Hypothyroid And Murmur

[Guest bernadette]

I am opening this as a follow up to my thread about possibly becoming a hypochondriac for my Vinnie.

 

The vet just called, all of Vinnie's blood work was normal except for his thyroid, which the lab just showed as 'less than 4'. He is requesting a more detail in order to be safe. He did say that hypothyroidism and a heart condition can go hand in hand.

 

He suggested that I limit Vinnie's activity given the fact that he is mouth breathing when he walks out the door and for the duration of his walks. He reiterated the cardiologist suggestion and told me the one I found is exceptional.

 

Vinnie still has no interest in his dog food (since Friday) but he did scarf some scrambled eggs earlier today.

 

We just got home from our afternoon walk (only 10-15 min)... I don't know if I was imagining it, but it seemed maybe two or three times that his right hind leg had a little trouble coming up under him while walking, like he was dragging a little bit. I will look at this more during our night walk... not sure if I was really seeing that.

 

I had a feeling something was wrong with him. I knew it because I know my dog. I want to think that he is going to be ok and has years and years ahead of him but that same feeling tells me maybe not. Maybe I am just in shock by these changes that seem to have come on so quickly.

[tbhounds]

Sight hounds (including greyhounds) tend to have very low T4 results. A result of >0.4 is not uncommon and does not mean your hound is hypothyroid. To determine if your hound is indeed truly hypothyroid a full thyroid panel needs to be run. At the very least a Free T4 and more importantly a cTSH needs to be run.

Be prepared for a lot of feedback- - hypothyroidism is a hot hot topic here. Just to give you a heads up- I am in the camp where I feel hypothyroidism is rare in Ghs and it is the most misdiagnosed condition with sight hounds.

Again, I will encourage you to read the OSU health and wellness link.

[Guest bernadette]

I believe the vet knows that which is why he asked the lab to retest the blood for more detail. He is being careful. He also told me, given the fact that Vinnie is symptomatic, that is we are looking at cardiomyopathy that the prognosis may not be good. I am trying to soak this all in.

 

Thank yoou so much for your thoughts.

[tbhounds]

Can I ask??? Why didn't your vet do a chest radiograph??

[Guest bernadette]

I don't know. I wish I had known that he should have had one. He referred us to the cardiologist for all testing.

[greyhead]

It sounds like your vet has ordered further thyroid testing, which is good. You can look in the GT archives and find a lot of argument about hypothyroidism and greyhounds. I'm in the camp that thinks that the fact that greyhounds may be hypothyroid less often than other breeds doesn't really matter if your dog is truly hypothyroid. Googling canine hypothyroidism -- or even human -- may tell you a lot about all the things affected by thyroid function, and it may even make you feel better about the situation. Some dogs have been pulled back from the brink by thyroid supplementation.

 

ETA: The last couple posts happened while I was composing this one. I'm not meaning to blow by the chest-rad issue.

Edited May 27, 2012 by greyhead

[Guest bernadette]

I myself am 'hyper'... this really never crossed my mind for him, although I have had glimpses into the debate in the past, not realizing I would need to get more involved in the future for my own pup.

[tbhounds]

Forgot to ask-- I'm assuming your vet received your hounds bloodwork results. Anything else out of the reference range?? Liver/renal values ok?

Also, for piece of mine- I would ask your vet to snap a few thoracic rads (maybe abdomen too) and run an EKG-- that way you have the results to determine if you really need to see a cardiologist. Not sure why he's / she's turfing these diagnostics to a specialist when they can be done right at your own vets office.

[Guest bernadette]

Everything else was completely normal with his blood work.

[tbhounds]

Everything else was completely normal with his blood work.

Good news-- call them tomorrow and insist on further diagnostics-- if you feel your boy isn't right than its their job to determine what's wrong. Not dissing your vet here but, if they aren't capable of doing so then, it's time for a new vet.

