Need Food Suggestions...

[Guest zookieninasmom]

We used to feed technical. Nina started itching like crazy, assumed it was an allergy, switched to Orijen. All better. Was super expensive, so tried proplan (dogs also were loosing some weight, Dh though), allergies back. Went to Acana (same manufacturer as Orijen), all good, but dogs still appear to be losing weight. DH feeds more, they poop more, no better.

Now what? We had them weighed, they are both 10 pounds lighter than usual. The vet said to try a different food. Acana and Orijen are high protein foods. We're thinking they need a more caloric food. Any ideas? We live in Canada now, but will be moving to Maryland next month.

 

Thank you!!!

 

ps - zooks is almost 11 years old and Nina is 8. Nina showed the allergies most, but Zooks was itching too. it stopped when we switched foods.

[Guest mcsheltie]

I can't recommend specific brands of food because I have no idea what your local stores carry. The way for you to figure this out is to compare the ingredient list of the foods that caused the itching to the ingredient list of Acana & Orijen. For starters the other foods you mentioned have grain, Acana & Orijen do not. But also check protein sources and other ingredients. Anything could be the cause.

 

Each kibble will have the kcals listed on the bag. Calorie intake, not the protein content will dictate of they loose or gain weight. If what you were previously feeding has more kcals than Acana or Orijen, then your dogs will loose weigh if fed the same amount. Be sure to use the same kcal measurement when comparing, e.g. kcals per cup or kcals per kg

[Batmom]

What mcsheltie said.

 

Also, at times you have to ignore the amount of poop. I've fed some grain-free kibbles and with most, the poop volume is way more than what i see with "regular" kibbles.

[Guest BobbiD]

We used to feed technical. Nina started itching like crazy, assumed it was an allergy, switched to Orijen. All better. Was super expensive, so tried proplan (dogs also were loosing some weight, Dh though), allergies back. Went to Acana (same manufacturer as Orijen), all good, but dogs still appear to be losing weight. DH feeds more, they poop more, no better.

Now what? We had them weighed, they are both 10 pounds lighter than usual. The vet said to try a different food. Acana and Orijen are high protein foods. We're thinking they need a more caloric food. Any ideas? We live in Canada now, but will be moving to Maryland next month.

 

Thank you!!!

 

ps - zooks is almost 11 years old and Nina is 8. Nina showed the allergies most, but Zooks was itching too. it stopped when we switched foods.

[Guest BobbiD]

We have a springer with skin allergies. She is on Natural Balance Lamb and Rice which is grain free. Our greyhound is on that as well since she has a chicken allergy. Our other springer is on Natural Balance Ultra Premium. It is the number 1 rated dog food that we found and has more calories than the lamb and rice. Petco has the best price plus they have a get one free plan when you buy 10 bags.

Willow's skin allergies have been since she was about one. Try a probiotic for dogs. She tends to get fungal infections easily and the probiotic helps with that.

[Guest manawatugal]

BobbiD - sorry but rice is a grain. Not as bad as wheat though.

Grains are" wheat, rice, oats, barley, rye, etc

[Guest BobbiD]

BobbiD - sorry but rice is a grain. Not as bad as wheat though.

Grains are" wheat, rice, oats, barley, rye, etc

 

Yes rice is a grain. what I meant to say was the Natural Balance we feed is a "limited ingredient diet"

The point I was trying to make is we have two dogs with skin, coat, food allergies, etc. and the food we found that soothes them is Natural Balance lamb and rice.

It may work for some, and it may not. Just trying to be helpful.

[Nichole]

Natural Balance has a few grain free foods. I feed Fish and Sweet Potato. They have vension, bison and duck that are also grain free. When looking at a grain free diet also stay away from wheat flour, rice flour, barley flour. Look for potato flour. Mother Hubbard also makes a grain free treat and so does NB. My two have never had beef,lamb,chicken or grains of any kind because of allergies.

[Guest d0ggiem0mma]

If your pooch needs to gain weight, I would try a diet higher in carbs. The Orijen is designed as a limited carb diet. Either try something with a more novel grain like oats or something with more potato in it. Avoid corn and wheat as they are the most likely culprits when it comes to a grain allergy. A fish and potato product might be a good way to go. There are great fish/potato diets available from California Natural and Wellness. Natural Balance also makes one.

[Guest zookieninasmom]

Thank you everyone! We're hesitant to get one main thing started now and then not be able to find it when we move, so I'm not sure what we'll do in the meantime. I didnt realize Orijen was limited carb, but it makes sense. I will check out all your suggestions. Nina's allergy was a weird one, Zooks reacted the same but to a lesser degree and it was after they had been on the food for years, it just suddenly showed up.

Also, DH corrected me, if he feeds them more food than usual, they don't just poop more, they get diarrhea.

We're also trying to keep our costs down, which will have some say in our decision, unfortunately.

 

I wanted to add - we have tried the fish foods, and the gas they get with them is horrid. When I was pregnant I couldn't take it anymore so I went into the pet store and begged the clerk to find me something to relieve it! It was horrible! Thats why we switched to the Orijen red meat instead of the salmon.

