Dog Attack

[christinepi]

Two weeks ago, Tracker was attacked by two off leash dogs (one a pit bull type dog, the other a mutt that seemed to have GSD in him and whatever else) that broke through a dilapidated fence. First off, Tracker "only" had 4-5 spots where the other dogs broke skin, and a number of scratches that removed some hair, but nothing that required stitches, so we were extremely lucky. I as kicking and screaming away at these dogs, until the owner came out and was able to grab her dogs by their collars. She was as shaken as I was, and felt terrible. Tracker was shaken like I've never seen him on the way back to the car, frequently looking back over his shoulder to make sure they weren't coming after him. I couldn't calm down for 2 hours after that, feeling like I had let him down by not carrying a spray etc, but he was fine, and didn't seem worse for the wear afterwards.

 

The Pit bull clearly was the instigator. The other one, the mutt, was jazzed up, but seemed more along for the ride and some "fun". Everything is a blur now, but I mostly remember a huge amount of barking, and my only kicking the pit bull. I still have an image burnt into my mind with the pit bull having her muzzle wrapped around Tracker's throat, but when I checked there was not a single hair missing of his throat fur. My question is: if dogs want to kill, they will. Considering the amount of frantic energy around, I expected this to end extremely badly, while in the middle of it. But considering the paper thins skin of greyhounds, and what damage a determined dog can havoc, and then considering the relatively mild damage actually did inflict, I can only come to the conclusion these two dogs didn't set out to kill/damage, even though they sure looked it the way they were thundering towards us. So what motivates dogs like that? Are they just out to release frustrations quickly (territorial/too little exercise/generally messed up), and once the energy has been released, they quickly calm down? Tracker also valiantly tried to fight back, or at the very least barked his head off (I can't really remember), which may have had an impact on the outcome. As soon as their owner had grabbed them, they just sat there, quietly and calmly, while she and I were talking.

 

At any rate, I know that we can thank our lucky stars that nothing worse happened.

[Remolacha]

I don't know. I was just thinking about this this morning. A few days ago, we were walking past a house that had recently sold, and a dog came charging out of either the house our the car (both doors were open). Luckily, we were across the street, and I was able to grab Fletcher and hold him close to me. Also luckily, the other dog (a Chow ) stopped to do the butt sniff thing with the girls, who were "whatever" and the owner managed to grab him and get him in the house before he got to Fletcher, so no harm done. What I wonder, and have everytime some loose dog comes running up, is don't they see Fletcher barking, snarling, lunging? This is a big, mostly white dog (very visible) who is CLEARLY not friendly. What are these dogs thinking? Are they just all worked up and *not* thinking, just reacting? Maybe someone who knows dog behavior has some answers, because I have seen it so often.

 

Glad Tracker was not seriously hurt!

[krissy]

What a terrible ordeal to go through, for both of you!

 

Not having been there to see what happened I think it's hard for anyone here to really answer that question. However, yes, if a dog wanted to truly inflict damage it could and therefore likely would, especially on a greyhound. Remember that most of the time dog fights are just a lot of bluster and it's mostly for show, rarely does anyone get really badly hurt. It's mostly posturing and a display of weaponry, a little throwing around of bodyweight and then usually one dog realizes he is outmatched and backs down.

 

In today's world things get a little more complicated. We often take puppies away from their litters at relatively young ages (8-10 weeks). More often than you'd like to realize, people do not properly socialize their puppies. Puppies then grow up to be either fearful/aggressive, or friendly but never having learned bite inhibition.

 

I've had each of my dogs attacked on separate occasions (by each one of my boss' two dogs ironically). Summit was attacked by their black lab X who was a rescue from up north. He full well meant to do some damage and Summit didn't back down. That ended with Summit having 3 puncture wounds. That dog was poorly socialized but actually had decent bite inhibition. For the scale of the fight, the amount of damage done was minimal. Honestly, if Summit had been a "regular" dog I doubt any skin would have been broken.

 

Recently their other dog attacked Kili. This dog is female and about 8 years old. They have had her since she was 8 weeks old. She is very intolerant of puppies. All Kili did was walk up to her and she lunged, bite, and left a huge gash on Kili's nose. Example of a generally non-aggressive, poorly socialized dog with really, really poor bite inhibition.

 

Summit told Kili off numerous times in the first couple of weeks after we brought her home. It is explosive, loud, and looks horrible. Most people would probably think he was trying to hurt her. And he always scales up in increments. First he'd lift his lip at her, then he'd snarl, then he'd air snap, finally he'd flip her and grab her around the neck while making horrible snarling noises. But it's all noise and show. He's never so much as bruised her. Well socialized dog with good bite inhibition.

