Certified Animal Behaviour Consultant - Worth It?

[Guest newgreymama]

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to let him pee or poop when he needs to? A belly band on a walk would be totally inappropriate, and ineffective. It won't stop him from peeing, it will just get soaked.

 

If you don't want to spend your whole walk stopping to sniff every 2 seconds, then take about 10 minutes to give him free reign and empty out as much as he likes, then shorten the lead and pick up the pace. Periodically tell him "go play" and loosen the leash and slow down so he can mark some. Then shorten the leash, say "let's go" and pick up the pace again. He'll eventually get that sometimes we just walk briskly without sniffing. I have 2 dogs that mark, a male and female and if I didn't give them those opportunities periodically they wouldn't empty out. In the morning, we walk for 20-30 minutes and that's all we do - take our time and they mark to their hearts content. If we don't, Zuri especially doesn't fully empty and we sometimes have accidents.

 

This is what we do, and it works quite well. Cora would get terribly bored if we never let her sniff. She learned very quickly that when we keep the leash short, we want her to keep up with us and when we let the leash out she can do as she pleases.

 

Good luck--I hope the trainer works out well for you!

[antisense]

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to let him pee or poop when he needs to? A belly band on a walk would be totally inappropriate, and ineffective. It won't stop him from peeing, it will just get soaked.

 

It's not that we are annoyed by having to stop every few feet to mark, it's that we've been letting him mark in the park we always pass through on walks, and now he seems to get very aggravated whenever he sees another dog in the park (territorial maybe? dunno). He pees when we first leave home, then we go for a walk and it's all business - no stopping to mark, just walk - until we get to the park. At the park he gets to sniff around at the entrance and check his p-mail, and potty if he wants. We stop again at the end of the park to potty. He doesn't even try to mark anymore while we're walking through the park, and he always has good long pees whenever we do stop at his designated potty spots, and has been reliably pooping as we leave the park. However, on the sidewalk while going back home, he will lift his leg while walking and pee on the sidewalk! That's kinda awkward... He's almost peed on my leg a few times. We've tried to walk faster when we notice him about to go for it, but that doesn't seem to stop him. Maybe that will just be one of his quirks.

 

Very conflicted over whether or not kicking and scraping the ground with his feet after potty is a good or bad thing. Some sources say it's a dominance thing, some sources say it's just normal doggy communication. I'll be sure to ask the behaviorist

[NeylasMom]

Sorry, but I kind of still don't get it. My guess is if he's peeing like that on the way back home there's a good chance it's because he knows you're almost back and he's not empty yet. Zuri certainly knows the walks we take routinely and will often go at the last minute when he knows he's almost out of time. I've added a "last chance" cue to actually help my dogs get that so they'll finish up if we have to take a shorter walk because of time constraints.

 

The feet kicking is a normal marking behavior that doesn't have anything to do with behavioral issues as far as I know. Zuri marks, but doesn't kick. Violet marks and kicks, Skye doesn't mark, but does kick. None of my dogs have aggression or serious behavioral issues - Zuri likes to play fun police but otherwise is an easy going dog, Violet is a total wuss when challenged (shrieks and cowers) and Skye is a baby (just turned 1 but very much a puppy still). I wouldn't worry about it.

[BatterseaBrindl]

Sorry, but I kind of still don't get it. My guess is if he's peeing like that on the way back home there's a good chance it's because he knows you're almost back and he's not empty yet. Zuri certainly knows the walks we take routinely and will often go at the last minute when he knows he's almost out of time. I've added a "last chance" cue to actually help my dogs get that so they'll finish up if we have to take a shorter walk because of time constraints.

 

The feet kicking is a normal marking behavior that doesn't have anything to do with behavioral issues as far as I know. Zuri marks, but doesn't kick. Violet marks and kicks, Skye doesn't mark, but does kick. None of my dogs have aggression or serious behavioral issues - Zuri likes to play fun police but otherwise is an easy going dog, Violet is a total wuss when challenged (shrieks and cowers) and Skye is a baby (just turned 1 but very much a puppy still). I wouldn't worry about it.

 

 

I wouldn't worry about the kicking out. I think it's just their way of spreading their scent

Nixon an Nigel are the kickers, but they only do it after they've peed at the end of our neighbours laneway. They have a nice Black Lab who obviously pees there all the time and my guys just want to say "Hi Max...we were here today"

 

Good luck with Kerry. He has a fabulous reputation.

[antisense]

Sorry, but I kind of still don't get it. My guess is if he's peeing like that on the way back home there's a good chance it's because he knows you're almost back and he's not empty yet. Zuri certainly knows the walks we take routinely and will often go at the last minute when he knows he's almost out of time. I've added a "last chance" cue to actually help my dogs get that so they'll finish up if we have to take a shorter walk because of time constraints.

