Guest 4dogscrazy Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Hi Everyone! This is my new foster Aspen. I don't normally foster...so here's his story: Aspen arrived at the kennel in November. He's been there since then, and now he is not thriving. He was depressed and of course you know that means he is not showing well. I decided to bring him home, just to give him a break. Couple things...he can stay here as long as necessary, but he is a foster and we are actively trying to find him a home. His problems? He was urinating in his kennel at night. I haven't had any problems with that here, my dogs go in and out sseveral a million times a day and I have a belly band on him when I am not home, and overnight. The big problem: he resource guards his toys. We saw this at the kennel, all along, and he never did get over it. This is how it happens: he saw a stuffy outside my house yesterday in the yard. Several times he went over to it and tried to pick it up, but he was muzzled and wasn't successful. Today I let him and the oldest, most even tempered, of my dogs outside with him unmuzzled, and he picked up the stuffy. He wouldn't come in without it and wouldn't let me near him with his muzzle (he's not dumb!) so I let him bring it inside. All the other dogs were already muzzled, so I wasn't worried. He dropped it in the middle of the living room and stood guard over it. Growling and showing teeth for several minutes. I calmly popped his muzzle back on while he was in the middle of his fit. The other dogs and myself basically ignored him. He would look at me, look at the stuffy, look at the other dogs and growl. I do not want to scold for growling...so how then do I get across to him that this behavior is unwanted? Clearly I could remove all the stuffies, and then he would learn nothing. And what happens when he gets to his new home and decides a pair of rolled up socks is HIS? Obviously we know he positively can not go into a home with children. As far as food goes, I am feeding him behind a gate in a separate room so I have no idea what he would do. My bet is it wouldn't end well. I also don't know if he was growling at ME either. I just held out the muzzle the right way and popped it on his face. He IS thoroughly enjoying living in a home. He loves all the beds and people around, and is actually quite mellow for how young he is! He is the only dog I have ever brought into my home who absolutely had to look into every single closet and drawer you open to see what's in there. I have no idea if he would get into trouble if left unmuzzled when alone, that's not an option in my house with 3 other greys, a cat, and my lab who is elderly and dying of cancer. He doesn't seem the type to get into stuff, he just needs to have a look-see, then he moved on. He definitely likes other breeds, and likes my kitteh a lot. He was play bowing to her this morning! Any tips would be appreciated, I'd love to be the one to train this out of him. And any potential adopters would be warned that the behavior may resurface when introduced to a new environment. Enjoy the pics, he is drop dead gorgeous and his fur is bunny rabbit soft!! More info about him is on our facebook page, link in my siggie! Edited March 14, 2012 by 4dogscrazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mychip1 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 He is beautiful. Quote Robin, EZ (Tribal Track), JJ (What a Story), Dustin (E's Full House) and our beautiful Jack (Mana Black Jack) and Lily (Chip's Little Miss Lily) both at the BridgeThe WFUBCC honors our beautiful friends at the bridge. Godspeed sweet angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenbo Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 He's GORGEOUS. *swoon* Quote Camp Broodie with tuxedo Summer 12 and tuxedo Dio 6 Missing KC Kitty 2000-2016, Myka and part of my heart 2006-2020, and Saint YellBoy 2014-2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mariah Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Good for you for taking him in! He's a handsome fella. Bet it feels nice to be out of the kennel for a change. Resource guarding is tricky...I really got a lot out of the Jean Donaldson book ("Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding") when we ran into this problem with Chips (your write-up of Aspen actually reminded me quite a bit of my boy). She discusses a number of different guarding scenarios and then breaks the counter-conditioning process down piece by piece. It's a little tedious, but it works. Maybe put the toys up for the time being while you work on the problem? Also, you mentioned about separating him while he's eating...I've read and also experienced firsthand that a dog with resource guarding issues will often guard more than one thing (food, furniture, bed, PEOPLE, etc). Something to keep in mind I guess. How is he with the other dogs when there aren't toys around? Edited March 15, 2012 by mariah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 4dogscrazy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Good for you for taking him in! He's a handsome fella. Bet it feels nice to be out of the kennel for a change. Resource guarding is tricky...I really got a lot out of the Jean Donaldson book ("Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding") when we ran into this problem with Chips (your write-up of Aspen actually reminded me quite a bit of my boy). She discusses a number of different guarding scenarios and then breaks the counter-conditioning process down piece by piece. It's a little tedious, but it works. Maybe