Need Some Support And Advice

[Guest verthib]

Hi, I'm pretty new here to greytalk. I am feeling that I don't have a support system available to ask questions, so I'm turning to you all. We had one greyhoud, Gracie, for about a month before getting our newest greyhound, Angus. Gracie is very laid back and mild mannered, not at all dominant. Angus is confident, he's sure of himself and is very curious and friendly. We got him because she was experiencing some separation anxiety when we were gone. We knew almost instantly that he would probably be the dominant dog, even though Gracie was here first, which is ok, because they decide who is dominant, not us. I would have preferred Gracie be the alpha, but that wasn't to be. Anyway, some behaviors have developed. When we first brought him home he tried to hump her twice and she growled and barked to tell him knock it off. That seemed to work, and all was fine for about two weeks. They would drink out of the same water bowl, they could get treats near each other, they could share toys, swap beds, all was well. It's a little over 3 weeks later and his behavior has turned a little ugly. He doesn't want to share toys, he'll growl if she's even 5 feet from him. If it's a favorite toy, he'll even growl at us if we're near-by, even if we aren't trying to take the toy away. If he has his benzo ball, it will be the same reaction. Everyone better stay far far away or he'll growl and bark. He does NOT let her play with ANY toys now either. He'll be content with a squeeky and if she tries to play with another one, he'll run and take hers away, and so we'll give her another one or she'll get another one, and he runs to get that one. Basically it doesn't matter what she tries to play with, he just takes it - around in a circle we go... she takes one, he takes it, she gets another one, he takes that one too, and so on. Outside in our yard we decided to get her to chase me, as we did before we got Angus.... no toys for Angus to get jealous over. He allowed her to do that for the first week or two...Now he won't even let her play with us. He takes his snout/muzzle and puts it over her neck and pushes her down, so she can't jump or run, etc. He is basically stifling her and it's heart-breaking. We had a trainer and at first his behavior was mild and she said to let it continue and don't correct him and that it will work itself out. But I feel that was to his detriment. Now he's gone overboard, probably because we never corrected him. We don't know anyone else with greyhounds, and the rescue has limited advice/resources. It would be nice to talk with other people who added a second grey, and who have a dominant dog....how they handle it, what training techniques they use, etc. We're to the point of considering giving him back, which breaks our heart. We do love him, but Gracie is not "allowed" to have any fun or enjoyment, and that's not fair to her. We have resorted to putting him in his crate to give her some play time, but that doesn't really address the problem, nor does it address the resource guarding.

Thanks, Veronica

[TheFullHouse]

He's being a bully. He's gotten comfortable and is trying obviously to boss everyone around. I would put away the toys for now. I would also correct him every time you see him bully anyone, you or her. She obviously isn't going to stand up for herself so you're going to have to do it for her. Mine are met with a "no" when I see them try and bully one of the other dogs. I have one who thinks that the bed in the corner is his and when another dog is lying on it he will stand there staring at them trying to make them move, I make him move. Once you get his dominant behavior under control you can bring the toys back out but I would watch him because he obviously wants to guard most everything he see's as his.

[Guest verthib]

He's being a bully. He's gotten comfortable and is trying obviously to boss everyone around. I would put away the toys for now. I would also correct him every time you see him bully anyone, you or her. She obviously isn't going to stand up for herself so you're going to have to do it for her. Mine are met with a "no" when I see them try and bully one of the other dogs. I have one who thinks that the bed in the corner is his and when another dog is lying on it he will stand there staring at them trying to make them move, I make him move. Once you get his dominant behavior under control you can bring the toys back out but I would watch him because he obviously wants to guard most everything he see's as his.

 

We agree we have to correct him, but how? Use a squirt bottle when he growls? Someone once suggested the "trade" program. If they have something you want, you give them something else. But that doesn't fix it for Gracie. Ugh, we are so frustrated! He has his adorable moments, he's potty trained, he's friendly, etc. He's overall a good dog, but he just wants to be the boss, and I'm not having it.

