Requesting Tests

[Guest gurehaundo]

I'm not sure if I've posted any of my Ace's symptoms in one thread before, but I'd like some advice... Here goes!

 

Ace will be eight years old on Christmas Day. We adopted him in January of 2007. A few years ago he underwent a dental procedure, but almost didn't recover from the anesthesia. His kidneys started to shut down, and he lost about ten pounds in three days following the procedure. He ended up staying at the hospital for a few days connected to IVs. He made it through everything fairly well, but has had issues ever since. He's skinny. Yeah, Greyhounds are supposed to be thin, but Ace looks like a starving child from Africa. He eats four cups of Solid Gold kibble - two cups, twice a day. He refuses to eat more than that. This is probably the best kibble he has been on - his coat and skin looks awesome. He's just really skinny. You can see all of his ribs, his hip bones...everything! Ace pants all day long, sometimes even when he's just chillin' on a bed. He's always been a bit on the anxious side so I thought it was due to nerves. However, I recently read that panting could be a sign of being in pain. Hmm... Ace also drinks water all day long. We are constantly filling up the dogs' water bowl. As a result, Ace must go out to potty every few hours. The constant peeing started when he had his dental. He never messes in the house because someone is always home to let him go outside. He also pees a lot. There's no dribbling with this boy. When he has to go, he seriously has to go.

 

Within the last several months, Ace has started to favor his back right leg. He only favors it when he's standing. He trots around the back yard just fine and walks without a limp. Sometimes he struggles to get to a standing position as if his back end is a bit weaker. He's not experienced any physical trauma recently. We don't have stairs, but we do have hardwood floors. He has slipped on the floor before - pulling a Bambi on ice kind of move - but that was almost a year ago. He's takes care in how he walks across the floor now. He didn't favor any limbs when he slipped. He appeared to come out of it unscathed.

 

I don't believe that the leaning tower of Ace has anything to do with his kidneys or scrawniness, but I'm no doctor. So, if you were prepared to spend an unlimited amount of money on tests, what would you request? Of course, I plan on speaking with the vet about all of these issues, but I'd like to go in with some ideas.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Did Ace race? Back-right leg is the first to show problems, I think, because it takes the brunt of the force when driving around those left-hand curves on tracks.

 

Silver walks and trots fine, but when she stands she doesn't put her weight evenly on her back legs and sometimes she stands with the back-right off the ground.

 

I had a vet x-ray her (to rule out cancer). She has a bit of arthritis there, but the real issue is her Achilles tendon. On her good left leg, the tendon goes straight down the back of her hock (as it's supposed to). On her right leg, the tendon goes down the outside of the hock. You actually can see a visible difference if you look at the outside of both legs. Like your Ace, she has problems getting up sometimes, but she's fine once she's on her feet and she moves well. When she squats to pee, sometimes she'll hold that back-right foot in the air until she gets her knees bent, then touch it to the ground to keep her balance. Maybe Ace has a similar injury that's becoming more of a problem as he ages. (Silver is 6.) I'd want an x-ray for him to check.

 

The panting and the "skinnies" I can't help much with. Silver came to me in August needing to gain weight, but she's done so. For Ace, you might see if he'll be interested in a bedtime snack. If he'll eat even another half cup at bedtime, you'll be upping his calorie intake by one-eighth, and he'll be going right to sleep and not burning it off. It may be that 4 cups isn't really his limit, but that two cups at a time is. Or maybe a cookie or two at bedtime. (My guys always get a half-cup of kibble at bedtime. To fatten up Silver, I gave her a whole cup. She just didn't want extra at mealtimes.)

[KF_in_Georgia]

Here are photos of Silver's hocks, good on the left, bad on the right:

 

 

The out-of-place tendon shows clearly.

Edited October 5, 2011 by KF_in_Georgia

[turbotaina]

Well, if you wanted to address all of the issues, I'd do a CBC with superchem to check the kidneys and see how the other blood values look. I'd also get a urinalysis to check kidney function and an x-ray of the back leg that he's favoring Might also be worth doing a thyroid panel through MSU because of potential thermoregulating problems and the anxiety. Around here, a CBC with SuperChem runs about $150, a urinalysis is about $40 and an x-ray one view no sedation is about $80. I want to say a full thyroid panel through MSU is about $80, but I could be wrong on that and it might be cheaper (or more). If his kidney numbers come back off, you might want to do a blood pressure test to see if that's affecting him. Greyhounds tend to run high there, and it can affect the kidneys. A full tick panel is also a good idea to rule things out. Through NCSU (gold standard), that'll run about $200.

