Ruffhouse Play By Other Dogs

[Guest tsmith1]

I took Sherlock (my greyt) and my retriever/shepherd mix to the dog park today. There was a Bull terrier, German Shepherd & Tree walking coonhound there as well.

 

The Terrier and Shepherd were ruffhousing and the play got a bit intense. Sherlock didn't like the action and seemed to alert to attack the terrier. Nothing happened because he gave me clues well before the two other dogs got out of hand.

 

Question beside the obivious avoid smaller dogs does one have to avoid the herding group of dogs as well? Herding dogs that I've had experience with all like to play ruffhouse and while Sherlock loves to chase and have a dog chase him, he simply doesn't understand ruff play. I had the feeling it was avoid the other dog if possible or kill or be killed.

 

Is it a positive to hold him secure and have him observe this behaviour by other dogs interacting in hopes he can adapt or avoid it all together?

 

I do have an excellent dog park near me which has the only enclosed space I can let him loose in. Normally there aren't more then three other dogs there at one time.

 

I'm sure there are other threads on this topic, if so can someone send me a link to it? I tried a search but came up with nothing on it.

[mangos_mom]

You will get a mixture of responses here about dog parks in general. Some folks use them, and some avoid them like the plague. Here's what I can tell you about my personal experience. Of the 5 greyhounds I've have over the past 7 years, one would get in the middle and play until it got too rough and then she would back off. The other 3 want nothing to do with rough play. However, I've had at least one foster who gleefully got into the middle of rough-housing and often needed to be pulled back.

 

It depends on the individual dog as to how they will react, but one thing to always keep in mind is that greyhounds don't have all that extra fur that the herding types have, or extra skin that some other breeds have. A simple nip can turn into a costly injury.

 

Also, with a high-prey drive dog like Sherlock, you will have to be extra vigilant when there is rough-housing, because he will quickly kick into that predator-prey attack mode.

 

The one question I can't answer, but hopefully others can, is whether he will "get" that it's play with experience. Not sure about that one because I've never had a high-prey grey.

 

Love that you are posting here and asking so many questions. Good for you! And good for Sherlock having someone who cares enough to ask the questions!

[krissy]

Depends on how your dog reacts. He may be fine with some groups but need to avoid other energies and play types. Kili plays well with everyone but I've had her since 8 weeks and she's played with more non-greys than greys. Inusually take Kili in first and observe the other dogs. If I think the other individuals are okay I go back to the truck and bring Summit in on leash. I allow him to meet the other dogs and then I let him go. If he gets too snarky at any point he goes back on leash. If he really can't deal with any individual there he goes back to the truck. Some days he has a blast and other times he spends the whole outing in the truck.

[Brandiandwe]

Paige is high prey and loves rough play. Brandi isn't and prefers tip and run games. Paige is also a dominant little cow who would die before giving in. So we only do dog parks with other greys. It's too hard otherwise.

[Fruitycake]

As krissy has said, it very much depends on the particular dog as to what kind of play they like and what will push them over the edge into "no longer playing." Our prior dog, a nongrey (keeshond) was very very well socialized with everyone, people, cats, children, other dogs, and would turn the other cheek...but was "The Fun Police" when at a dog park and other dogs started playing rough and making lots of noise. She'd run after them barking and carrying on, and though she never actually got involved, she was telling them to KNOCK IT OFF RIGHT NOW! She liked a little romping, a little running, but if it sounded like it might get serious (even just seriously enthusiastic play with lots of noise and bitey-face), it frustrated her.

 

Our current keeshond is a lot more trigger happy, and she hasn't been well socialized to other dogs (she's always tense around them, and has a few in the neighborhood that she absolutely hates because they've scared her by barking at her). She doesn't do any real dog park activities, and the few times we have she's stuck close to her greyhound brother (who doesn't care about the other dogs and wants to sniff the markings or flirt with other people there) or goes between him and us like she's on a string. She gets upset when she sees others going at it, either in rough play or even edging into fight, so we're always watching her like a hawk (luckily she has absolutely stellar recall, and will do a flying turnabout even when running away to come back to us...unless there's a squirrel) I don't know that greyhounds as a group are allowed to do, but I bet that since they have kennel muzzles and they're supervised that they may not have the experience with rough-and-tumble play that you see in a dog park. Maybe it gets too intense for your boy, and as dogs will do he may be deciding that it isn't play but a fight and he's going to join in. This is one of the huge potential problems of dog parks - it can turn into a massive melee if a real fight breaks out between even two dogs if the owners can't prevent their own dogs from joining. Some dogs are quicker to join in than others (Monty, our grey, would be dead last into a fight I think - while Allie (keeshond) would be the first to jump in if anyone caused her big brother Monty to yelp and she would be aiming for blood).