[TheFullHouse]

If he understands the word "NO" I would correct him that way. If you see him take something from Gracie, take it back and tell him "NO". If he pushes his way in when she's getting attention, you can get up and walk away from him. He needs to learn that you will give him attention when you feel like it. You haven't said whether he is allowed on the furniture or not. Research NILIF (nothing in life is free) here on GT. It's good to use on the bossy dogs who come in and try and take over. One of mine was like that and it took a lot of work but now he is the sweetest boy. His behaviors centered around having to be first all the time so I would make him wait until last. He loved coming down the stairs first and then going at all the other dogs coming down after him so I would hold his collar and make him wait until all the other dogs were downstairs first. He wanted to be first out the door to go outside and I would make him wait until last. He is still the dominant dog in my house but his dominance is under control and he knows that I lead the pack, not him.

[Guest verthib]

If he understands the word "NO" I would correct him that way. If you see him take something from Gracie, take it back and tell him "NO". If he pushes his way in when she's getting attention, you can get up and walk away from him. He needs to learn that you will give him attention when you feel like it. You haven't said whether he is allowed on the furniture or not. Research NILIF (nothing in life is free) here on GT. It's good to use on the bossy dogs who come in and try and take over. One of mine was like that and it took a lot of work but now he is the sweetest boy. His behaviors centered around having to be first all the time so I would make him wait until last. He loved coming down the stairs first and then going at all the other dogs coming down after him so I would hold his collar and make him wait until all the other dogs were downstairs first. He wanted to be first out the door to go outside and I would make him wait until last. He is still the dominant dog in my house but his dominance is under control and he knows that I lead the pack, not him.

 

No, he isn't allowed on the furniture, and there are certain rooms that he is not allowed to go in (i.e the den which we have made into the "cat room" as their safe place). Also, we feed them both in their crates, but she gets fed first, and we give her treats first. We also try to make her go through the door first and down the stairs first, and he's pretty good about all of that. His bossy behavior is generally around play/toys, and high value things like his benzo ball. He knows "no" but not as good as she does. He knows it better if we clap loudly once and say NO! with the clap. But we've tried that and sometimes it scares Gracie so she'll drop her toy too lol. I really don't want to give him up because he HAS improved her separation anxiety, it's nearly gone. They also ride well in the car together, and they drink out of the same bowl. And when I am standing there with treats, he doesn't growl at her. I really am turned off by his bully-ness though. He's more attached to my husband (and Gracie is more attached to me), and my husband doesn't do much about it, but I feel like if we don't start *consistently* correcting him, he will truly get out of control. The part that REALLY turns me off is when he growls at me if I want to take his benzo ball away because we are going outside or to bed or something. I say "leave it" and clap, but honestly I am very hesitant and I am sure he senses that. I just don't want to get bit. Giving him a treat as a trade, almost seems like it's rewarding his bully behavior by saying, you are the bully and we're scared of you so take this instead of that. Whereas, if I'm the alpha in the house, I should be able to say "leave it" and just take it. I really appreciate you reading everything I am venting about! I feel like I have no where else to turn! THANK YOU.

[TheFullHouse]

It's not really a reward, it's giving him something of higher value than his ball so he will learn to willingly give up the ball. Eventually you will be able to get the ball without giving a treat to distract him. It sounds like you have a good handle on it. It's just going to take time and patience. It took me almost 2 years with my boy but it's been so worth it. I just made sure my other dogs were safe and that no one got hurt. I would, for now, until you get his resource guarding under control, put away the toys and bring them out only for play sessions that you can control.

[Guest iconsmum]

Hi - I'm a trainer, for what it's worth...but this is what I'm hearing you say:

you're three or four weeks in and he's getting very comfortable (which is a bit earlier than a lot of dogs);

he's resource guarding away from you as well as from the dog whose playmate and comfort he's supposed to be; (boys are often, if not usually, less inclined to physically coerce household females)

he's decided it's ok to growl at you; so

you're worried about your being able to correct him; and

he's got you backing away from him at least mentally, because you suspect he might use his teeth; (and you might be right.

Good.