 

Has he always panted? If this is new, yes, it could be pain, or it could be any number of other things like him just running hot (which my old boy started doing as he aged) If you're really concerned about it, maybe an EKG to check and see how the heart is functioning?

 

To start though, I'd do a CBC/SuperChem and u/a (with specific gravity) and maybe an x-ray of the leg. With the symptoms you describe, and not taking into consideration the lameness, I'd say there's something going on with the kidneys or that he has diabetes insipidus or even diabetes mellitus (though it's not very common in dogs, it can happen and could explain the weight loss, drinking and urination).

[Guest gurehaundo]

Thank you both!

 

Ace did go to school, but he never officially raced. I think they let him run around the track three times before they realized he would make a better pet than a racer. He was retired at two, spent a few months in some foster homes, and then I adopted him when he was three. I just checked his legs and everything appears to be the same on both sides. Hmm...

 

I suppose we could try a bedtime snack. He does get snacks throughout the day, but he puts his nose up to the healthy ones. He much prefers Beggin' Strips and Pupperoni over the baked biscuits. We don't normally buy those types of treats, but have been trying whatever he likes in hopes of boosting his appetite.

 

I would say that Ace has always panted so maybe his panting is really due to his anxiety. Though, it seems to be all the time now. He used to pant and pace - which he still does sometimes- but he would stop panting once he laid down.

 

Thank you so much for the tips! I'm going to take Ace to the clinic in a little bit to see how much he really weighs. I took some pictures earlier, but my internet isn't doing so well. I was able to upload the pictures to Photobucket, but I couldn't resize them for the forum. Anyway, I'm going to talk to the receptionist about making an appointment for him so we can get things going. I'm making a list of every test so I can take it with me. The poor guy just looks sick to me...

[OwnedBySummer]

My first thought was also diabetes.

 

If you want some 'fatten me up' food, here's a recipe for Satin Balls:

 

Ingredients:

5lb. Fatty ground beef (fattiest you can find)

½ lb. Cream cheese

1 Small jar of natural peanut butter (nothing but peanuts in it)

12 Egg yolks (not the whites)

2 cups Oatmeal, soaked for at least 2 hours (better overnight) in 18% cream

1 cup Wheat germ

 

Directions:

Mix everything up in a large bowl, you'll have to use your hands to do this, just dive in. When well mixed, roll into ping pong sized balls and place on cookie sheet. Freeze, put into a bag and serve 4 with each meal.

Edited October 5, 2011 by OwnedBySummer

[greyhead]

In addition to what others have said, I'd test for TBD's through Protatek. We found Shane's almost two years ago, when he was 7. I requested it after unexplained symptoms like apparent but unlocatable pain and panting, etc., and also after I found out that he was born and raised in Oklahoma, a hotbed of TBD's. He was positive for Babesia canis, and having him treated changed his life. I don't know if there's a connection, but he has also had iffy kidney values for years, and previously lots of drinking and peeing. ( He ended up with a UTI that went undiagnosed a long time because his vet said it was incontinence. The moral of that story was: don't be satisfied with a good-looking urinalysis, request a urine culture! )

 

In any case, a TBD doesn't necessarily manifest with florid symptoms. It can just lead to a variety of things, like easy overheating, panting and diffuse pain, that really lower the quality of life. And if later on something does arise that requires a drug like prednisone, taking the prednisone will put them in graver danger as it will take the brakes off suppress the immune system that has been keeping the TBD in check.

 

(Edited because what I meant was the pred takes the brakes off the TBD! )

Edited October 8, 2011 by greyhead

[Remolacha]

I'd do x-rays, both on the leg and also his hip/lower spine area.

 

Fletcher pants, a lot, and his panting seems to be a combination of pain from his arthritis (we upped his pain meds), an increasing sensetivity to heat as he gets older, and "chronic allergic bronchitis" That was a new one one me, and he has been taking an antihistimine for that.

 

A tick panel is always a good idea, and given his history, I'd have his kidney function tested (not sure exactly what tests are involved).

 

good luck!