 

It sounds like you were watching like a hawk when you had your dog at the park and caught him before he could dive in teeth-first, which is excellent. Many owners don't, so they are the ones you need to be wary of (the dog wandering around with no one paying him any mind is basically free to do what he wants, good, bad or ugly). If you're going to go to the dog park, I don't think you need to worry about the breed of dog, but the way they play. Or specific dogs that Sherlock may just not like. Those that play rough or play noisy and get your boy too excited or into fight mode are dangerous if you can't redirect him before he gets involved. The absolutely safest situation would be to find other greyhound friends with a fenced area so you and they could let your dogs play together in their kennel muzzles. Then, if things get too snarky, there's less of a chance of injury. It still can happen, and you still need to be watching carefully to see how different dogs will interact, but the muzzles can help prevent injury. If you do muzzle, you want ALL dogs to have muzzles (so don't put one on him in a general dog park, because if Fido decides your Sherlock looks like someone to attack, you don't want him unable to fight back).

[Guest grey_dreams]

How long have you had your greyhound? If you don't know with absolute certainty that your greyhound is ok with smaller dogs, you shouldn't take him to a dog park. That could have tragic consequences for everyone.

[Guest tsmith1]

I've only had mine for three weeks, but the dog park is divided into under 30lbs and over. If a dog owner brings a dog in under the 30lb size I but him back on a leash and if that doesn't work we leave. On a scale of 1 to 4 he is a 3 on prey drive, but he is very clear in his signals that its prey. ANd again I only go when there are only two or three other dogs total all of whom are over 30 lbs.

[a_daerr]

Our park is divided too- there are sections for large dogs and small dogs. Unfortunately, owners do not always obey that rule. We once brought a foster grey to the dog park and had a really close encounter after someone decided to bring in a teacup Yorkie. The same foster had a scuffle with a medium sized dog (over 30 pounds), but it was white and fluffy so he believed it was fair game. Nine times out of ten, he was okay with other dogs. But there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to prey drive. I had to stop bringing him to the dog park for his own safety and the safety of others. It just wasn't worth the risk... And don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-dog-park at all. My other two boys are low-prey and well socialized with all breeds. We love the dog park and go there almost every day in the summer. But then again, both of my dogs have participated in extensive obedience training, their recall is reliable, and I've had them long enough to predict their behavior and understand their signals.

 

Here is my $0.02, and take it for what it's worth. If your dog is high-prey at all, dog parks are just a bad idea. Sherlock may be okay most of the time, but there is always that chance that he won't be. Realistically, you can't stand at the entrance and tell everybody entering, "Well, my dog might not be okay with yours, so you can't come in." And even if you are as vigilant as possible, dog fights can happen in a fraction of a second- before your brain would even get the message to leash him up and separate him. Plus, I NEVER recommend leashing a dog in the presence of a group of off-leash dogs. It immediately changes the dynamic, creates a situation of vulnerability, and makes your dog a target to the rest of the perceived pack. For now, I would contact your adoption group and ask about a greyhound-only playdate where all the dogs can be muzzled and run freely without the threat of harming other dogs. Then, if you work with his prey issues and maybe attend some obedience training, he may be able to be trusted at the dog park in the future. If this is not an option and you decide to continue bringing him to the dog park, just keep in mind that you assume the responsibility if he injures or kills another dog.

[Yamaha_gurl]

What area are you in? Perhaps there is a greyhound play group near by?

[Guest tsmith1]

Thanks Greyaholic,

 

Yes basically that's what I thought my options were, but was hoping there might be something else. Lots to consider.

