Fighting Outside

[Guest DeniseL]

I have a question and I'm hoping that someone with more experience can give some advice about my two girls...

 

Izzy came home to live with Miami, boy, and Thyme, girl, about two months ago. My two girls get along great. Aside from a warning snap here or there and a few communication growls, it has been smooth sailing. Neither bullies or dominates the other, they don't fight over toys, each of them takes turns standing their ground or backing down to each other while playing. They chase each other around the house and lay down and play bitey face. They even sleep together sometimes. Good stuff.

 

We don't have a real back yard and they generally get walked 4-5 times a day together. Sometimes, if Izzy needs to burn off a little steam, there is a smaller enclosed area in the neighborhood I take her to in the morning. So, once or twice a week, we take them to a large fully enclosed run that a local adoption group provides. Usually they chase each other or I throw the ball. Generally, they just have fun and we work on recall training.

 

However, the last two weeks we have taken them to run they end up in a fight. Usually they start by chasing each other and it looks like they are just playing, but then it escalates to a serious battle that we need to call off or physically break up. They are all muzzled the whole time, so nobody has gotten hurt (even though I know muzzles can't prevent all injuries). Afterwards they are fine and in the car home they are good. But if they didn't have those muzzles on, I think there would be a REAL problem and damage done.

 

Is it normal behavior when they are so aroused? Has anyone else experienced this? Should I not let them run together anymore? Or maybe I need to really tire them out separately first before letting them play together?

 

I would love them all to be able to run and frolic and just enjoy themselves instead of it turning aggressive. Also, I wouldn't want to ruin the way that they interact at home, since they get along so well.

 

Any advice would be appreciated...thanks!

 

here they are snuggling together:

[greysmom]

Make sure what you're witnessing is actually aggression and not just very loud playing. My three will wrestle and muzzle joust and run and growl and bark. They'll take each other out by undercutting legs. They'll air snap and sound like crocodiles on a feeding frenzy. They will run and chase and stop and "fight" - it looks and sounds like an MMA bout. But they really are just playing.

 

Yes, without muzzles, there would undoubtedly be nips and blood - but that's what the muzzles are for! If neither one of them is in distress, and both are giving as well as getting, personally, I would just let them play. But if you don't like it - or you really do feel there is major aggression going on - watch closely for the triggers that switch it from fun and stop them before they get that far. Limit their play time together if that's the problem. You can also purchase or make a lure pole, which will let them play together, but with a different focus - and a 10 minute lure pole session is as good as a long run-and-chase.

[TheFullHouse]

Are you sure it's actual fighting and just not a lot of noisy play and competition? If they are actually fighting you won't be able to call them off easily. A true fight can sometimes lead to said dogs being up on their hind legs rearing up like horses. Usually when mine play, and I only put 3 out at a time, there is a lot of posturing, growling and such while they are chasing each other. To me that's normal competitiveness between the dogs. They usually break off by themselves or I can call them and they stop immediately. I've only had two what I consider true fights and I couldn't break it up by yelling, I had to physically pull them apart. That was years ago and one of the dogs was new. To ensure a little more safety, you can put stool guards in their muzzles so there is less of a chance of a stray tooth snagging one of them.

 

If they are truly fighting, you'll have to try and see which one of the dogs is actually starting the fight. Try and see if it's just one of the other dogs this dog is going after. Once you figure that out you can let the offending dog run with the dog it's not going after and watch to see how those two relate. You may find that one of them is very competitive and will go after any dog it chases.

[Guest Giselle]

Arousal and aggression are on the same spectrum. Once those hormones are flowing and the body is primed for action, it only takes a little loss of self control for the brain to switch to aggression. It's more complicated than that, of course, but this is the gist of it. This is why play can so frequently break out into fights.

 

Because you know your dogs have a tendency to do it this already:

1) Continue muzzling them during play.

2) Practice frequent recall exercises to break up their play randomly and give them "time-outs" to take a breath and relax. If you know that fights tend to break out when their arousal hits 90%, then practice frequent recalls and time-outs to keep them at 70-80%.

[Guest DeniseL]

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it was aggression. Izzy can be very scrappy and she plays rough in the house with both Miami and Thyme. Barking, growling body blocks, etc and it is just play. But it is not like how they were fighting outside. They were both up on their back legs going at it. My husband and I both had to grab a dog and pull them apart. Lots of snarling, teeth baring and biting.