 

 

[Guest gurehaundo]

We are at the clinic right now. I'm on my phone so I apologize for typos. Ace lost six pounds. One of the vets just happened to have an opening so here we are. I brought the list. The vet doesn't want to test for tick diseases yet. His lymphnodes are fine. He cried when she examined his belly. She wants to concentrate on his kidneys right now. They are taking abdominal x-rays and doing bloodwork. He wasn't able to urinate for them, but he is kind of nervous. The vet said that once his bloodwork comes back, we will know more and possi

 

Sorry! The screen went all weird. I just talked to the vet about his x-ray. There's nothing to be too concerned about, but there's some shadowing around the liver and spleen. She's going to have the other vets look at it to see if they have other opinions. She was able to extend his right leg which means that his hips are ok. She talked about osteo and that she doesn't believe he has it. I guess we'll just have to wait for the blood test results and go from there.

[Guest gurehaundo]

Since my internet is working properly again, I thought I'd post the pictures that I took yesterday.

 

 

 

 

At the clinic doing the lean:

 

 

I should mention that Ace is a tall guy and only weighs 65 lbs now. Greyhound Data has his weight listed at 71 lbs. At one point, for a few years, he was at a nice lookin' 75 lbs.

 

Thanks, Lisa, for the recipe! Thank you all again, you've been most helpful!

[Remolacha]

did they, or will they, do an ultrasound? I know sometimes, for the organs, that shows stuff better than x-rays. Just throwing something else out there. I hope you get some answers for Ace soon

[Guest gurehaundo]

You know, the vet didn't mention an ultrasound. I didn't think to ask about it, either. She said she wanted to get the results of his bloodwork and U/A before doing more than the x-ray. She also didn't think he needed an EKG at this point. I'm still waiting to hear what the test results are, if they are even in yet.

 

Thanks for the suggestion and I will definitely bring it up if the vet can't find anything wrong.

 

My poor boy has been acting odd since we got back from the clinic yesterday. My husband said that he was being extremely clingy with him. I was sleeping so was unaware of his behavior. When I got up at 9:30 last night to go to work, Ace followed me around, but that's normal for him at that time. However, when I got home this morning around 9:00, he's been my shadow and just wanting to be loved on. He normally will rest his chin on my arm to let me know that he wants to go outside, but he has not stopped putting his face all up in mine. As soon as I start petting him, his eyes kind of roll back like he's about to fall asleep. He seems tired, but he's even more restless than normal. Maybe we are giving off vibes and making him nervous.

[Guest Scouts_mom]

Do you know where he was bred and trained? If he is from an Oregon farm and raced only at the old Multnomah track, I won't worry about tickborn diseases as they are not a big problem here. If, however, he is from one of the southern states, they should be kept on the list of possibilities.

[OwnedBySummer]

Is it just me or is his underneath showing a strange bulge? In front of his "business"? I can see it in both the first picture and the last picture. ????

[Guest gurehaundo]

He was born in Colorado - somewhere east of Denver, I think. Ace was sent to racing school in Arizona. I will say that we drove him from Colorado to New York City one year, but we also took four other dogs. And, we drove from Colorado to Washington State when we moved. The vet asked about Ace's travels and still didn't seem concerned about the tick thing. Do you think I should insist of having the tick disease test done?

 

Lisa, you're funny! It's a little tuft of hair on his belly button. It does seem like that bit of skin is stretched pretty thin. Maybe it's just the way Ace is with his weird posture. He kind of walks like he has a stick up his you-know-what.

 

The vet called yesterday and said that his issues are most likely the result of a kidney problem. She wants to run more tests to compare numbers. She also suggested that we could take Ace to get an ultrasound, but we'd have to drive to WSU (Washington State University). I haven't looked up how far away the college is, but my co-workers said it's around 4.5 hours. Yikes! I'm going to wait to get the new test results back to see which direction we need to go in. Oy.

[Remolacha]

don't want to add to your worries, but if he was in AZ, he probably should be tested for Valley Fever (if he hasn't been already)

[greyhead]

I don't want to add to your worries either, but kidney problems can be the result of TBD's. Your vet may not have diagnosed and treated them in WA (where we live too). If s/he were very familiar with them, s/he would have reacted to the word "Arizona." (We had trouble getting two vets to recognize hookworm in our first GH here, because hookworm didn't used to be in this state and they weren't expecting it. And the first vet even considered herself a greyhound vet! At that point it was more like an aspiration.)