The priority was to have a nice SAFE pal for your girl and this dog doesn't fill the bill. Which is not to say anything bad about you, your girl, the new dog, or your husband...(except that it sounds like he's not going to help you change the new guy). Swap dogs. Before it becomes a whole big guilt issue. The boy gets a more appropriate level of owner, your girl doesn't get bitten or over-ridden for the rest of her days, and you don't deal with a dog you don't trust. Your husband'll get over it and you get to have your household in order. I personally don't agree with people trying to manage types of dogs they have no experience with and didn't bargain for in the first place, when there is a system in place to provide another, softer dog with a good sofa and a more experienced owner around the corner for the tougher-minded dog. Call your group and be clear and don't get guilted into prolonging the decision.

Edited October 3, 2011 by iconsmum

[Guest verthib]

Hi - I'm a trainer, for what it's worth...but this is what I'm hearing you say:

you're three or four weeks in and he's getting very comfortable (which is a bit earlier than a lot of dogs);

he's resource guarding away from you as well as from the dog whose playmate and comfort he's supposed to be; (boys are often, if not usually, less inclined to physically coerce household females)

he's decided it's ok to growl at you; so

you're worried about your being able to correct him; and

he's got you backing away from him at least mentally, because you suspect he might use his teeth; (and you might be right.

Good.

The priority was to have a nice SAFE pal for your girl and this dog doesn't fill the bill. Which is not to say anything bad about you, your girl, the new dog, or your husband...(except that it sounds like he's not going to help you change the new guy). Swap dogs. Before it becomes a whole big guilt issue. The boy gets a more appropriate level of owner, your girl doesn't get bitten or over-ridden for the rest of her days, and you don't deal with a dog you don't trust. Your husband'll get over it and you get to have your household in order. I personally don't agree with people trying to manage types of dogs they have no experience with and didn't bargain for in the first place, when there is a system in place to provide another, softer dog with a good sofa and a more experienced owner around the corner for the tougher-minded dog.

 

Hi, Thank you for your response. For what it's worth, we DID try to swap dogs early on, about 4-5 days after we got him when we saw how strong of a personaility he had and saw how he was with our cats (lots of growling, lunging, barking, etc). They made us feel inferior and acted a little upset at us, even though they assured us before getting him that it would be no problem to swap out. Then they kept emailing me during the two week "trial" period on whether we were keeping him or not, and also told us there were no other dogs available, they all had been "spoken for" (which is strange because there are quite a few in foster that we know of)...so basically it was "keep Angus or you're not getting another dog". In general, we love our group and do what we can to support them, but we feel they aren't very supportive in return. We feel a bit judged and inferior if we don't "succeed" at this, and we somehow don't fit into their clique. It's disappointing..and now we feel a bit stuck. <sigh>

P.S. You're right, we wanted a safe dog who would be a companion for Gracie. We knew one of the dogs would be alpha, but I don't think we were prepared to deal with a bully.

Edited October 3, 2011 by verthib

[TheFullHouse]

If you want to return him, I'd just contact the group and tell them you're bringing them back. If you don't feel comfortable working with them again or they say that they can't get you another dog, there are so many groups out there that would be willing to work with you I'm sure. Don't let any one make you feel inferior for not being able to deal with a dog with a strong personality like his. Not everyone is meant to deal with dogs like him.

[Guest verthib]

If you want to return him, I'd just contact the group and tell them you're bringing them back. If you don't feel comfortable working with them again or they say that they can't get you another dog, there are so many groups out there that would be willing to work with you I'm sure. Don't let any one make you feel inferior for not being able to deal with a dog with a strong personality like his. Not everyone is meant to deal with dogs like him.

 

But it's still heartbreaking as we've gotten so attached to him. I am wondering what another home would do with his bully behavior, that we couldn't do. We are willing to try.

Thanks again Jilly.

[Guest 4greys4me]

You are letting him be the "pack leader". You need to take charge and discipline him for his bad behavior. I can't believe that a trainor told you to ignore that bad behavior. I just adopted a new hound into an existing pack of three and she was growling for space and food at first. However, I do not allow growling in my house. After just one week, she fit in perfectly. Now she evens allows the other dogs to share her dinner bowl.