 

Thanks again.

[Guest PaulEmandStan]

After a dodgy incident with a small dog we ALWAYS put a muzzle on Stan if we plan to let him off the lead and always ensure that there are no small and fluffy dogs about because he has a tendancy to chase them (look like rabbits!) but with big dogs he likes to play and herd with them. I think it's difficult to gage how other dogs are as well as yours unless you're in a very small park with owners you see regularly.

 

It's all about trial and error and if you have ANY doubts about your dogs temperament then put the muzzle on, it's better to be safe then sorry.

[GeorgeofNE]

This sounds like a potential disaster waiting to happen to me.

 

Three weeks is WAY too soon to be taking your dog to any offleash place in my opinion. And he isn't going to learn to "adapt" by observing rough play. He's going to get keyed up and want to join in.

 

Take him when no one else is there if you absolutely MUST. I've had my dog for five years, and he's been offleash about five times because he absolutely CANNOT be trusted around non greyhounds. In those five attempts to "let him run," his primary interest has been peeing on the fence. Don't feel he "has" to have the time to run. Simply isn't true. Plenty of walks and other stimulation is enough for most Greyhounds.

[a_daerr]

I just wanted to add one thing. it's not really a good idea to leave your dog muzzled in a group of un-muzzled dogs. For one, they can still attack and/or kill a small dog with a muzzle on. Secondly, it creates a dangerous situation if a fight broke out, as your dog would not be able to defend himself. Typically, the rule of thumb is everyone is muzzled, or no one is muzzled.

[Guest WhiteWave]

How long have you had your greyhound? If you don't know with absolute certainty that your greyhound is ok with smaller dogs, you shouldn't take him to a dog park. That could have tragic consequences for everyone.

 

 

Even dogs with low preydrive and good with other dogs can still go after a small dog. Ronon has always lived with small dogs and cats (off an on) since I've had him. He even will run in the yard with my Mom's cat when she is over. He was perfectly fine with my Mothers 3lb long haired Chihuahua.

 

But I was walking the dogs down a trail that passes a dog park. A co worker was inside with her dog and ask me to come in. There were only 2 dogs in there. A Beagle belonging to someone else and my co workers dog which was Whippet size, looks like a Dobe mix. Well she loved to run and play and I had my foster Dobe Brinks, Casper my Dogo and Ronon the Greyhound. All 5 dogs were fine. Then someone walks up, open the gate and lets in a Chihuahua. The Chi took off running the perimeter and all the dogs took off after it. Ronon who is phobic around people and had been shoved up my butt, took off like a bat out of hell after that little dog. He passed all the other dogs and was barreling towards the Chi and he was intense, focused on it and I'm pretty sure he would have killed it or if he had grabbed it the other dogs behind with would have grabbed it and tugged it, but it had been rainy all week and the ground was wet and Ronon slipped and went sliding when he made the turn too sharp. I was able to grab and leash him and the other 2 ladies there yelled enough at the idiot that he grabbed the dog and left.

 

So a dog who had never shown any real prey drive, can! I just don't think dog parks are safe places to take your dog. If you do go, I would find out less busy times and go then. Avoid it on weekends when it is full of dogs.

[Guest tsmith1]

Thank you all for your input.

[3greytjoys]

Thank you for asking. Yes, variety of opinions. My view in a nutshell: Humans can't run 45 miles per hour in an attempt to prevent a dog fight. Outside environments = game on. It's our legal responsibility as dog owners to keep our own dogs under control to ensure the safety of others. (BTW, after a lifetime of training, recall is never guaranteed for any dog breed, particularly a sighthound in prey tunnel vision zone. This includes chasing a plastic bag carried by a breeze).

 

1. Per your request: Thread re: Greyhound's play style at dog park. (My post #68, page 4.)

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/277897-should-i-be-concerned/page-4

 

2. The Lexus Project was originally founded to help a Greyhound on death row: http://thelexusproject.org/

 

3. Freddy was recently attacked (not in a dog park) but the photos illustrate how a Greyhound's thin skin can rip easily. http://www.greyhoundrescuerehab.org/freddy.html

 

 

Other GT threads will populate if searching dog park attack, etc. in "forums".