[Guest bernadette]

I don't think he is capable of doing an EKG in his office which is why he referred me to a cardiologist. I think I'd rather go straight to the specialist for peace of mind, couldn't they cover those bases and then some with regards to his heart? He deteremined a 3 out of 5 murmur and feels a cardio workup is necessary. It stinks... my daughter is epileptic and I have my own thyroid issues... you are so much at the mercy of these doctors to guide you, help you, inform you. I have always said you are your animals advocate (or your childs). I am trying my best to be Vinnie's. Thank you TBHounds so much for your input- it is so appreciated.

[KF_in_Georgia]

My 12-year-old has been on thyroid meds since he was 3. My vet was reluctant to test Sam at that young age, but Sam started losing hair drastically along his thighs and his throat and chest. I'd had him for nearly a year and Sam never raced, so this was not a problem with a retired racer blowing his farm or kennel coat, and lab results confirmed that Sam was hypothyroid. Today, Sam's got a lot going on at his advanced age (spinal arthritis, something icky in his lungs showing on a chest x-ray), but the thyroxine hasn't caused problems. Hypothyroidism--if that's actually a problem for your boy--is easy to control with inexpensive meds.

[tbhounds]

Ok- really trying not to diss your vet but, if they can't run an EKG you need to find a new vet. Running an EKG is basic, basic diagnostic test.

Do you have an appointment if a cardio yet?

Please keep us posted.

[45MPHK9]

You can email all of Vinnie's test results to OSU and have them take a look. We used this service last summer. It's free, and you'll know that the greyhound specialists will have weighed in on what may be bothering Vinnie. I hope you can get some answers soon.

 

Here's the link to OSU. (Apologies if this was already posted.)

 

https://greyhound.osu.edu/consultationservice/consultation/

[Guest bernadette]

I really don't know about the EKG. I can find out why he didn't the next time we speak. We have an appointment on Tuesday with the cardiologist.

 

45MPH, thank you so much. I had emailed OSU yesterday in trying to get information on the holosystolic murmur vs systolic, etc. (I was only finding info on greys having systolic). I will send them his test results as well.

 

Vinnie hasn't nibbled my chin in so long, he just came and gave me a kiss and a nibble. I love this dog.

[Batmom]

{{{{{{{{{{Vinnie}}}}}}}}}}

 

I can see a smaller vet practice not having EKG equipment. And it may be your vet felt that what he was hearing warranted a specialist.

 

Hope it all turns out to be something minor!

 

 

 

ETA: Not sure what further tests your vet is running but I wouldn't supplement thyroid without a high TSH, low fT4, and a completed EKG. Regardless of any other arguments, adding thyroid meds for a dog with a heart problem is a very bad idea unless the dog truly is hypothyroid (and not just, say, testing low because he has another illness).

Edited May 28, 2012 by Batmom

[tbhounds]

{{{{{{{{{{Vinnie}}}}}}}}}}

 

I can see a smaller vet practice not having EKG equipment. And it may be your vet felt that what he was hearing warranted a specialist.

 

Hope it all turns out to be something minor!

 

 

 

ETA: Not sure what further tests your vet is running but I wouldn't supplement thyroid without a high TSH, low fT4, and a completed EKG. Regardless of any other arguments, adding thyroid meds for a dog with a heart problem is a very bad idea unless the dog truly is hypothyroid (and not just, say, testing low because he has another illness).

Sorry cant see a vet practice not having a very basic EKG machine. If they don't I would be very very reluctant to let them anesthetize one of my pets. An EKG machine is very basic clinic equipment.

Perhaps I just don't understand how this vet can hand an awful diagnosis to an owner by only simply asculting the pet. I'm all for seeking a specialist opinion but, for the vet to not run further tests- esp before a holiday weekend just doesn't make sense. What if this hound has pleural effusion....??

Edited May 28, 2012 by tbhounds

[Guest bernadette]

Thank you, Batmom. I definitely have no plans on medicating for the thyroid anytime soon. I am anxious to see how the cardio visit turns out on Tuesday. Thank you for your very kind thoughts and support.

