feeding organs every day? I see some folks feed slop/ground bones & meat. Is this personal preference? Of course dogs gnawing on a bone is entertaining and let's not forget the added benefit of having the teeth cleaned! Fun Fun!

 

Not sure if you read the thread that trihounds recommended but there is a link to the USDA website in the first post. Their site gives you a breakdown on nutritional content, including bone, so once you know how much bone is in what you're feeding you can determine the percentage your dog is eating. It sounds a bit confusing but it's not, I promise. Once you become comfortable feeding raw you'll be able to eyeball and guesstimate things and your anxiety about doing something "wrong" will decrease. It's not an exact science. A chicken quarter is a good starting point so watch the stools and see how your dog responds to that amount of bone.

 

I feed organ very sporadically. It's such a small part of the diet (5% liver and 5% other organ) that I find it easier to feed it in one or two meals in the course of a week.

 

Yes, slop and ground meat is a preference. You're right about the mental and dental benefits of eating a big piece of meat and bone. I do have ground turkey on hand but I only feed it if I forget to take something out of the freezer to thaw (ground thaws much quicker than a whole chicken). Usually the slop/glop/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is veggies and/or fruit and/or dairy and/or some supplements but I don't feed any of that.

 

Sandra in FL

[Guest DragonflyDM]

I would like to add a few small observations from my feeding raw--

 

1. I feed organs as treats. They need them and love them, and they are high value treats to get them motivated for training.

2. Purchasing meat. I purchase on the manager's specials-- but I have learned that my dog does not process pork well. So I would not give a variety of meats all at once, but shift month to month to see what settles well in the dog belly.

3. Bones. I am very cautious of beef/pork bones. They don't have the same "give" as fowl bones. Some Butchers cut the bone with very sharp edges. I tend to separate bone from meat when I am dealing with beef and beef like mammals.

4. I do NOT feed ground meat unless I see them grind it in front of me.

[BootsyCollins]

We transitioned Bootsy to raw just a few weeks ago. We are thrilled with the results so far. Thanks to Neylasmom, who held my hand and got me started, and thanks to all of you raw feeders who are so willing to repeat and repeat and repeat the same information in thread after thread for us newbies.

 

He is still on chicken quarters. I'm trying to find a good source for organs and other meats. I'm going to talk to the beef purveyor at the farmers market this weekend and ask about the good stuff I could get from them - like heart and liver maybe? How & where do you all find organs?

 

What should we move to next?

 

He eats 1.5 chicken quarters each meal. This morning, he swallowed the leg whole and sort of chomped up the quarter. He eats so fast - he's finished the quarter before he used to finish a bowl of kibble. Should this concern me?

[Guest DragonflyDM]

Don't forget to get some sort of calcium. I use vitamins, but someone told me ground up egg shells was a cheaper way to go. I know that eggs is one of the best sources of protien for them.

[Guest rocknrooos]

Dragonfly, I didn't think a calcium supplement was necessary with raw meaty bones? I can always find chicken liver in my grocers' freezer, so you may want to check there. Fresh liver would probably be available at your local farmers market. I was able to order beef heart from the butcher at my grocery store, it was HUGE! About 10 pounds huge! I trimmed the fat, cut it up and cooked it in cocont oil, since Hennesey does not tend to tolerate organ meat raw. Thinking about investing in a dehydrator for all his organ meats. Just walked out with a turkey neck this morning from my local butcher, HERE GOES!

[BootsyCollins]

Heart wouldn't "count" as organ meat, right? Liver is the important one? Or is that completely wrong?

 

Why would a raw fed dog need a calcium supplement?

 

 

[sweetdogs]

Heart is considered a muscle meat. Liver, kidneys, sweetbreads are all organs. I usually buy heart, liver & kidneys at the supermarket. Oftentimes they'll have pork liver, which is a nice change-up. I get most of my foods from Oma's Pride. I buy as much as I can cram in my freezer (usually 3 months worth) & if I think I can squeeze it in, I'll throw in a bag of turkey hearts. (Oma's has a lot of mixes but I just buy plain, single items.) I've been buying a few items from Raaw Energy lately. Good to have multiple sources. It's the only way I can keep the costs down.

