Regressing?

[Acadianarose]

Payton has been with us four months. When he first arrived he was very space aggressive and growled at everyone and everything. We have spent so much time working with him and training. He has been doing great and I haven't heard him growl in a couple of months. He even jumped up in the bed and laid down with Lexi.

 

This week, he seems to have regressed. He is growling at Toby out of the blue and just seeming off.

 

My husband (yes, husband) for some stupid reason thought it was a good idea to sit on Payton's bed with him which freaked the heck out of Payton. Also, I have been trying to trim his nail and that's not making him happy. And, even though we have three beds in the living room, he and Toby want the same one and Payton has been really aggressive (for lack of better word) about it. Toby had scrapes on his face yesterday when we got home.

 

Is it a case of two steps forward, one step back? Should I keep up what I have been doing (before this week) or try something new? Or is this week of stressors just too much?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Acadianarose

[Guest jetska]

Maybe Toby is pushing him more than he did before ? honeymoon is wearing off for the new dog and Toby wants to lie where he wants to lie ?

 

I don't think progress is ever linear with dogs.... they are always going to have times where they go backwards for a bit.

[Acadianarose]

 

Toby is kind of old (11) and if Payton growls at him, he lies down submissively. But Toby does like his comfort and he won't get up if Payton tries to take his bed...

 

Crazy thing about this bed- I have had it for months, even before we had Payton, and neither of them touched it. All of sudden, it is the hot bed of the house.

 

 

I don't think progress is ever linear with dogs.... they are always going to have times where they go backwards for a bit.

You're right, but it gets so frustrating to get so far and then backtrack. Edited December 13, 2013 by Acadianarose

[NeylasMom]

My first thought is is there something medical going on. One of the first indicators that Zuri's LS is bothering him (or really that his groin muscles are hurting him from compensating for his LS) is that he is more quick to growl at the other dogs, particularly when he gets bumped.

 

So I would start there. If you're sure that's not it, I would look at two things. One, have you reduced your training? Counter-conditioning is really something you'll want to do for the rest of his life, so while once the dog "gets it" you can alternate verbal praise with food, you still need to reward for the positive response you want routinely, and frankly why not be generous with the food rewards since it's easy enough. Second, identify any stressors in his life and do what you can to remove them or manage them. Maybe for a while you need to separate the boys when you're not home to be safe.

[MaryJane]

You didn't mention whether you are muzzling them when you leave the house.

[Acadianarose]

I muzzled at first, but I haven't for a couple of months. Payton is really bossy, but they get along pretty well now, at least until the last couple of days.

 

He doesn't seem to be in pain. The growling is while he is in his bed.

 

As crazy as it is, I really think a big thing right now is the beds. Toby generally doesn't lay on a bed, but has suddenly decided he wants to and they both want the same bed. I can try identical beds and see if that helps.

 

Also, he is getting a bit too heavy so I have cut his food a little bit. Not much, about 1/4 cup each meal. I am giving him green beans to make up the difference but he still seems hungry. That seems to make him grumpy.

 

He is really, really, really food motivated, so I am ramping up his training to try to get him back on track. I keep a bowl of tiny kibble above his bed and we always give him a treat when we walk by his bed. He expects it now. We are also teaching him to sit, touch and give me paw.

[Brandiandwe]

Keep on training. Last night I ended up at the vet with Paige after she and Brandi had a spat. $700 dollars later and stitches to a gash under the eye and two puncture wounds in the throat, one of which just missed to jugular, and I'm back to muzzling or crating. The girls have lived together for over 2 years without a problem.

[MaryJane]

I might suggest muzzles whenever you leave the house or crate one of the dogs.

 

While you might think that muzzles (or crating) are not needed, it's much better to be safe than sorry. It's sounds like the issues are slowly escalating and while you might be able to get them under control given some time, it sounds like Toby is not in a good place to be able to defend himself. It also sounds like your new boy is unsure of himself and more apt to try and defend himself and what he sees as his "territory".

 

If you step back a bit from the situation and maybe look at it if it was occurring to someone else, you might see what I am seeing.

 

New dogs go through phases and like you said, he may have just regressed a bit but, best not to ignore and think that it will be OK.