 

I wonder if you could post your dog's BUN and creatinine values from the bloodwork when it comes back, just so we can see how elevated they are. (Get a hard copy of the results if you can. It can be very educational.)

 

We're managing our ex-TBD-dog's kidney issues with kidney food (Royal Canin Medium Protein) and SAM-e CQ-10 from Costco. It's working great too!

 

Holding good thoughts for you and for tall, dark and handsome Ace! I know how stressful this can be.

 

ETA: Not SAM-e, CQ-10! (We give SAM-e to our other dog for liver maintenance, and for some reason I get them confused sometimes.)

Edited October 9, 2011 by greyhead

[Burpdog]

A TBD panel at Protatek costs around $86 with a full blood panel. It would be a good idea to do one.

[Guest LindsaySF]

He's a little thin, but not bad. Honestly Rogan shows as many ribs as he does, but he's in racing shape. I think your boy looks thinner because he walks with a hunched up posture and a roached back. That makes me think there is pain in the abdomen somewhere.

 

I'd do bloodwork to check the kidneys, and also an abdominal ultrasound to see how the organs look (and check for any masses ).

 

I see the bulge in front of his penis too. That's a hair tuft you said?

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest gurehaundo]

I dropped Ace's poo off at the clinic this morning to check for parasites just in case. The vet called last night and said that Ace's levels weren't terrible. She said a bunch of things, and of course, I can't remember exactly what levels she was talking about. So, she's not sure what's going on at this point. The vet would like to get together on Monday to discuss our next option. I'm going to tell her to run the Protatek test to rule out the tick diseases. I read that lameness can also be a symptom as well as the kidney issues. Mary, I think you're right in that the vet is probably not experienced with TBDs.

 

What's worrisome is that Ace is eating just fine, no loss of appetite, but is continuing to lose weight.

 

While dropping off the poo, I requested copies of the test results.

 

BUN = 11 (It says the range is 6-29.)

 

Creatinine = 1.0 (The range for Greyhounds is 1.2-1.9.)

 

Glucose = 102 (Range is 65-130.)

 

The high and low levels are as follows:

 

Total Protein = 8.6 (Normal range is 5.4-7.6.)

 

Globulin = 5.7 (Range is 2.4-4.4.)

 

Alb/Glob Ratio = 0.5 (Range is 0.6-1.2.)

 

ALP = 166 (Range is 10-84.)

 

AST = 94 (Range is 16-60.)

 

CK =1495 (Range is 50-300.)

 

T4, RIA = 0.9 (Range is 1.0-4.0.)

 

This is from the U/A:

 

Prot/Creat Ratio, Urine = 0.9 (Range is 0-1)

 

I haven't had a chance to research anything, yet. I just thought I'd answer some questions before I have to go to bed.

 

Lindsay, when the vet pressed on Ace's belly, he cried. He's definitely uncomfortable. Yeah, he's kind of hairy down there.. The tuft was formed when his forward hairs met his backward hairs. Jac, who is Ace's cousin, is virtually hairless on his belly. Jac and Ace are roughly the same size and Jac weighs 75 lbs. He looks great! You can still see his ribs and a little bit of his hip bones, but he looks healthy. When Ace weighed 75 lbs, you could still see his spine - it's just so curvy! - as well as ribs and hip bones, but he didn't look sick. My gut is telling me that something is wrong with Ace. He's not muscle-y at all, just boney. You can see the indentations in his shoulders.

[Batmom]

I'd get an abdominal ultrasound before anything, and a microalbumin urine test.

 

If there's reason to suspect or test for tick disease, I'd recommend one of the comprehensive PCR panels from Idexx or Antech. These include many more diseases and, if you're going to do just one test, will give a better indication of disease status than a titer panel.

[JJNg]

Are you sure that's just hair making it look like a bulge on his belly? I took the liberty of copying your photos and circling the bulge that looks abnormal to me too. On the side view of a normal male greyhound, it should be a smooth line up from the underside of the chest to the penis.

 

I would also be concerned if he really has abdominal pain that is making him stand hunched and cry out when his belly was palpated. I definitely agree that an abdominal ultrasound and TBD testing are good ideas.

 

 

 

And here's a photo of my boy for comparison.