[Guest verthib]

You are letting him be the "pack leader". You need to take charge and discipline him for his bad behavior. I can't believe that a trainor told you to ignore that bad behavior. I just adopted a new hound into an existing pack of three and she was growling for space and food at first. However, I do not allow growling in my house. After just one week, she fit in perfectly. Now she evens allows the other dogs to share her dinner bowl.

 

Ok, so can I mail you a check? lol Tell me HOW to correct. I will tell you what we tried. We tried squirting him with a water bottle when he would bark in the middle of the night because he was just out of a racing kennel when we got him and he had no clue of what "quiet" meant and WHEN to be quiet... and it worked... now he sleeps from 10 pm to 6 am (except when it thunders)...so using that logic we thought we would use the squirt bottle again for guarding barking and bad growling. We don't beleive in hitting or yelling. Well we did that a couple of times and the trainer said to stop... We also tried putting him in his crate for some 5 minute time outs just to give her a chance to play (not as a punishment). We've tried clapping and saying no when he growls, etc. We told our trainer all of this and she said to stop all of it because we could be making his behavior worse by not letting him be alpha... so we did stop, and now it's really worse! I know there is no quick fix, and no magic bullet, but I would at least like to know if we are on the right track. The only thing we haven't figured out is how to let her play with a toy and not let him keep stealing it when he has other toys he's playing with. If we say No!, Gracie thinks we mean it for her and she'll go lay down on her bed, lol. She's an angel.

Edited October 3, 2011 by verthib

[Guest verthib]

You are letting him be the "pack leader". You need to take charge and discipline him for his bad behavior. I can't believe that a trainor told you to ignore that bad behavior. I just adopted a new hound into an existing pack of three and she was growling for space and food at first. However, I do not allow growling in my house. After just one week, she fit in perfectly. Now she evens allows the other dogs to share her dinner bowl.

 

4greys4me... I see you sent me a personal message, but it's not letting me see any personal messages and the HELP board doesn't work when I click on that topic...sorry!

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Ok, you have had this new hound for only a few months. When you have high value treats or toys, growling can occur. I am not of the camp that you should give your hound back. While I am not in your household, I think you may be making a much bigger deal of what is going on. Others have said that you need to be the "pack leader", I agree that you need to take charge more often. In the yard when your girl is playing, if he starts to bully, then you need to stop it. Remember though, there is a difference between bullying and playing. My boy Bart will put his mouth on the back neck of my female and push her down, even sometimes body-checking her. It is play, no bullying, nothing else, just rough play. That is the way he plays. When she doesn't feel like playing, she will snap at him and let him know. If I feel that she is getting upset and he wont leave her alone, I simply call his name and tell him to come. When my boy used to growl at me when I would try to take a bone from him, we started the "trade up". When he would growl at one of us if we bumped him when he was on the sofa, he was immediately removed from the sofa. The theme is that I as the owner would not allow certain behavior. It seems to me from your postings that your boy is getting comfortable in the household and he is not being shown effective leadership as well as you have not earned his trust yet. Obedience class is HUGE in gaining trust, as well as NILF training. I believe if you send this hound back and get another hound, you may find the same issues again as your female may be one of those truly submissive girls that everyone picks on from time to time. My Olive is one of those girls. I understand where you are coming from, but I think that you and hubby need to just take some time to train appropriate behavior (such as sit, stay, come, leave it, wait, etc.), by doing this you will enhance your bond with him and subsequently earn trust from him. Once you have his trust, and he has some manners, you will be able to call him off of her if he gets out of hand.

 

Chad

[MaryJane]

If you haven't used on a muzzle on him, it is time to start because when you are not around he might attack Gracie.

 

You can correct a bully but, when you start to try and be his boss (in effect take over what he sees as his rightful place), the bully might turn on what he is boss of and that would be Gracie. Since you got this dog to help Gracie, this might not be the right dog but, .....