put the toys up for the time being while you work on the problem? Also, you mentioned about separating him while he's eating...I've read and also experienced firsthand that a dog with resource guarding issues will often guard more than one thing (food, furniture, bed, PEOPLE, etc). Something to keep in mind I guess. How is he with the other dogs when there aren't toys around? He seems fine, likes to go along with the pack. That's what makes the problem bigger, he probably won't do well without at least one other dog. At the kennel, he was a bit stand-off-ish around the other dogs. We had him out in the big pen on Sunday with about 20-25 other greys, we had a fun run, and he seemed fine. We had one little girl who seemed to start up fights and then become the victim (we took her out immediatly of course) but he never seems to have that problem. He was sort of just "around" the pack all day. I assume he will resouce guard with other things too. He won't be allowed on the bed or furniture here, and I will keep feeding him separate from the group. I think once he starts to trust his life more, he might settle down. But I think he will always have to be watched for signs of guarding. Definitely needs an experienced hand. I will try to work with him as much as I can, but I know my house isn't really ideal. I have two youngsters, one who is snarky anyway, and my older girl seems the best bet for training. I absolutly don't want a bite to happen though, so we will make the best of the situation for now. Right now he's gated in the office with me, with a pile of toys, and unmuzzled. He's asleep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 How does he react if you do "trade-up" with toys? How does he react if you are close to his food bowl - can you pet him while he is eating? If he starts to stiffen/freezes when you get close to his food, then that signals a problem. With the toy, does he just growl or does his posture seem to signal being more "ready" to attack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 4dogscrazy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 How does he react if you do "trade-up" with toys? How does he react if you are close to his food bowl - can you pet him while he is eating? If he starts to stiffen/freezes when you get close to his food, then that signals a problem. With the toy, does he just growl or does his posture seem to signal being more "ready" to attack? I haven't started trade up, he's only been here since Monday night. What he did today was DROP the toy, then proceed to stand over it and yell at everyone who was near him. He did show his teeth. BIG teeth. We all walked away and ignored him. Then when he moved away a little I just walked by and scooped up the toy. It was scary and my instincts told ME to back off, fast. He has never lunged, I asked that specifically when I took him home. Today I stood by the gate, in the doorway, of the room he was eating in. I was on the other side of the gate. The dish was by the gate. I put my hand on the gate and he sort of glanced up at me. No growling though. I am not, currently, crazy enough to pet him while he is eating. He just got here too. I really don't bother my dogs, especially new dogs, when they eat. After they have been here for a long time I set the bowl down and then give them a pat on the head. Just to see where they are at. It will be a LONG time before I pat him while he's eating. I have a very healthy respect for canine teeth, and a very strong survival instinct. I will not put myself in danger to test him BUT I am in observation mode, and trying to see what his buttons are without causing an incident, that will go on his record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DragonflyDM Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) When I brought Boomer home, I had concerns about food aggression (I had concerns…he had no problems). My test was to take a glove and fill it with fluff and put it on the end of a broom. When Boomer ate, I would gently pet him and see what he would do. I have done this with other dogs and it takes a good a few seconds to realize it isn’t a real person. Boomer didn’t care at all. But it is a good safe way to test food aggression. But I am not sure that resource hoarding/guarding and food aggression are the same thing. Mostly because food aggression is fear based on a worry that the animal will loose its meal. Resource hoarding is normal for most dogs in some respects (it is the prize for being faster, stronger, better). While food aggression is a survival fear, aggression from resource hoarding is about politics, power, socialization, etc. That is why it is so much more difficult I think, because food aggression is about classical conditions and resource hoarding is about operant conditioning. Trading up allows a dog to see that there are things of equal or greater value. Good obedience allows the dog to see that praise of the pack leader offers more reward than the item he/she possesses. I am not the best person to know the answer on how to get that training done-- but it is possible. Food aggression is easy but takes time. I don’t know how hard it is to work on hoarding aggression. Edited March 15, 2012 by DragonflyDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 4dogscrazy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Thank you all for your replies. He hasn't had a good day. He started this morning with an arguement over a bed. Then the toy incident, and just now another problem. He was laying in my office, with another dog in a separate bed. He doesn't