 

Calcium supplements are only needed if no other calcium source is being fed. With RMB's, no need to supplement.

[Guest rocknrooos]

For those interested in purchasing grass fed and humanely processed beef, chicken, etc. check out these 2 sites for your local farmers.

www.Eatwild.com

www.Localharvest.org

[Guest greyhound9797]

We transitioned Bootsy to raw just a few weeks ago. We are thrilled with the results so far. Thanks to Neylasmom, who held my hand and got me started, and thanks to all of you raw feeders who are so willing to repeat and repeat and repeat the same information in thread after thread for us newbies.

We've all been there and know how confusing and scary it can be. It's great to have a mentor so kudos to Neylasmom for helping you out. I've mentored a few people as well and they're always appreciative.

 

He is still on chicken quarters. I'm trying to find a good source for organs and other meats. I'm going to talk to the beef purveyor at the farmers market this weekend and ask about the good stuff I could get from them - like heart and liver maybe? How & where do you all find organs?

Don't forget that liver and organ only make up 10% of the diet so you don't need to feed a lot or feed often. Let's say for instance that your hound is 70 pounds and he's good at 3% of his body weight. That means that each meal is approximately 2.1 pounds (or 33 ounces if that's easier) with meat being approximately 26.4 ounces, bones 3.3 ounces, liver 1.65 ounces and other organ 1.65 ounces. ***Keep in mind that you do NOT need to feed this each and every meal! The raw diet is balanced over time - several days or a week - NOT each meal.** Over the course of a week that comes out to 11.5 pounds of meat, a little under 1.5 pounds of bone and liver and other organ are 11.5 ounces each. When you see the numbers like that you realize what a small portion of the diet liver and organ are. Yes, they're very important but nothing will happen if they don't get any in a short period of time.

 

I think heart is available at most grocery stores and I know liver (chicken and beef) is for sure. Neither heart nor chicken liver are very expensive at all but beef liver is a bit pricier. For "other" organs (brain, pancreas, lung, kidney...really ANY other part of the insides not counting heart, stomach or tongue which are all considered meat) you will be successful at ethnic markets if there are any in your area. Some grocery stores either stock kidney and/or brains or they can order it for you. Just remember that you don't need to order a case of 20 pounds of organ as that will last a very, very long time and take up space in your freezer.

 

What should we move to next?

Anything but how about pork? I buy pork picnics when they're on sale and even not on sale they're usually around $1.49/lb in my area. There's turkey, beef, fish, lamb, rabbit, venison, you name it. If you can find it and afford it, get it.

 

He eats 1.5 chicken quarters each meal. This morning, he swallowed the leg whole and sort of chomped up the quarter. He eats so fast - he's finished the quarter before he used to finish a bowl of kibble. Should this concern me?

Unless your guy is on the small size, 1.5 chicken quarters doesn't seem like enough food. I have a 61 pound female and she eats close to 2 pounds per day (that's a bit over 3% of her weight). Have you weighed his meals? I started out weighing food on a 2lb postage scale that I bought from Office Depot for about $8. I used it for 2-3 weeks until I was able to eyeball the correct amount of food to feed. I would make sure that your guy is eating enough. Though some dogs are big on swallowing food whole, it's a good idea to feed pieces that are big enough that they have to chew, crunch and crunch. You don't need to be concerned but at the very least he isn't getting the dental benefits of chewing or the mental stimulation of chewing, ripping, tearing and eating.

 

Sandra in FL

[BootsyCollins]

Sandra, thanks!!! Bootsy weighs about 75lbs. He gets 3 quarters per day, or about 2lbs. I guess we are underfeeding him a bit. Whoops. He looks so good though! His coat is glossy, he has happier eyes, his teeth are brighter, and his breath smells like NOTHING. (I didn't believe Jen when she said this would happen)

 

I will order a big case from Whole Foods, they give a 10% discount if you buy by the case. And I'll replace the batteries in my scale. I'll hit Shoppers this weekend for organs, but I do try to get happy meat, so I'll try the farmers market and a few local farms also.