[Guest k9soul]

My adoption rep told me that often they get suddenly get calls after dogs have been in the home a few months where they are suddenly displaying an old behavior or a new problematic one. She felt they get settled in and comfortable and sometimes push things a bit. I know that idea may be controversial, but I do know that Rudy went through a phase several months after he was home where he became less and less tolerant of my other dogs being close to him when he was lying down. I didn't do anything at first. He'd growl or bark and they'd jump and go off somewhere else. But he began to "claim" more and more space until he was growling when they even tried to enter the room, no where close to his bed.

 

Here's where some people would vehemently disagree with the route I chose, but I did choose to intervene and at this point said "uh-uh" when he started threatening them when they came in the room and then "good boy, it's ok" as he would seem to relax and accept them coming into the same room. I let him tell them off if they got really close to his space even though he had previously seemed fine with them being there, but after I kind of stepped in and stopped the spread of what he was claiming, he tapered off with that behavior and it eventually stopped altogether and now he is back to being very accepting of them lying on the bed right next to his or on the sofa with him. I never did insist on him accepting those things, he just seemed to relax his vigil and accept it again on his own.

 

If he were growling at a person for walking near the sofa or something, I would have handled it differently, by having him get up, withhold his furniture privileges for a bit while we worked on some basic training things again. But with the girls, they were continually rewarding his behavior by leaving as soon as he wanted them to and it was encouraging him to continue and escalate it, so I stepped in.

Edited December 13, 2013 by k9soul

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

What do you do when he growls?

[Guest Heep]

Once you rule out medical, I'd try going a bit Caeser Milan on his butt. Sounds like you guys may have gotten a bit complacent with letting him know who's boss. It's happened to us before with our beloved, dearly-departed Phoenix Star. When we started getting lazy, she'd start with the growls & snapping & playing at being Queen Bee. Although, she was Queen Bee, we didn't need her knowing that simply for the sake of maintaining harmony in the house. You might have to remind him that the humans are in charge & you decide who gets disciplined, when everyone is allowed to eat, & who gets which bed. I'd also stick with keeping them muzzled when no one is home, just to be safe.

[Acadianarose]

When he growls at Toby, I go over to him and tell him "it's ok" in a relaxed tone. He will generally relax and look at me. When he does, I give him a treat and tell him "good boy". I also do that if he growls at the cats.

 

As soon as I say this, I know I will jinx myself, but we have been working on space agression and as he has gotten more comfortable with us, I have not heard him growl at a human (other than me cutting his nails) for a couple of months.

[Guest sireltonsmom]

Greys go thru several iterations in their new home. It is not unusual for one to be the best kid for a while, then push the envelope to see what they can claim or boss. You not allowing it is a good way to handle it. You could remove the bed in contention for a while to see if that makes a difference since there are sufficient other beds. Be persistent one more time than he's resistant. It will work out.

 

[Guest k9soul]

Oh boy, Heep just opened a can of worms (not touching that )

[Acadianarose]

Greys go thru several iterations in their new home. It is not unusual for one to be the best kid for a while, then push the envelope to see what they can claim or boss. You not allowing it is a good way to handle it. You could remove the bed in contention for a while to see if that makes a difference since there are sufficient other beds. Be persistent one more time than he's resistant. It will work out.

 

 

I took the bed out to wash it yesterday so they both wanted another bed that is in the room! What I see happening - If it is Toby on the bed, Payton will stand on the bed right beside him and try to push him off. If Payton is on the bed, Toby will stand near the bed and wait for him to get up.

[Acadianarose]

My adoption rep told me that often they get suddenly get calls after dogs have been in the home a few months where they are suddenly displaying an old behavior or a new problematic one. She felt they get settled in and comfortable and sometimes push things a bit. I know that idea may be controversial, but I do know that Rudy went through a phase several months after he was home where he became less and less tolerant of my other dogs being close to him when he was lying down. I didn't do anything at first. He'd growl or bark and they'd jump and go off somewhere else. But he began to "claim" more and more space until he was growling when they even tried to enter the room, no where close to his bed.

 

Here's where some people would vehemently disagree with the route I chose, but I did choose to intervene and at this point said "uh-uh" when he started threatening them when they came in the room and then "good boy, it's ok" as he would seem to relax and accept them coming into the same room. I let him tell them off if they got really close to his space even though he had previously seemed fine with them being there, but after I kind of stepped in and stopped the spread of what he was claiming, he tapered off with that behavior and it eventually stopped altogether and now he is back to being very accepting of them lying on the bed right next to his or on the sofa with him. I never did insist on him accepting those things, he just seemed to relax his vigil and accept it again on his own.

