Guest charlech Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I have not posted in a long time but I'm desperate and am very troubled by this behavior. A little back ground first..... I have a 2 1/2 yr. old boy, I began fostering when he was 6 mo. We've been taking agility for almost 2 years with a couple Controlled Unleashed classes in between, and a fly ball class. He goes every where with me if he can and is very well socialized. Small kids (and some big) used to frighten him but he now seems to be okay with them he stands there and lets them pet him and when he's had enough he starts to walk away. He was more partial to men because at the rescue (he was only a couple months old) the husband took up a lot of time with him, he seems to really like women now laying his head on them and asking for more head rubs. Here's what happened, in the last couple of weeks he has snapped at 2 very elderly men, I didn't see what or how they approached him so I was thinking he just doesn't like elderly men but this morning he snapped at my neighbor (young woman). They are in the act of petting him and then he quickly turns his head and snaps at them. oh I have to say that just a few weeks ago (before all this started) a man at my daughters softball game dug his fingers into his back when I was watching the game, the dog screamed and snapped at him and I think that is when all this started. I gave the guy an evil look and told him my dog does not like that, and he insisted he does this to his German Sheppard’s and they are fine with it. I had to tell him that my dog has no fat, and it probably does not feel good to him. (that really made me angry). How do I fix this? I'm so afraid for anyone to pet him now. He has been such an advocate for Greyhound rescue, I don't want to ruin this. By the way he is doing well in agility and we will begin our first competition soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mbfilby Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I would check him over well. He might have a sore spot, an ear infection, sore tooth etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeofNE Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Sounds like he's in pain somewhere. Quote Susan, Hamish, Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kudzu Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Ditto on the vet check. Pain is first thought, some other illness second. Have known several dogs whose brewing medical issues were first expressed with snapping at people &/or other dogs in certain circumstances. Hopefully there is an easily found & remedied issue. If it isn't medical then there are ways to work with such behavioral issues. Those won't help though if the root of the problem is medical but somehow missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest charlech Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks for the suggestions, I will have him checked out. My trainer noticed that his back look out of line (could be a result of him flying through the air for balls, he jumps and tugs like a B.C.) so I took him to a chiropractor, where he was checked, massaged, b12 shots and acupuncture. After all that he was more enthusiastic about agility than ever before, and back to playing hard. The chiropractor who is also a DMV who did all this did tell me with him being so active that I should stretch him out and massage more, which I've been doing but not enough. So I'll try the massage and maybe try taking him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TDotGreys Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) Another vote for pain. Sounds like my sport dog (Kelpie) who has a low threshold and will snap if he is uncomfortable. Chiro (also a DVM) worked wonders, and he is good as gold now. Edited June 12, 2011 by TDotGreys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FullMetalFrank Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I agree with the pain theory. I'd guess that he's sore somewhere, and the guy that "mauled" him at the ball game (for lack of a better term) probably hit that spot and now he's leery of being touched. Get him checked out especially before he competes again; wouldn't want to aggravate anything he has going on. The book, Care of the Racing and Retired Greyhound, has a really good section on stretching and assessing any painful areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TDotGreys Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I also think it's important to go to a sport rehab therapist. If you were in Ontario, I would recommend Leslie Woodcock. She really knows her stuff, and she won't fleece you. My Kelpie was fixed in one session, went for one follow up, and she said he was good until pain returned (if it does). It wasn't an ongoing thing. I like our vet, but Leslie did more for my Kelpie in under $100 than my vet ever did for HUNDREDS of dollars. If you aren't in Ontario, the best I can suggest is ask around the Agility community because they usually know who the best sport rehab vets are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 With the memory of the man at the game fresh in his mind, he probably associates all strangers who go to pet him, with that bad experience. I would work on positive reinforcement. Muzzle him and have unfamiliar people pet him gently. If he reacts in a positive manner praise him and/or give a treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kudzu Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Brian's suggestion to use positive reinforcement is a good one. The method he described using operant conditioning. While that may help on its own in some situations & most definitely is a good idea in general to a dog's good reactions to strangers, in this situation I don't think that's the best place to start. Not saying it's a bad suggestion, just that it may more appropriate if used as part of a bigger plan. First step is still to determine if there is a medical issue & then treat it. Next may be to work with a behaviorist or trainer familiar with programs for desensitization & classical conditioning to help the