 

What the problem was with the two that attacked Tracker could be a combination of things. Poorly socialized, territorial. Sounds like they probably had decent bite inhibition though. That's a blessing in disguise, trust me.

[Guest cwholsin]

It sounds like it was probably territorial. That sounds like a 'warning' scuffle. In my experience, there aren't very many dogs 'out to kill' other dogs. Other GTers who see any dog as a threat to their greyhounds will probably disagree with me on that. Don't beat yourself up over what happened. You didn't let your dog down. These things just happen sometimes. I'm happy that nobody was seriously injured, humans or dogs, and hopefully the other owner learned her lesson about proper containment too

 

Edited to add: The best thing you can do in these situations is stay calm and don't start reacting until you know what's going on. If a dog runs at you and Tracker and just wants to sniff or say hi, the last thing you want to do is push the situation into fear/aggression or teach Tracker that other dogs should be feared. We've had tons of off-leash encounters and I school myself to feel kinda 'bored' and it keeps my dogs calm and may have helped the strange dogs stay in a good place too (we've had territorial dogs come up to us before in shows of bravado).

Edited January 11, 2013 by cwholsin

[a_daerr]

Wow, how very frightening. I'm glad Tracker wasn't hurt.

 

I think there's something to be said for on- and off-leash behavior and the importance of leash laws. There is a huge, expansive park in Pittsburgh that I've taken to my dog occasionally, and it makes me very uncomfortable because I always see a ton of dogs there off-leash. When a dog comes running up to you, the first thing the owner always says is, "It's okay! He's friendly!" But what that person doesn't realize is that a dog who is on-leash is always in a more vulnerable state against one who is off-leash. They are not equals. Even though your dog may very well be friendly, my dog probably feels threatened, which could lead to bad communication and possibly a fight. Leashes aren't just tools to prevent your dog from running away. They are tools that we use to equalize dogs when they are forced to interact with each other in public places.

[Guest Giselle]

Your question actually highlights how much mystery still surrounds dog behavior. The fact is that we don't really know why or how, but we can surmise that most dogs probably don't attack to kill. That's why I agree with the below:

In my experience, there aren't very many dogs 'out to kill' other dogs.

In my opinion, most aggression is used in a constructive way. That sounds odd, but aggression is a social tool. And, in normal cases, aggression is highly ritualized and serves a social purpose. In my mind, normal aggressive acts would consist of an older dog snarling and doing a warning snap to a younger puppy. Out of context, though, aggression may be triggered by frustration and anxiety or lack of socialization. These out of context aggressive acts, however, are often mild and less injurious displays, just like "normal" aggression.

 

Dogs who attack to kill, however, are extremely abnormal, especially those who attack due to really miniscule triggers. I've only met 2 or 3 dogs that truly fit this description (my Dobermutt being one of them), and these dogs tend to show signs of extremely abnormal behavior beginning in puppyhood. If a dog attacked to kill, you wouldn't be able to break it up, and the damage would be severe. Luckily, these dogs are very few and far in between, and (maybe this is a good thing) most of these dogs would be euthanized rather than have a home. Aggression is a really fascinating subject

[christinepi]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply these dogs were out to kill Tracker, since they obviously left him in one piece (that was more of a hypothetical thought), nor that I think that dogs acting with the intent to kill fall into a normal category.

 

Krissy's comment on bite inhibition makes a lot of sense to me.

 

I wish I now (theoretically!) had a video of this whole event to watch it in detail, because it kind of fascinates me, too. Maybe this was like some people vent their frustration on the internet by hurling electronic insults at others but would rarely cause another person much physical harm...

 

What about dog park incidents that so often land dogs at the vet? There seems to be enough aggression out there that does end in stitches, or worse. Is the whole setup at a dog park more conducive to fights?

[Guest cwholsin]

No worries, you made it very clear that the dogs could've caused a lot of hurt if they had been trying to! My statement wasn't aimed at you, but at the greyhound owners who immediately jump to the conclusion that off-leash dog = out for blood, which is a terrible attitude to project onto your dogs.

 

Again, in my experience, people who say 'oh, he's friendly' are usually right. My concern is less about the dog off-leash and more about why the owner apparently isn't concerned that a leashed dog may be leashed because he ISN'T friendly. Not all dogs are leash-reactive, but some are and would bite if a dog approached. It's my job to do what I can to keep my dogs out of trouble. Some people, I guess, aren't as concerned about the possibility of another dog biting your friendly sociable one.

 

I would also like to say that being on leash does not mean that fearful aggression is the auto or standard response. It really does depend on the dog. It's way more common in insecure dogs who are more likely to go to that fight or flight place (where the leash takes away the flight option).