 

The feet kicking is a normal marking behavior that doesn't have anything to do with behavioral issues as far as I know. Zuri marks, but doesn't kick. Violet marks and kicks, Skye doesn't mark, but does kick. None of my dogs have aggression or serious behavioral issues - Zuri likes to play fun police but otherwise is an easy going dog, Violet is a total wuss when challenged (shrieks and cowers) and Skye is a baby (just turned 1 but very much a puppy still). I wouldn't worry about it.

He will pee on the sidewalk one block after he just has a long pee in the park. I think he just really want to mark. I don't think it's a a matter of running out of time because he does get a "last chance" pee time along the stretch of grass with poles and trees right outside our apartment building. He will sniff around here, and sometimes pees, sometimes he doesn't.

 

The kicking is really cute when any of my dogs have done it, so if it's a harmless thing then I'm really happy to let him keep doing it! The toy poodle I grew up with (who still lives out west with my mother) was a very enthusiastic kicker.

[Guest Giselle]

How did the visit from the behaviorist go?

 

Word of caution: The "Shibashake" website you posted is made by a layperson who, from my observations, has a limited knowledge of animal behavior and who does notapproach it from a scientific viewpoint. Please use his advice with extreme caution.

[antisense]

I noticed some of what the Shiva in guy was saying was contradictinf handouts from animal shelters and advocacy groups. For the moment were just avoiding anything that may cause a reaction until we can get professional advice. Not going to try any more interventions on case we inadvertantly make things worse.

 

Visit is next week as this week he had an urgent case (dog in quarantine may get put down kind of case)

 

I will definitely share what his opinion is in case it helps anyone else here

[Guest grey_dreams]

... However, on the sidewalk while going back home, he will lift his leg while walking and pee on the sidewalk! That's kinda awkward... He's almost peed on my leg a few times. We've tried to walk faster when we notice him about to go for it, but that doesn't seem to stop him. ...

 

This behavior really communicates that he is not empty, he can see the end of the walk close, and he is trying to empty. Unless you measure his water intake, cellular output, and urine output, it might be best not to judge whether what you perceive to be "a good long pee" is really emptying his bladder completely. If you don't want to let him stop and "mark" in the park, maybe you can find other grassy/weedy areas where you can walk along slowly and allow him to sniff and pee? I have one dog that never empties completely, even during a 2-hour walk, he will always have something in reserve. It's his nature to pee in as many places as possible during the walk. I do a mix of what others have said, allowing him some freedom to express his normal nature, and some time for dedicated walking without stopping.

[Guest mld]

The rescue where we got our Garland was founded by a Certified Canine Behavior & Aggression Therapist/Trainer. As a member she is free of charge for her services. Positive training is so important, praise for the good things however small.

[Guest Giselle]

Let us know how the visit goes! And I'm glad that you're seeking information and are able to keep an open mind and critical eye Your dog is very lucky to have a committed owner like you. Keep us updated!

[antisense]

We met with Kerry today, and he was quickly able to tell that JJ is a very anxious dog and reacts aggressively when fearful. He is concerned because is appears JJ will very likely bite if provoked. This seems consistent with our observations when out for walks and at the vet.

 

He's given us clear directions on how we can reinforce our leadership status to help him be less anxious in general, specifically by control all resources including food, toys, sleeping area, and attention (essentially NILF)

-Have him see us eat immediately prior to when he gets to eat

-Give him access to toys only when we give them to him

-Having him leashed occasionally at home and tugging on it to get him off his bed and then sitting on his bed ourselves (JJ has never been allowed on the people bed or the couch)

-Wait at the door before going out

-Groom him frequently (In the canine world, the groomer has higher status. Conversely in the primate world, the groomee is the one with higher status)

 

He also discussed learning theory, and showed us how to teach the "look" command: to have JJ stop/stay and make eye contact with us (and ignore all else). The more we can practice this the better (Ideally 150 times a day! Though he acknowledges that this is pretty impossible for nearly everyone), so that when we are outside and surrounded by distractions and people and other dogs, we can take him to the side and keep him calm. Also, he hopes this (in combination with leadership training) will encourage JJ to look to us to make the decisions in an uncomfortable situation on how he should proceed.

 

He did suggest changing JJ's diet, which I am not in complete agreement with. (Discussed here: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/292631-aggression-and-protein-content-of-food/)

 

Our vet had already suggested it, but he would like us to consider drug therapy (eg: Prozac/fluoxetine) if we don't see drastic improvement with just behavior intervention in 4 weeks since we do not know whether this aggression is a learned behavior from his racing past, or if he has an endogenous neurochemical disorder that simply makes him a more aggressive dog. It might be used temporarily, or it might be used indefinitely. I am a pharmacist, and I do fully support the use of mood medications in humans when there is a demonstrated need, but for personal/cultural reasons I simply feel uncomfortable using them in dogs.