hound relearn to pleasant associations with strangers. The difference between classical & operant conditioning has to do with when you use the reinforcer/reward. In operant you are looking for a desired behavior & when the dogs does that you reinforce it with a reward. In classical conditioning you the reward (& I'm not sure that's the right term) is not contingent on the dog's behavior. You are just trying to pair something the dogs finds very pleasing with the thing he finds disturbing. So for example if he starts to react as soon as a stranger appears then you would start dispensing the "reward" right then regardless of the dogs behavior. As soon as the trigger, like the appearance of a stranger, leaves you stop dispensing the "reward". The idea is something like this. Currently he sees the appearance of a stranger as a predictor of something unpleasant. So through classical conditioning you work to pair the strangers with something very good. Strangers appear & good things happen. Those good things stop when the stranger leaves. Do it consistently and you can change that gut reaction of his from concern something unpleasant is about to happen to anticipation of the good thing that has consistently been happening. [Note: I'm not a trainer or behaviorist so am not telling you this is what needs to be done. It's just an example of a way to possibly help.] Classical conditioning works to create something more like an unconscious reaction. He feels his body reacting to a stimulus but does not consciously cause himself to feel that way. Operant conditioning works to get the dog thinking about how his actions & their consequences. He can make good things happen by doing something first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Brian's suggestion to use positive reinforcement is a good one. The method he described using operant conditioning. While that may help on its own in some situations & most definitely is a good idea in general to a dog's good reactions to strangers, in this situation I don't think that's the best place to start. Not saying it's a bad suggestion, just that it may more appropriate if used as part of a bigger plan. First step is still to determine if there is a medical issue & then treat it. Next may be to work with a behaviorist or trainer familiar with programs for desensitization & classical conditioning to help the hound relearn to pleasant associations with strangers. The difference between classical & operant conditioning has to do with when you use the reinforcer/reward. In operant you are looking for a desired behavior & when the dogs does that you reinforce it with a reward. In classical conditioning you the reward (& I'm not sure that's the right term) is not contingent on the dog's behavior. You are just trying to pair something the dogs finds very pleasing with the thing he finds disturbing. So for example if he starts to react as soon as a stranger appears then you would start dispensing the "reward" right then regardless of the dogs behavior. As soon as the trigger, like the appearance of a stranger, leaves you stop dispensing the "reward". The idea is something like this. Currently he sees the appearance of a stranger as a predictor of something unpleasant. So through classical conditioning you work to pair the strangers with something very good. Strangers appear & good things happen. Those good things stop when the stranger leaves. Do it consistently and you can change that gut reaction of his from concern something unpleasant is about to happen to anticipation of the good thing that has consistently been happening. [Note: I'm not a trainer or behaviorist so am not telling you this is what needs to be done. It's just an example of a way to possibly help.] Classical conditioning works to create something more like an unconscious reaction. He feels his body reacting to a stimulus but does not consciously cause himself to feel that way. Operant conditioning works to get the dog thinking about how his actions & their consequences. He can make good things happen by doing something first. Agree entirely. Although I'm not sure you need a behaviorist. The short version of this is simply this - person touches dog as you feed the treat (high value), person stops touching, food stops (rather than person touches dog, you wait (he likely reacts) and then you feed). Kudzu did an excellent job of explaining the theory, I'm just giving you the cliff notes. And yes, rule out a medical issue first. I would also start the training with people he knows and is comfortable with to start to create the association, them move on to less familiar people, then total strangers. I think this is probably easily undone. And in the meantime, no petting from strangers unless you're set up with really high value treats and have told the person how it's gonna' go. Also, moving forward, it's probably important for you to think about when he's tolerating something versus enjoying it given his previous shyness. Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kudzu Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Kudzu did an excellent job of explaining the theory, I'm just giving you the cliff notes. Hey, that was my condensed version. I think the cliff notes folks have me on their "Do Not Hire" list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) Kudzu did an excellent job of explaining the theory, I'm just giving you the cliff notes. Hey, that was my condensed version. I think the cliff notes folks have me on their "Do Not Hire" list. My bad. ETA: It really was an excellent summary of the difference between the 2 types of training, I just think sometimes people see training theory and their eyes glaze over. I had a hard time not adding to what you were saying as there seems to really be a movement among the more experienced trainers to use more classical conditioning again (?) instead of operant and it's sort of a point I'm stuck on right now myself. There, now you've got me going on about it, happy? Edited June 15, 2011 by NeylasMom Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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