 

It always seems like the Thyme is the one being chased. And then once Izzy and Miami catch up to her they start to fight. But, I think Thyme starts it (probably because she is sick of being chased lol). Izzy can be scrappy, but is actually very easy going, nothing really bothers her. So I would say that Thyme is the instigator, and it is only Izzy she starts with.

 

Arousal and aggression are on the same spectrum. Once those hormones are flowing and the body is primed for action, it only takes a little loss of self control for the brain to switch to aggression. It's more complicated than that, of course, but this is the gist of it. This is why play can so frequently break out into fights.

 

I agree with this. It's only when they are really hyped up that it happens. I will try the recall suggestions and try to prevent them from getting to the breaking point. The problem is that as soon as you let them off the lead they are at 100%, running and chasing and then it ends with the fight.

 

Yes, without muzzles, there would undoubtedly be nips and blood - but that's what the muzzles are for! If neither one of them is in distress, and both are giving as well as getting, personally, I would just let them play. But if you don't like it - or you really do feel there is major aggression going on - watch closely for the triggers that switch it from fun and stop them before they get that far. Limit their play time together if that's the problem. You can also purchase or make a lure pole, which will let them play together, but with a different focus - and a 10 minute lure pole session is as good as a long run-and-chase.

 

I actually just bought a lure pole! It was delivered to my office and I haven't been able to bring it home. I will try that the next time we go....

[Guest Giselle]

I will try the recall suggestions and try to prevent them from getting to the breaking point. The problem is that as soon as you let them off the lead they are at 100%, running and chasing and then it ends with the fight.

The problem, then, is that the dogs need to be taught impulse control. A lure pole will not solve the problem. In fact, it could make it worse because now you're engaging their already high desire for play AND their prey drive. It's an arousal disaster!

 

Before any dog is allowed to play off-leash, they should already have a very solid recall. This one basic prerequisite cuts down on an enormous number of arousal and impulse control problems. Unfortunately, it's easy to let dogs off leash to play rambunctiously. It's harder teaching them impulse control. This is also another huge contributor to play that turn into fights.

A solid recall is essentially an extension of a solid loose-leash+automatic Sit. If you practice the loose leash + automatic sit over and over again (with the dog in front of you, with the dog beside you, with the dog running towards you), you can easily transition the behavior into a recall.

These videos explain pretty clearly the progression of behaviors that are required to teach a recall, with an emphasis on impulse control.

1) Start by teaching the foundation behaviors of loose-leash and automatic Sits: http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/say_please_by_sitting

2) Practice with distractions: http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/come_when_called

3) Polish it into a fast and reliable recall: http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/dog-class-come-when-called

 

If your greyhound finds sitting uncomfortable, you can use an automatic Down instead. If you're doing these exercises quickly and briskly, however, your grey only needs to sit for ~5 seconds. Even my ol' Giselle could do that, so it's not an impossible task!

[Guest DeniseL]

The problem, then, is that the dogs need to be taught impulse control. A lure pole will not solve the problem. In fact, it could make it worse because now you're engaging their already high desire for play AND their prey drive. It's an arousal disaster!

 

Before any dog is allowed to play off-leash, they should already have a very solid recall. This one basic prerequisite cuts down on an enormous number of arousal and impulse control problems. Unfortunately, it's easy to let dogs off leash to play rambunctiously. It's harder teaching them impulse control. This is also another huge contributor to play that turn into fights.

A solid recall is essentially an extension of a solid loose-leash+automatic Sit. If you practice the loose leash + automatic sit over and over again (with the dog in front of you, with the dog beside you, with the dog running towards you), you can easily transition the behavior into a recall.

These videos explain pretty clearly the progression of behaviors that are required to teach a recall, with an emphasis on impulse control.

1) Start by teaching the foundation behaviors of loose-leash and automatic Sits: http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/say_please_by_sitting

2) Practice with distractions: http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/come_when_called

3) Polish it into a fast and reliable recall: http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/dog-class-come-when-called

 

If your greyhound finds sitting uncomfortable, you can use an automatic Down instead. If you're doing these exercises quickly and briskly, however, your grey only needs to sit for ~5 seconds. Even my ol' Giselle could do that, so it's not an impossible task!

 

They do not have a solid recall, that's for sure, but we have been working on it.

 

Thank you so much for this information!

 

So maybe what we will do, is just work one at a time for a while on impulse and recall training (and maybe some lure pole fun individually?) and make sure they have it 100% before even attempting to let them play together. I have not been successful teaching them to sit, but all three have very solid downs. I will check out the videos tonight...

[BatterseaBrindl]

Another thought...won't stop the fighting or rough play, but it may help figure out why it is happening at this point in time.