 

[Guest gurehaundo]

Ace is going to be mortified when he finds out I posted pictures of his junk on the internet. I'm pretty sure my neighbors think I've lost my mind! I thought it would be best to show you guys a close up of Ace's lump. I took these pictures within the last hour (outside in the back yard). If you guys still think that I should bring this to the vet's attention, definitely let me know and I will talk to her about it tomorrow.

 

I hope these help! Oh, he just pottied which is why his penis is wet.

 

 

 

Here's an under shot (boy parts on the left, chest on the right):

 

 

And here's Jac's stuff:

 

 

I have to say that I'm now noticing how hairy Ace has gotten. He wasn't always so fuzzy.

Edited October 9, 2011 by gurehaundo

[krissy]

I dropped Ace's poo off at the clinic this morning to check for parasites just in case. The vet called last night and said that Ace's levels weren't terrible. She said a bunch of things, and of course, I can't remember exactly what levels she was talking about. So, she's not sure what's going on at this point. The vet would like to get together on Monday to discuss our next option. I'm going to tell her to run the Protatek test to rule out the tick diseases. I read that lameness can also be a symptom as well as the kidney issues. Mary, I think you're right in that the vet is probably not experienced with TBDs.

 

What's worrisome is that Ace is eating just fine, no loss of appetite, but is continuing to lose weight.

 

While dropping off the poo, I requested copies of the test results.

 

BUN = 11 (It says the range is 6-29.)

 

Creatinine = 1.0 (The range for Greyhounds is 1.2-1.9.)

 

Glucose = 102 (Range is 65-130.)

 

The high and low levels are as follows:

 

Total Protein = 8.6 (Normal range is 5.4-7.6.)

 

Globulin = 5.7 (Range is 2.4-4.4.)

 

Alb/Glob Ratio = 0.5 (Range is 0.6-1.2.)

 

ALP = 166 (Range is 10-84.)

 

AST = 94 (Range is 16-60.)

 

CK =1495 (Range is 50-300.)

 

T4, RIA = 0.9 (Range is 1.0-4.0.)

 

This is from the U/A:

 

Prot/Creat Ratio, Urine = 0.9 (Range is 0-1)

 

I haven't had a chance to research anything, yet. I just thought I'd answer some questions before I have to go to bed.

 

Lindsay, when the vet pressed on Ace's belly, he cried. He's definitely uncomfortable. Yeah, he's kind of hairy down there.. The tuft was formed when his forward hairs met his backward hairs. Jac, who is Ace's cousin, is virtually hairless on his belly. Jac and Ace are roughly the same size and Jac weighs 75 lbs. He looks great! You can still see his ribs and a little bit of his hip bones, but he looks healthy. When Ace weighed 75 lbs, you could still see his spine - it's just so curvy! - as well as ribs and hip bones, but he didn't look sick. My gut is telling me that something is wrong with Ace. He's not muscle-y at all, just boney. You can see the indentations in his shoulders.

 

Out of curiosity... the vet is thinking kidneys but his kidney values are all normal (actually, almost low for a greyhound)?

 

Globulin and TP are normally slightly high for a greyhound compared to non-greys.

 

CK is a muscle enzyme predominantly and that seems to skyrocket in sick greys. If it gets high enough his urine will probably go orange-red too.

 

His liver enzymes are up a bit but not really enough to be overly concerned. With liver disease we typically expect a 2-3 fold increase.

 

What was the specific gravity of his urine? And did they do a dipstick or sediment?

[JJNg]

Ace is going to be mortified when he finds out I posted pictures of his junk on the internet. I'm pretty sure my neighbors think I've lost my mind!

I can just imagine your neighbors seeing you take those photos.

 

The bulge doesn't look as pronounced in these close up shots as it did in the earlier ones. Maybe just how he was standing? I would be more interested in how his belly feels when your run your hand over the area. Can you feel a bulge, or is it really just all hair? But if it's something coming from inside the abdomen, it may move some and not always be obvious from the outside. Although I would think that if your vet felt anything unusual when she palpated his belly, she would have said something.

 

Maybe you could take that side-view photo (the one where he's drinking) to your vet next visit and ask her to palpate again and check that area out real well? When palpating a grey's belly, it's easy to feel further back where the tuck is, but can be difficult towards the front because of the deep ribcage.

 

Couldn't remember if he'd had abdominal x-rays taken, so I read back through the thread and saw where your vet mentioned 'shadowing around the liver and spleen' on the x-rays. Definitely thinking that an abdominal ultrasound would be a good idea.