[Guest DragonflyDM]

Just to add. I have found a lot of good advice here and online--- but this book was also very helpful.

 

Raw and Natural Diet

[Guest rocknrooos]

We transitioned Bootsy to raw just a few weeks ago. We are thrilled with the results so far. Thanks to Neylasmom, who held my hand and got me started, and thanks to all of you raw feeders who are so willing to repeat and repeat and repeat the same information in thread after thread for us newbies.

We've all been there and know how confusing and scary it can be. It's great to have a mentor so kudos to Neylasmom for helping you out. I've mentored a few people as well and they're always appreciative.

 

He is still on chicken quarters. I'm trying to find a good source for organs and other meats. I'm going to talk to the beef purveyor at the farmers market this weekend and ask about the good stuff I could get from them - like heart and liver maybe? How & where do you all find organs?

Don't forget that liver and organ only make up 10% of the diet so you don't need to feed a lot or feed often. Let's say for instance that your hound is 70 pounds and he's good at 3% of his body weight. That means that each meal is approximately 2.1 pounds (or 33 ounces if that's easier) with meat being approximately 26.4 ounces, bones 3.3 ounces, liver 1.65 ounces and other organ 1.65 ounces. ***Keep in mind that you do NOT need to feed this each and every meal! The raw diet is balanced over time - several days or a week - NOT each meal.** Over the course of a week that comes out to 11.5 pounds of meat, a little under 1.5 pounds of bone and liver and other organ are 11.5 ounces each. When you see the numbers like that you realize what a small portion of the diet liver and organ are. Yes, they're very important but nothing will happen if they don't get any in a short period of time.

 

I think heart is available at most grocery stores and I know liver (chicken and beef) is for sure. Neither heart nor chicken liver are very expensive at all but beef liver is a bit pricier. For "other" organs (brain, pancreas, lung, kidney...really ANY other part of the insides not counting heart, stomach or tongue which are all considered meat) you will be successful at ethnic markets if there are any in your area. Some grocery stores either stock kidney and/or brains or they can order it for you. Just remember that you don't need to order a case of 20 pounds of organ as that will last a very, very long time and take up space in your freezer.

 

What should we move to next?

Anything but how about pork? I buy pork picnics when they're on sale and even not on sale they're usually around $1.49/lb in my area. There's turkey, beef, fish, lamb, rabbit, venison, you name it. If you can find it and afford it, get it.

 

He eats 1.5 chicken quarters each meal. This morning, he swallowed the leg whole and sort of chomped up the quarter. He eats so fast - he's finished the quarter before he used to finish a bowl of kibble. Should this concern me?

Unless your guy is on the small size, 1.5 chicken quarters doesn't seem like enough food. I have a 61 pound female and she eats close to 2 pounds per day (that's a bit over 3% of her weight). Have you weighed his meals? I started out weighing food on a 2lb postage scale that I bought from Office Depot for about $8. I used it for 2-3 weeks until I was able to eyeball the correct amount of food to feed. I would make sure that your guy is eating enough. Though some dogs are big on swallowing food whole, it's a good idea to feed pieces that are big enough that they have to chew, crunch and crunch. You don't need to be concerned but at the very least he isn't getting the dental benefits of chewing or the mental stimulation of chewing, ripping, tearing and eating.

 

Sandra in FL

I took the plunge this week and gave Mr. H some turkey necks and some drumsticks. He seemed intrigued at first sight of the food; as if to say "REALLY?? IS THIS FOR ME??" His stool was pretty hard today and he wimpered as he tried to defecate; obviously too much bone in diet. How does one establish how much meat vs. bone is in raw meaty bones? In other words, what is the ratio/proportion of meat vs. bone? How does one find the right balance of each? Is there a general guideline I can follow so I know what to shop for? Perhaps the drumsticks are too much bone compared to the amount of chicken meat, I really don't have a good sense of this yet. This may sound like an ignorant question but, he crunched on and swallowed the whole drumstick bones, is that ok and safe?