 

If he were growling at a person for walking near the sofa or something, I would have handled it differently, by having him get up, withhold his furniture privileges for a bit while we worked on some basic training things again. But with the girls, they were continually rewarding his behavior by leaving as soon as he wanted them to and it was encouraging him to continue and escalate it, so I stepped in.

 

Payton is my first greyhound, but I have had dogs my entire life. I do believe that sometimes you do have to intervene. They all depend on me to keep them safe and Toby really can't defend himself anymore.

[Guest k9soul]

 

Payton is my first greyhound, but I have had dogs my entire life. I do believe that sometimes you do have to intervene. They all depend on me to keep them safe and Toby really can't defend himself anymore.

 

I'm in the same situation. I've had dogs continuously in my home for 26 years now, but Rudy is my first greyhound. There are some differences I've had to learn due to their very different upbringing and environment, but I too think there are times one must intervene, though never with anger and never ever with any physical punishment. Rudy is very very easy, he will generally stop doing something with a simple "uh uh" spoke in a normal tone. I wanted to be reasonable with him, he is allowed to have some space but he can't claim a whole room.

[NeylasMom]

Oh boy, Heep just opened a can of worms (not touching that )

Uh yeah. I'd like to refer Heep to my "Growling is good" thread in this forum, otherwise, I'm leaving it alone.

 

 

I took the bed out to wash it yesterday so they both wanted another bed that is in the room! What I see happening - If it is Toby on the bed, Payton will stand on the bed right beside him and try to push him off. If Payton is on the bed, Toby will stand near the bed and wait for him to get up.

I would interrupt that behavior from either dog since the bed seems to be a point of contention. So whoever is doing the standing, call him away, then direct him to another bed and ask him to lie down. When he does, reward him with a treat. Alternatively you can just call him away and then ask him to do something else (although I prefer the bed cue), like a sit and reward, but the steps are: interrrupt (calling him away), request an alternative behavior, reward for that behavior.

 

Regarding the muzzling, I would strongly suggest separating them via baby gate or something along those lines over muzzling. Muzzles will prevent major injury, but they won't do anything to stop the behavior that's causing issues and it means it's happening at a time when you can't intervene to teach a more appropriate behavior. So really strongly suggest separating when you can't supervise (this means when you're home too) until things have improved. You can crate one or both dogs, put them in separate but adjacent rooms with a baby gate up off of the floor a bit to discourage jumping, use x-pens, etc. Whatever they'd be comfortable with.

Edited December 13, 2013 by NeylasMom

[Acadianarose]

Payton decided to take both bed...

 

 

Thanks for the advice. I think I am going to separate them for the time being. I don't know if identical beds will help but I am going to try that too.

[JJNg]

I think it's always important to keep in mind the effects that stress can have on behavior. Take a step back and look at the big picture. Have there been any recent changes or incidents that could be causing increased stress for either you or Payton? Outside and unrelated factors that increase stress level can increase irritability and reactivity. Aggressive incidents then further increase stress, and it can become a vicious cycle. I think separating him and Toby is a good idea to prevent any further incidents that could exacerbate problems. Sometimes just giving the dog some downtime to 'de-stress' will allow things to go back to normal. But of course, you still want to monitor interactions closely and facilitate as needed.

 

Here's a good article about the effects of stress:

Understanding Canine Stress

[DofSweetPotatos]

In addition to JjNg's post, I would turn the unwannted behavior (bed stealing/hovering) into a wanted cue. You could teach each dog "place". Which would mean they go to their respective corner/bed/mat/crate and reward. You'll have to teach it to one dog at a time, they should each have their separate place. But, place is great for getting that stressy situation to stop and it engages both dogs safely.

[Acadianarose]

We have been following everyone's advice and things seem back to normal. Payton seems to be getting back in his grove too. They stopped fighting over the beds, at least temporarily. I am getting them new beds but I haven't found anything I like yet.

 

Also, I realized that the scrap on the lab's face was not from Payton. He is developing skin issues and he keeps scratching his own face.

[Guest jetska]

We have been following everyone's advice and things seem back to normal. Payton seems to be getting back in his grove too. They stopped fighting over the beds, at least temporarily. I am getting them new beds but I haven't found anything I like yet.

 

Also, I realized that the scrap on the lab's face was not from Payton. He is developing skin issues and he keeps scratching his own face.

 

That is good news.... well kind of. I hope Toby's skin issues can be easily resolved.