Edited January 11, 2013 by cwholsin

[Guest cwholsin]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply these dogs were out to kill Tracker, since they obviously left him in one piece (that was more of a hypothetical thought), nor that I think that dogs acting with the intent to kill fall into a normal category.

 

Krissy's comment on bite inhibition makes a lot of sense to me.

 

I wish I now (theoretically!) had a video of this whole event to watch it in detail, because it kind of fascinates me, too. Maybe this was like some people vent their frustration on the internet by hurling electronic insults at others but would rarely cause another person much physical harm...

 

What about dog park incidents that so often land dogs at the vet? There seems to be enough aggression out there that does end in stitches, or worse. Is the whole setup at a dog park more conducive to fights?

My perception of dog parks is that it very much depends on the park, the people there, and lastly the dogs. Also, the number of 'unbalanced' dogs (to use a Cesar term) and the pack mentality that tries to eradicate unbalanced behavior. I've been going to dog parks for 2.5 years on a weekly basis or more and have not witnessed more than minor injuries. Hermes hurts himself way more often than a dog getting hurt via another dog. Personally, I think the biggest issue is irresponsible owners. I think you'll generally be fine if you stay away from people who are not monitoring their dogs. Some people think dog parks are terrible for dogs, but frankly, the dog park was one of the most helpful tools in teaching Hermes to socialize properly (he was clueless about dog ettiquette when we brought him home). There are definitely some not so safe dog parks out there, though. We had one that was never too crowded and generally had a good mix of dogs.

 

And as for the horror stories about dog park trips... I think the bad incidents are sensationalized, and that if you compare the number of trips with nothing happening vs. injuries it probably isn't that common.

Edited January 11, 2013 by cwholsin

[Guest Giselle]

Also, the number of 'unbalanced' dogs (to use a Cesar term) and the pack mentality that tries to eradicate unbalanced behavior.

No, I strongly disagree. The fact of the matter is that dogs are NOT pack animals. Many studies (search for them; I've included the journal articles in past posts on GT) have come to the very solid conclusion that free-ranging dogs choose NOT to associate as packs. They don't NEED that tight social cohesion. Why? Well, for one, animal groups serve a purpose - protection or food or sex. For dogs, they evolved as scavengers and are highly promiscuous. They don't need packs; thus, they actually do not congregate in natural packs and mostly prefer to be single or paired. Thus, the idea of a "pack mentality" as "fixing unbalanced" animals is totally inappropriate when speaking about companion dogs.

 

I also don't think it's helpful to think in terms of "balanced" or "unbalanced" ("Cesar's terms" are unscientific and unfounded in anything but anecdotes). I don't mean for any of my posts to imply that we know nothing about aggression or dog behavior. We don't know as much about dog aggression as, say, human schizophrenia. But we know a lot about animal aggression and we are learning more about dog behavior. Science has shown that aggression can be a product of frustration. This is true for people and has been proven true for animals. Look up the "Pigeon frustration" experiments. If you frustrate a pigeon and stick a neighbor next to him, he'll attack the neighbor. Recent neurological and endocrinology studies have helped us to understand the biological/brain processes that factor into these events, as well. And, believe it or not, people have done a fair amount of studies on dog parks. So, what we know that is that dog parks can be chaotic and they can foster a lot of frustration. We know that frustration can be an impetus for aggressive acts. We know that, physiologically, the body changes during aggression and that many impulse control behaviors become dampened - which could lead to more severe damage. That's why dog parks are often sources of fights and fatal ones, at that.

 

Adding the pigeon experiment I mentioned above. It's an oldie but goodie!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1338179/

Edited January 11, 2013 by Giselle

[christinepi]

I don't believe in the pack thing either. From everything I've read, too, feral dogs don't live in packs, because the reasons wolves live in packs don't apply to dogs. I think this term is just being used sloppily and scientifically incorrectly when, for example, several dogs at the dog park that may not even all know each other, suddenly gang up on one specific individual and attack it. That seems to be a temporary "acting like a pack/group", but it doesn't imply that dogs therefore ARE pack/group animals. But what is it then that can make a bunch of perhaps mostly strange dogs gang up on another? Is is just like people who can act mob like if they get swept up in the moment, or are drunk or whatever?

 

At any rate, the explanation for Tracker's suffering the attack as being the deed of frustrated animals makes a lot of sense to me.

[Guest cwholsin]

Examples of unbalanced as I'm using it: fixated on a toy/object/another dog, emotionally unbalanced, having health issues, poor social skills. I've seen it time and time again. Why do people gang up on an individual? Read the reasons above... A lot of them are the same: a particular individual stands out as weird or acting diffently from the norm. Kind of a weird parallel, huh?