 

Our goal is to be able to walk JJ without him displaying any aggression towards people or dogs walking past us on the same sidewalk.

I would like to be able to take him to the dog park so he can run freely off leash, though this might never be possible.

We certainly could continue the way things have been as we can control him while he is muzzled and on leash, but it is certainly not what we had ideally wanted in a dog.

 

I'll update again later with our progress!

[Guest Giselle]

Great update! I agree with most of the advice, but I'm admittedly still a little concerned about the "leaders-eat-before-their-dogs" idea. To my knowledge, people studying canine social structures generally don't support this idea because dogs understand that we are mixed-species households. As I understand it, these acts - eating before them, sitting on furniture, etc. - don't seem to tell dogs anything useful. I do agree, however, that you should control all resources by requiring the dog to earn it. Before he eats, though, he shouldn't have to watch you eat first. Instead, the dog would automatically refrain from eating and wait for the command, "Okay!", to release him to eat. This video may be helpful for seeing how it works in action:

 

I also agree that this same principle should apply to all resources. Before the dog earns a toy, he must Sit. Before the dog gets to walk outside, he must Sit. And the dog should do all of these behaviors automatically. When it is automatic, it means that the dog is initiating self-control. In other words, when you open the door, you shouldn't have to say, "JJ, Sit!". Instead, the open door itself should be the cue for JJ to automatically sit. Here's an example of how to shape this automatic behavior:

http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/stellah_sits_for_excited_petting

 

And I made this video for the other thread, "Leash Aggression", but here it is again. This video shows the step-by-step approach for reaching your goal - walking comfortably and confidently in public with a relaxed, focused dog:

[BatterseaBrindl]

Glad you got some good feedback from Kerry.

 

I agree about the drugs...I think they should be a last resort.

JJ has made a lot of progress in a short period of time ...look at how much better he was at his most recent visit to the vet!

 

If you want other dogs to start having short, quiet interactions with JJ, just let me know.

Nixon is super laid back and unflappable.

[antisense]

I do agree, however, that you should control all resources by requiring the dog to earn it. Before he eats, though, he shouldn't have to watch you eat first. Instead, the dog would automatically refrain from eating and wait for the command, "Okay!", to release him to eat.

 

I also agree that this same principle should apply to all resources. Before the dog earns a toy, he must Sit. Before the dog gets to walk outside, he must Sit. And the dog should do all of these behaviors automatically. When it is automatic, it means that the dog is initiating self-control. In other words, when you open the door, you shouldn't have to say, "JJ, Sit!". Instead, the open door itself should be the cue for JJ to automatically sit.

 

Thank you for sharing those videos.

JJ already does wait for his meals. We put a handful of food into his bowl which he is not allowed to eat until he makes eye contact with us, and we say "OK, take it" We'll give him a few more bites "for free" and then he will have to wait again. We also ask for "sit's" or "lie down's" before mealtimes and he's been quite good at it. We're going to try having him watch us eat before he gets to eat since I figure there's little harm in trying. We only plan to eat a snack though, not a meal, or else his meals might end up being over an hour late and we're trying to keep him on a consistent schedule.

 

He did have free access to his toybox before and he would pick out toys at will to play with. We moved his toybox today on top of some drawers where he can't reach. Tonight we made him lie down before getting a toy.

 

We do already ask for a wait at almost every door (he doesn't wait at the doors with the slippery tile floor because he will sometimes freeze there). We have to ask for a "Wait" though, he doesn't do it automatically.

He does automatically wait with a loose leash at the crosswalk while on walks, unless he is really worked up about something. We plan to get him to "Look" at us at crosswalks once we can get him to do it reliably indoors.

 

There's still lots of work to be done, and it's going to be challenging to make sure my boyfriend and I are always consistent.

 

If you want other dogs to start having short, quiet interactions with JJ, just let me know.

Nixon is super laid back and unflappable.

 

Since coming to live with us, he has yet to meet another greyhound. Apparently while in foster care, he was terrifically behaved around all their greyhounds.

I'd love for him to meet some of your crew, I just don't know when as I want to make sure it will be safe to do so.

 

 

Just thought I'd add, I asked about the whole marking and kicking thing, and Kerry's personal opinion is that while nobody's done a study on it, it's likely harmless.

[BatterseaBrindl]

Nixon and I will be heading into KIngston on Sunday afternoon...he'll be doing some 'Pet Therapy' with some stressed Queen's students who are preparing for their exams.

Let me know if you want JJ to have a short meeting with him.....