 

Perhaps Izzie is trying to figure out her place in the pack....

 

Two months is time enough for her to get settled into the home and learn the routines.

Now she has to figure out who's really in charge and test some limits of the other two hounds.

Maybe she feels she should be in charge....

Maybe she is fine being on the bottom of the heap....

Maybe her place is in the middle....

 

In my experience with multiple dogs, over many, many years, it usually takes 2-3 months for the 'pack order' to sort itself out after a new member arrives.

Once the 'order' has been re-established, things will settle down again....

This could be a one-time growl/snap/bark or it could take a few days or a few weeks.

All dogs are different.... all packs are different.

 

I've found that the 'aggression' stops once the pack is back 'in order'.

 

It is your job to monitor things and make sure that everyone stays safe while this transition is taking place.

[Guest DeniseL]

Another thought...won't stop the fighting or rough play, but it may help figure out why it is happening at this point in time.

 

Perhaps Izzie is trying to figure out her place in the pack....

 

Two months is time enough for her to get settled into the home and learn the routines.

Now she has to figure out who's really in charge and test some limits of the other two hounds.

Maybe she feels she should be in charge....

Maybe she is fine being on the bottom of the heap....

Maybe her place is in the middle....

 

In my experience with multiple dogs, over many, many years, it usually takes 2-3 months for the 'pack order' to sort itself out after a new member arrives.

Once the 'order' has been re-established, things will settle down again....

This could be a one-time growl/snap/bark or it could take a few days or a few weeks.

All dogs are different.... all packs are different.

 

I've found that the 'aggression' stops once the pack is back 'in order'.

 

It is your job to monitor things and make sure that everyone stays safe while this transition is taking place.

 

I thought this might be some of it. So then I have another question...I know that the whole "dominance alpha' thing is antiquated thinking... however, I still hear a lot about "the pack". Is one dog always at the head? If so, I would say its my boy Miami. He is the quiet leader for sure. When he moves they get out of his way. It's a very subtle and very peaceful kind of leadership. But will one of my girls wind up sorta like second in command? Will one of them be more dominant and one more submissive, because from what I see it seems very fluid. If Izzy has the toy its HER toy. Until she gets up, then it becomes Thyme's toy. Or when Izzy is on one bed and Thyme wants to lay there, Izzy will give a growl and Thyme will walk away. Often times the exact opposite happens and it's Izzy who will back off. Then other times they are sleeping right next to each other.

 

Now that I think of it, Miami always would chase Thyme outside. That's just the way it was. Now today and last week, Thyme has Miami chasing her, which she is probably ok with, and also Izzy is chasing her, which she might not be ok with...So maybe that's why she is turning on Izzy after the chase...

[greysmom]

The "leader" in any given situation will likely change, depending on which one feels the most comfortable in that situation. It's not really a matter of *this* one being the leader all the time. It's a more fluid dynamic.

[Guest Giselle]

The "leader" in any given situation will likely change, depending on which one feels the most comfortable in that situation. It's not really a matter of *this* one being the leader all the time. It's a more fluid dynamic.

Yup. So, if you think about it, knowing who's "leader" in one situation doesn't really help in modifying behavior in a totally different situation It's basically interesting information... but not helpful for training.

 

Work on their recall. Make it rock solid. In the meantime, you can let them play but keep them on leash and in a confined area. Frequently call them off and have them rest in a Down for ~15 seconds. Practice this over and over. Play lightly --> Recall --> Rest --> Release and repeat. If you practice this over and over again, the dogs will eventually sharpen their "Off" button, and you can easily call them off each other before the arousal escalates into a fight.

[a_daerr]

Agree with everything Giselle said. I taught my guys recall training by using their names, but when we go to a dog park or they're playing hard in the yard, I use a whistle. I find that It sort of brings them back to earth and allows them to more easily preform the command when other distractions are present. For the first few months, I rewarded them EVERY time they came. Your treats for recall training need to be high value, since this is absolutely the most important command they'll ever learn.

 

Also, I haven't experienced bonafide aggression, but my older guy used to bully the puppy during play. Time outs are a good tool. Start separating them for one to two minutes when it gets too rough, but BEFORE it breaks out in a fight. If they start understanding that aggression results in a time out (a punishment), they'll be less inclined to let it escalate.

 

It sounds like both of them are strong, competitive, females who obviously live together peacefully, but have a hard time backing down during play. That's an encouraging sign that the behavior can be reduced, if not eliminated.

[Guest DeniseL]

great advice, as usual