He wasn't too interested today in drumsticks and is definitely NOT eating 2lbs of meaty bones a day thus far; does it take time for a dog to build up to acquiring a taste and consuming the appropriate amount of a feeding? Chicken with or without skin? The RAW threads have been immensely informative, thank you.

[Guest rocknrooos]

First week on RAW: turkey necks and chicken legs/drumsticks. He was like "REALLY, IS THIS FOR ME?" Hennesey seemed to enjoy the necks....this may sound like a silly question but he crunched on and swallowed the entire bones from the drumsticks, is this OK and SAFE? His stool was very hard today; he whimpered; too much bone for sure. How does one go about determining the ratio/proportion of meat vs bone how much of each is on a particular piece, so that I can figure what is too much bone? I don't have a good sense of this yet. Is there some sort of guideline we can use to help us determine what kind of cuts to shop for and what to stay away from? Also, he is definitely NOT eating 2lbs of meaty bones per day. Does it take some time for a dog to build up an appetite? Chicken skin ok to consume? The RAW threads have been extremely informative, thank you!

[Guest rocknrooos]

Rough night, I fed Hennesey 3 beef rib slabs last evening around 8pm. I heard him trying to regurgitate at about 5:30 am, he did bring up pieces of WHOLE BONE, much to my dismay . WHAT WENT WRONG HERE?? And his stomach hasn't stopped grumbling since then. He's outside now eating grass . Are there certain MEATY cuts, bones that should NEVER EVER be crushed and ingested by a dog/never be fed???? Or does this just depend on the dog?? Also, it seems to me that most of the weight in meaty bones comes from the bone itself, not meat. Am I incorrect in this observation? How do you achieve feeding the 80% meat over time? What types of meaty bones will provide more meat than <safe ingestible> bone? Can I feed him let's say a raw boneless chicken thigh with some turkey necks? Don't know about this! I see things are off to a very rocky start.......... Feeling scared for my boy........

[Trihounds]

Personally, we stay away from ribs of everything but fowl. No pork, beef or other large animal ribs. I find them far too thick / dense / strong for our 4 dogs. It is no problem to feed all meat and then bones, like, chicken or turkey backs as a 'side dish'.

Our dogs are having chicken leg quarters tonight. Lat night, they had beef without any bone at all as we are out of stock! We also by whole chicken and cut it in quarters for the 4 of them. Think about the dog's meal like a person's with a main course and a couple sides. No problem to have pure meat as a main with a side of chicken backs or necks. Even turkey on the side. Mix and match species - we do beef with chicken parts like feet, backs, necks all the time.

Your goal should be to balance the percentages over time, like a week or so ( or 2). For the bone content, we let the stool be the judge. Sounds odd, but soft poop needs more bone, that simple. For big RMB's, we give knee joints with meat still attached but they only pull at cartilage and tendon. We don't allow chewing of weight bearing bones at all. Our dogs don't like organs and only a little gives a couple really soft stool so we are careful.

For the next while, stick to smaller, softer, more malleable bones. There is no need to feed ribs.

The following are on our personal 'do not feed' list (from experience and best judgement based on that experience):

• Turkey necks for Squirt and Omie (thrown up bits of bone more than once)
• Ribs for all
• Chicken necks for Omie (too small for the gulper)
• Pork neck
• Pork or ox tail
• Any weight bearing bone of anything other than a bird
• Turkey wings
• Turkey legs
• Turkey backs.

Don't give up on raw feeding or try to over complicate it. Stay away from dense bone and too much organ and hennesey will be fine. Everything in between will be perfect.

 

[seeh2o]

Carl has problems with bone, so I've been giving him 1 Tablespoon of apple cider vinegar with breakfast for a year now. He doesn't hork bones anymore as a result The main bones they get are Cornish hens cut in half, turkey necks and duck necks. Claire doesn't have any issues digesting bone, but I give her the apple cider vinegar, too. Can't leave my girl out of all of the fun.

 

I agree with everyone above, you'll know by the poop!