 

if you really want to try and keep him then it will take one-on-one time. I would suggest doing many walks and if your husband is not interested in disciplining the dog then you will need to take over this position as well. When you walk the dog it has to be a training type of walk - you need to keep on disciplining (saying "heel", "good boy", "slow", "faster", "closer" so you are always talking at the dog and getting him to do what you want and you want him right by your leg - no sniffing the roses here and no loose leads. You are going to need to do very light jerks on the lead to make sure he stays aware of you and to keep his attention focused but most greyhounds do not need an excessive jerk on the lead. Also, do Figure 8's on a dead end street as with this exercise you have to keep on turning so the dog has to stay very aware of you and eventually you will be able to move in a figure 8 and the dog will be anticipating your next move. You won't be able to do this for long .. maybe 20 minutes or so before the dog is tired but, try and do it a few times a day. At the end of each session, give him a treat. What both these exercises help to do is move you into a leadership position with him.

 

There's still more to do like having him not growl at you but, see if you can accomplish this exercise first because if you cannot get this done then you probably won't be able to take a treat/chew (step 2, the above was step 1) away from him and that means that you should probably return him.

[Guest verthib]

He wears a muzzle most of the time when he's not in his crate including outside when they're 'playing' and in the car. Im really being careful. Plus we have cats and I'm not ready to have him loose in the house without a muzzle. I probably gave the wrong description of my husband. IT's not that he won't discipline, I'm just more structured and consistent with it. We are definitely being confident around him so he can start respecting us as alpha. We started the trade up training today and it's gone surprisingly well. What didn't go well was getting him to stop bullying her outside. He doesn't care that we are saying no or clapping our hands. Then if we're so firm that he stops, it scares her and she freezes too. It's just a tricky balance. It's frustrating to not have a local network of greyhound owners with our rescue. They just dont offer that kind of support. We are going to continue training him with Wait and Leave It as well. He does walk good and comes when called and stops when I stop etc (unless he sees a squirrel). I was just feeling down and defeated and I really wanted some advice. Thanks to those who wrote and didn't mock me. I appreciate your feedback.

[Guest maidmarcia]

Hey, I don't have any helpful ideas to contribute but just wanted to say that it sounds like you're really trying to make it work and you sound like a committed and great dog owner! Keep persevearing and maybe try looking for another adoption group in your area...hopefully you'll be able to find one Hang in there!

[Guest verthib]

Thanks MaidMarcia!

[TheFullHouse]

Glad the trading up is working. If he's wearing a muzzle outside and can't bite you and you're sure he's just playing, you can let him continue until your girl has had her fill and snarls and snaps back at him. Dogs seem to have a way of letting other dog know when they have had enough. She can get through to him easier than you can. If she refuses to put him in his place and you see she is stressing out, you can grab him by the collar and stop him. Please know this is seen by him as a form of aggression so make sure he is muzzled, once you have him, tell him NO in a very firm voice.

[cleptogrey]

If you want to return him, I'd just contact the group and tell them you're bringing them back. If you don't feel comfortable working with them again or they say that they can't get you another dog, there are so many groups out there that would be willing to work with you I'm sure. Don't let any one make you feel inferior for not being able to deal with a dog with a strong personality like his. Not everyone is meant to deal with dogs like him.

 

it sounds like angus might do really well as an only dog w/ full attention and NO COMPETITION. i agree w/ jillysfullhouse 100%. you are not servicing your original grey as intended, she is really getting the short end of the rope w/ the current deal. a trial period is a trial period, that's it. things didn't work out, that's part of life, don't feel guilty.i went thru a similar situation years and years ago w/ a rescue dog that was "small dog safe". after 4 days she went after my scottie, needless to say the dog was NOT small dog safe and returned. i felt guilty, but my first allegence was to the primary dog in the house.