 

(Some GH adoption groups make it an easy decision for new adopters by requiring their adopters avoid public dog parks. Greyhound only play dates where all Greyhounds are muzzled are a safer option.)

[Guest tsmith1]

3greytjoys,

 

Thanks for your candor. After reading everyone's post, I have chosen not to go to the dog park for a year, until I have a better understanding of the breed. Additionally, I feel I owe the greyhound community at large which has fought so hard to rescue greyhounds from the track to take a more cautious method.

 

I know city planners are simply trying to provide an outlet for their residents and their dogs. Large urban areas don't have a lot of enclosed areas other than dog parks. So as more greyhounds get adopted (a great good) there are going to be an increasing pool of inexperienced greyhound dog owners. And that in turn will increase the likelihood attacks just based on the stats.

 

Has the greyhound community thought about seeking to develop better dog park designs? I was looking on the net and while there are numerous links to designs for basic structure, runoff, security etc. There isn't anything geared towards dog breed behavior. At the very least I think designing a dog park broken down alone the lines of sight, herding, retrieving, toys etc. would be much better served than by weight. And then have some weekdays that could be reserved for certain groups. I know in the past I had to reserve park slots for baseball and soccer practice, why not dog parks?

 

For me the biggest turn off on the dog park was the feces. For the past twenty years I've always washed off my dogs paws when they were in those parks. The city could recoup its maintenance fee at dog parks simply buy stationing a person to issue fines on the weekend to irresponsible dog owners who don't clean up after fiddo.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Baseball diamonds, where dogs are allowed...organize a greyhound play date there

[3greytjoys]

Has the greyhound community thought about seeking to develop better dog park designs? I know in the past I had to reserve park slots for baseball and soccer practice, why not dog parks?

 

Good idea re: design improvements dividing larger parks, particularly in areas with higher Greyhound population. Could be worthwhile to approach your city planners. (It would cost money, and some dog parks are last on the priority list.)

 

I completely agree re: reserving dog park time. Since dog parks are "public" parks, I was told we could not reserve a dog park strictly for Greyhound play dates. The city was okay with us unofficially arranging a weekly Greyhound only (muzzled) play date early one weekend morning in one of the city's least busy dog parks. Humans stood near the gate to politely ask other breed owners to use the empty secondary fenced space (designated for small dogs) during that hour. Dog park regulars were understanding, realizing they had every other hour throughout weeks/weekends to use the large dog space. Any rare time others became upset, the Greyhound group politely leashed up all hounds and departed calmly (sometimes taking a fun group leashed walk instead).

 

Ideally, if your Greyhound adoption group has any members that own a fairly large safely fenced property, some people will welcome hosting members of their GH group once a week or twice a month. (If strong interest, a sign-up sheet can keep the number of hounds to a safe number.) Donations and/or volunteer time can be offered to help owner with land maintenance.

 

Other options: Any fully fenced enclosure with safe, level ground material (grass or dirt). Possibly rent fenced yard space from a humane society, kennel, fairground fenced space, dog training facility, etc.

[GeorgeofNE]

Your little profile thingy doesn't say where you live--my town does not have a single park that allows dogs off leash. There are no fully fenced in fields either. As I said earlier, the belief that greyhounds "have" to run is a misconception.

 

Good for you for not being offended at all the advice you were offered, and actually reconsidering until a later time in your relationship with your dog!

[3greytjoys]

I agree with Susan (GeorgeofNE) and others that Greyhounds do very well with leashed walks.

 

In our case, we take "power walks" with our younger hounds that include periodic stops for hounds to leave pee mail and get excessive sniffies done. We all benefit from the exercise. When we used to do more Greyhound play dates, it was a bit of a bummer for the humans because the hounds were too tired to go hiking (or power walking) later. Thus, our lousy excuse for humans to be lazy on those days.

 

Whatever you do, enjoy your time with Sherlock. It's great fun to watch their personalities grow as they learn about their new forever people and retirement. As a_daerr knows well, obedience training is great for the hounds and helps their bonding process with us too. Nose work is fun, as is agility - if agility is in a fenced location.