 

And I agree about the frustration/aggression hypothesis. Aggressive behavior doesn't come out of thin air! Usually comes from a strong feeling of one kind or another that doesn't have an outlet. This is why I wish more dog owners were dedicated to giving their pets the exercise they need!

 

Oh, and I wasn't making a statement about whether or not the pack behavior existed outside of the park, but it definitely does inside of it. Dogs are social animals, and a group of dogs in a park will usually form some kind of social group, the dynamics of which vary on the individuals involved. Call it whatever you like

Edited January 12, 2013 by cwholsin

[brianamac]

Two weeks ago, Tracker was attacked by two off leash dogs (one a pit bull type dog, the other a mutt that seemed to have GSD in him and whatever else) that broke through a dilapidated fence. First off, Tracker "only" had 4-5 spots where the other dogs broke skin, and a number of scratches that removed some hair, but nothing that required stitches, so we were extremely lucky. I as kicking and screaming away at these dogs, until the owner came out and was able to grab her dogs by their collars. She was as shaken as I was, and felt terrible. Tracker was shaken like I've never seen him on the way back to the car, frequently looking back over his shoulder to make sure they weren't coming after him. I couldn't calm down for 2 hours after that, feeling like I had let him down by not carrying a spray etc, but he was fine, and didn't seem worse for the wear afterwards.

 

The Pit bull clearly was the instigator. The other one, the mutt, was jazzed up, but seemed more along for the ride and some "fun". Everything is a blur now, but I mostly remember a huge amount of barking, and my only kicking the pit bull. I still have an image burnt into my mind with the pit bull having her muzzle wrapped around Tracker's throat, but when I checked there was not a single hair missing of his throat fur. My question is: if dogs want to kill, they will. Considering the amount of frantic energy around, I expected this to end extremely badly, while in the middle of it. But considering the paper thins skin of greyhounds, and what damage a determined dog can havoc, and then considering the relatively mild damage actually did inflict, I can only come to the conclusion these two dogs didn't set out to kill/damage, even though they sure looked it the way they were thundering towards us. So what motivates dogs like that? Are they just out to release frustrations quickly (territorial/too little exercise/generally messed up), and once the energy has been released, they quickly calm down? Tracker also valiantly tried to fight back, or at the very least barked his head off (I can't really remember), which may have had an impact on the outcome. As soon as their owner had grabbed them, they just sat there, quietly and calmly, while she and I were talking.

 

At any rate, I know that we can thank our lucky stars that nothing worse happened.

 

SO SO sorry this happened to you guys. I do hope Tracker doesn't sustain any emotional damage that affects his daily routine as a result.

It's great that the owner was upset about the situation too.

Our dog was attacked while on leash by an off-leash rottweiler (nothing against the breed itself) back in August, but the owner was MUCH less accommodating than the owner you encountered. So in my experience, the attack arose from an owner that trains/encourages his dog to be an intimidation tool. Not applicable in your case, so I have no advice on that front.

How is Tracker doing now though? Is he going for walks like normal after the attack or is he having issues?

Normal walk are still an issue we deal with on a daily basis, post-attack.

[christinepi]

Thanks for asking--this was a major concern of mine. He's always been supremely confident and mellow with everything. I'm happy to report that he's been his usual self in almost every way. There was one situation though when he did act differently: we were walking along a country road, when we came up on a long driveway to someone's residence. At the end of that long drive (I'm a terrible guesser, but it was maybe 80 yards long) the resident dog (off leash) appeared and barked at us. But he only stood there, barking, and didn't move towards us at all. Tracker's hackles went up immediately and he accelerated away from the driveway, clearly uncomfortable. So both the raising of the hackles and his acceleration are behaviors I know he wouldn't have shown in the past--he would have stopped, stared, and tried to approach. As soon as we put a few feet of distance between the driveway and ourselves he completely relaxed again. So there's definitely been SOME impact.

 

Otherwise he's been fine. I am so grateful for that. I'm sorry you, or rather your dog, still have to deal with the trauma. It's heart breaking that a dog's confidence can be so drastically affected in a few seconds and be so hard to get back to where it had been, all because of some irresponsible idiot. In my case, as you said, at least the owner was apologetic. She actually is the renter of a cabin that is owned by friends of ours who live in their own house right next to the cabin. We reported this incident to them and also to Animal Care. Our friends told us that there have been ongoing issues with those two dogs in terms of barking for hours and apparently some other stuff, and the attack on Tracker was the straw that broke the camel's back and they'd have her get rid of the dogs (or leave with them). At least I'll be able to walk on that road again sometime in the near future without having to worry.

Edited January 13, 2013 by christinepi