[tbhounds]

Thank you, Batmom. I definitely have no plans on medicating for the thyroid anytime soon. I am anxious to see how the cardio visit turns out on Tuesday. Thank you for your very kind thoughts and support.

Please keep us posted. Hugs to your boy.

[duncan41]

I heard a very wise man say, "I treat symptoms, not blood tests." Greyhounds fall into that grey area - pun intended - a breed that can have almost nonexistent T4 and Free T4 and have no symptoms, and dogs with low/normal thyroid and be very sick. I have one that falls into the latter category. Her T4 was .7 but her TSH was .68. With minimal dosing (.3mg in the am and .4mg in the pm) her T4 is still .7, but the TSH is .12 the last time it was checked. Oh, and she is back to 90% of her former self! Hooray!

The best choice is a complete panel run by Michigan State University, including T4, Free T4 by equilibrium dialysis, T3, Free T3 and TSH. Of course, since you have thyroid issues, you already knew the necessary tests. And just to blow off a little steam here, I fail to understand why Vets don't even offer the option of a complete panel if a thyroid issue is suspected. I caught my own (new) Vet about to do that very thing; order just T4 for a dog that has been on thyroid meds for 7 months! Why pay for tests twice? If the T4 comes back questionable, a full panel will be done anyway, so why not do it from the "get-go"??? Especially when the dog is obviously ill????

Then there is the possibility of the dog being sick euthryoid. But it sounds like there's a lot going on. Have blood pressure readings been done?

So many questions with no answers right now. Once you have all the test results, and if there are still questions, a consultation with OSU would definitely be in order.

 

In the meantime, we're all here pulling for you and Vinnie. Sending our best wishes, hugs and prayers.

[Guest bernadette]

Thank you. The support here is invaluable, I just wish we didn't need it.

[KF_in_Georgia]

And just to blow off a little steam here, I fail to understand why Vets don't even offer the option of a complete panel if a thyroid issue is suspected. I caught my own (new) Vet about to do that very thing; order just T4 for a dog that has been on thyroid meds for 7 months! Why pay for tests twice? If the T4 comes back questionable, a full panel will be done anyway, so why not do it from the "get-go"??? Especially when the dog is obviously ill????

I think often the vet expects good numbers from the T4, in which case I think the full panel supposedly is not necessary. If a dog is on thyroxine and showing no signs of problems, why run the full panel? And don't you get skewed numbers on the full panel if the dog is already taking thyroid supplements? I seem to remember reading you need to stop the supplements and wait until the thyroxine supplement is out of the dog's system before running a full panel if you think the dog is having problems. But if you know the dog is (or was) hypothyroid because of a previous full panel, and know the dog is on meds and tested well seven months earlier, why put the dog through the ups and downs of withdrawing meds so you can run a full panel on a dog that is showing no symptoms of trouble? I think that is when many vets run only a T4--to determine whether they need to put a healthy dog through the ups and downs of medication adjustments. Of course you'd need a full panel if the dog is showing trouble, but many supplemented dogs aren't having problems and don't need the additional tests.

[Guest bernadette]

Vinnie had a tough time falling asleep tonight. Lots of very fast panting and a little whining (usually he comes up and goes right to sleep). It scared me, I was prepared to run him to the ER. I laid down next to him and eventually his breathing slowed to where he could lay down and stay down and fall asleep (his panting had been keeping him from laying down, he had to keep raising his head to pant).

My room is about 70-75 degrees at the most.

I am anxious to see cardiologist Tuesday but I don't know if we can wait that long.

[tbhounds]

Personally, I would take him to the ER today. He made indeed have something else going on. Did you mention he was limping?

The ER will be able to run the proper diagnostics.

IMO waiting till Tuesday doesn't make sense.

[GeorgeofNE]

It may not make you feel better, but a heart murmer diagnose can be very subjective. I was told my last dog had a serious problem requiring all sorts of testing--and a few days later a different vet laughed out loud at that assessment. Told me my dog had one of the strongest heartbeats he'd ever heard and suggested the previous vet might need a new stethoscope.