Edited October 4, 2011 by cleptogrey

[MaryJane]

He wears a muzzle most of the time when he's not in his crate including outside when they're 'playing' and in the car. Im really being careful. Plus we have cats and I'm not ready to have him loose in the house without a muzzle. I probably gave the wrong description of my husband. IT's not that he won't discipline, I'm just more structured and consistent with it. We are definitely being confident around him so he can start respecting us as alpha. We started the trade up training today and it's gone surprisingly well. What didn't go well was getting him to stop bullying her outside. He doesn't care that we are saying no or clapping our hands. Then if we're so firm that he stops, it scares her and she freezes too. It's just a tricky balance. It's frustrating to not have a local network of greyhound owners with our rescue. They just dont offer that kind of support. We are going to continue training him with Wait and Leave It as well. He does walk good and comes when called and stops when I stop etc (unless he sees a squirrel). I was just feeling down and defeated and I really wanted some advice. Thanks to those who wrote and didn't mock me. I appreciate your feedback.

 

Keep him on a leash when you take him outside so you can correct his behavior when he tries to bully your girl.

[Guest PhillyPups]

Another thought would be to take him to school. He will learn commands, and it will give him one on one time with you. He will learn that you are in control, there is a GoD and it is not spelled backwards. He is settling in. If his bullying is allowed to continue, it will escalate.

 

It is not anything negative to be not dog savvy enough to handle a very strong willed dog. There are homes that can, but not all can. It could very well be that he is not the right fit. I think most cat owners here (and I am not in that category) would see the reactions to your cats as a deal breaker. What if he got to them when you were out. I have all high prey hounds here as I am a small animaless home, so they fit with me.

 

Did you talk to your group about his reaction with your cats? That makes it sound to me like he is not the right dog for your house. I can give a firm "YO" and all my dogs hit the closest bed and give me the cutest "it wasn't me" look. They know I am the boss.

 

Oh and many of us have had our share of "returns" and find different home, different dog. I had one whom I loved dearly whose former owner had 3 plastic surgeries from him. He never challenged me in the entire time he was with me. I didn't do anything that I would consider "special" but give him time to trust and not let him bully anyone.

 

Good luck in whatever you decide, you, your cats and Gracie must all feel safe in your own home.

[JenniferS]

If you do decide to return him, just know that there are people out there who have experience with aggressive dogs who are willing to adopt another. He may also need to be an only dog in a household. I'm not saying this is what you should do, but just don't let it stand in your way of making a decision.

Good luck, I know how challenging it can be.

[JAJ2010]

I only browsed through but I saw you asking how to correct his unwanted behavior. It will depend on his degree of sensitivities to correction. My first grey a squirt bottle and a growly No would horrify her! My second one can get the VOG (deepest scariest most demon like yell ever) without an eye flutter! With her any guarding/bullying is met with VOG and eviction from the room for 10 minutes. I don't drag them out I make them walk out with a body block. Point in the direction you want them to go and just walk into them. They WILL move or get walked on. Sounds like this boy needs a major alpha in the house, and hopefully your up to the challenge. There is also no shame in returning him and trying with another group He may need to be in a more grey savvy home. Not every home is right for every dog. I'm sorry that the group your working with isn't more open to your needs. Everyone had given great advice here and this is a great support group!

[Guest cwholsin]

Since it has been getting worse, I'd just keep him on a leash when you're with him. The leash gives you extra control, and can help you bond with him as it keeps him close to you all the time.

In addition to correcting his bullying behavior, you'll also want to reward his other behaviors that aren't. Until you've got him pretty well under hand, I'd suggest keeping him on a leash for greater control and your own peace of mind.

 

It might be a good idea to train him to accept your girl having things that he may want! Since you've posted talking about how they'll share water bowls, etc. it doesn't sound like your boy Angus is really aggressive.. just a bully. With him on a leash, give your girl a toy and work with keeping Angus' interest in you with some really yummy treats and praise, etc. From what I've seen on here, resource guarding is a pretty common problem among the track dogs who have never had to share anything before. Correct the bullying behavior, and actively work on rewarding 'good' behavior in a situation that you can control better.

 

We've taught Hermes a specific noise that means "Don't do that". When you're first working on it, you may have to be pretty firm about it until he really understands that your word, or noise, or w/ever means "stop what you're doing!"

 

Good luck! It's nice that you're still giving him a shot. If it still doesn't get better after you've worked with him... maybe Angus needs a different environment. No shame in that!