seem to mind Tempe, but she is very calm and minds her own business. Then poor Jesse, came into the room for a pet and Aspen growled at him. Jesse just looked at me, and then walked away. Aspen was muzzled. He was guarding the bed I assume. I have made the decision to take him back to the kennel. We will continue to work with him every day, and we have a resource guarding guru foster who we might contact, if he can take him. I'm just not going to be able to help him here. This is out of my area of expertise, and I admit it. My house is too busy, we have too many dogs with different personalities, and the house is too darn small for a resouce guarder. Part of the problem with the toy earlier was that the other dogs were just trying to walk by him, no one was going after his toy at all. He dropped it in a main walkway. I am afraid to let him go unmuzzled now with another dog (except Tempe who is mostly a lump). That will not help him at all, obviously. And my daughter (14) is now a little afraid of him too. Fiance is too. I am really sad over this, I was hoping he would settle, and I know he hasn't had enough time. But my dogs just aren't all lumps, only the older ones. The younger ones like to play with toys, my yard looks like I have 10 children living here. Three big problems in one day is too much for me to handle. And I am not always home, I work 50 hours a week (10 from home) and volunteer for 5. I thought his problem was when another dog tried to take his toy, but that is not the case. He stands over his belonging and starts barking and growling. I am hopeful someone else, with a calmer household will be available to foster him. Maybe someone with more experience. He is so beautiful, and he seems like an old soul in a young dogs body. But he means business with his belongings, and I have to admit defeat here, much to my dismay. Hope you don't flame me, I am very concerned for his future and taking him back tomorrow is going to break my heart. Again, thanks for the help. Wish him luck, he's going to need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RooMcClanahan Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Sorry to hear it was such a rough day. No flames here; you did everything right from the sound of it. Good on you for keeping your pack and family's safety at heart, and hopefully your resource-guarding guru will be able to help out this sweet old-soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mariah Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry it didn't work out, though I don't blame you for not being able to keep him there. It probably wasn't easy on him, feeling like he had to guard all his stuff all the time. I was thinking of something yesterday, when you mentioned he had started urinating in his kennel. Have they ruled out that there's anything medical going on? That can aggravate guardy behavior as well. Hope he's able to get himself sorted out, poor guy. Edited March 15, 2012 by mariah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I hope no one flames you about this ... dealing with growly dogs is usually best done by experienced people who can get a handle on it quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DragonflyDM Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I hope no one flames you about this ... dealing with growly dogs is usually best done by experienced people who can get a handle on it quickly. I know a few people that brag about being bitten by a dog, as if that is supposed to be normal. I have owned dogs my entire life and never been biten-- probably because I try not to upset my (or anyone else's) puppies. You have lots of dogs of your own to consider too. It is a shame about Aspen, but I bet he would do well in a one-dog family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 4dogscrazy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Thanks everyone! We have an SOS out to the guru...so hopefully he has the room and time right now. He specializes in finding homes for grey mixes, so we're not sure who he has at his house right now. Aspen was okay medically, and he never did go in my house. So at least we know that much now. We also know he is really good in the house, doesn't mess with household stuffs or get upset by new environments or scary house noises. That part was a success. He was fine at the kennel this morning, so glad I didn't procrastinate or try for a longer period of time. He was becoming attached to us, he whined when my daughter got out of the car this morning and went to school. All my dogs love her a lot. He immediatly went back to normal at the kennel, first thing he did was drag all his bedding outside to lay in the sun I was sad and cried a little for him, but I know when things are too much for me (and my pack) and that was the case here. Thanks again everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Angelique Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 You tried, and that counts bundles. Sometimes we just don't have the time/resources/knowledge/ability to deal with situations. It would be awful if one of your other kids got bitten by Aspen. He knows the kennel, he was introduced to a home environment, he is potty trained And well, it sounds like he will be a single child, or perhaps need an older mellow brother to teach him that hoarding is not necessary. Good luck to Aspen on the road ahead. 4DogsCrazy, good job, your heart is in the right place and Aspen will always be thankful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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