Edited March 20, 2011 by zookieninasmom

[Greytlady94]

Your best bet is too make a list of foods you are considering (cost wise and available) and spend some time looking at the manufacture's website for ingredients and calories. For weight gain you want more calories per cup because just adding more food may cause loose stool as your DH has found.

 

Examples.... (I haven't fed either of these foods because I don't feed kibble)

 

Origen Regional Red 480 kcal per cup

 

Solid Gold Wolf King 364 kcal per cup

[Guest d0ggiem0mma]

I know some of the brands I mentioned also make a Venison and Potato variety which may work better if the fish creates toxic gasses

 

Feeding too much of the low-carb foods always makes for the big 'D' in my experience. Hopefully something with a higher fiber content will keep the poo a little more regular and allow them to gain some weight.

[Guest BobbiD]

manawatugal - my husband added the last reply, he's not as stressed out as me so listen up. My springer has wheat allergies and my greyhound has chicken allergies and Natural Balance has allergy formulas for dogs with such problems.

I'm sorry my help was not grain proper enough for you. But I've had more important things on my mind like the fact that my 4 yr old greyhound went blind two weeks ago with SARDS (Sudden Acute Retinal Deterioration Syndrome) and then 12 days later developed Trigeminal Neuritis (her lower jaw muscles are paralyzed) and can't eat or drink without help. And we've only had her 3 months. So again, I'm sorry about my grain faux pas. I joined greytalk to find a resource to help with my girl, and maybe help someone else. But you have made it obvious that this is not for me. I'll find my help somewhere else, with people who care not people who want to nitpick everything I write.

[Guest greyhound9797]

manawatugal - my husband added the last reply, he's not as stressed out as me so listen up. My springer has wheat allergies and my greyhound has chicken allergies and Natural Balance has allergy formulas for dogs with such problems.

I'm sorry my help was not grain proper enough for you. But I've had more important things on my mind like the fact that my 4 yr old greyhound went blind two weeks ago with SARDS (Sudden Acute Retinal Deterioration Syndrome) and then 12 days later developed Trigeminal Neuritis (her lower jaw muscles are paralyzed) and can't eat or drink without help. And we've only had her 3 months. So again, I'm sorry about my grain faux pas. I joined greytalk to find a resource to help with my girl, and maybe help someone else. But you have made it obvious that this is not for me. I'll find my help somewhere else, with people who care not people who want to nitpick everything I write.

Bobbi, please don't take offense to manawatugal's post. It was meant to help, not criticize. S/He was simply pointing out that rice is a grain when you said your dog had a grain allergy. No one is here to attack you.

 

I'm sorry that you are going through so many health issues with your hound. GT has many people who have gone through many different experiences and are here to help everyone so please don't let one comment force you to leave the group. We are here to help you so if you have questions or need support, this really is the place to be. I understand that you are under a tremendous amount of stress right now but give GT another chance.

 

Sandra in FL

[Batmom]

Bobbi, don't let the food nazis get you down. There are plenty of us here who use common sense and don't follow the current fanatic fads in dog food.

 

Scritchies to your pupper.

[4My2Greys]

Bobbi, don't let the food nazis get you down. There are plenty of us here who use common sense and don't follow the current fanatic fads in dog food.

 

Scritchies to your pupper.

 

Just because someone points out that rice is also a grain does not make them a food nazi. It was not written with a sarcastic tone. It was probably pointed out because the OP has mentioned where twice they have fed a grain laden food with resulting itching and twice they have switched to grain free and the problem goes away. Just because some dogs are fine with grains it does not mean that all are and a person isn't a food nazi for wanting to find what is best for their dog.

[Batmom]

Just because someone points out that rice is also a grain does not make them a food nazi. It was not written with a sarcastic tone. It was probably pointed out because the OP has mentioned where twice they have fed a grain laden food with resulting itching and twice they have switched to grain free and the problem goes away. Just because some dogs are fine with grains it does not mean that all are and a person isn't a food nazi for wanting to find what is best for their dog.

 

Dogs aren't allergic to "grains." Allergies are to particular elements of foods. The allergen might be a grain, an oil, a fruit, a nut, a vegetable, a meat .....

[4My2Greys]

Just because someone points out that rice is also a grain does not make them a food nazi. It was not written with a sarcastic tone. It was probably pointed out because the OP has mentioned where twice they have fed a grain laden food with resulting itching and twice they have switched to grain free and the problem goes away. Just because some dogs are fine with grains it does not mean that all are and a person isn't a food nazi for wanting to find what is best for their dog.

 

Dogs aren't allergic to "grains." Allergies are to particular elements of foods. The allergen might be a grain, an oil, a fruit, a nut, a vegetable, a meat .....

 

Well both of the "grain" foods that were fed with resulting bad effects contained rice which is very likely the culprit. And in this instance since it is extremely hard to find a "grain" dogfood that does not contain rice it is easier to just say feed "grain-

free".

 

ETA: Found this article on food allergies that I thought was good and no it does not attack "grains" as the only source of the problem.

 

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2&aid=143

Edited March 20, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Guest greyhound9797]

Bobbi, don't let the food nazis get you down. There are plenty of us here who use common sense and don't follow the current fanatic fads in dog food.

 

Scritchies to your pupper.

 

Batmom, just because someone points out that rice is also a grain does not make them a food nazi. It was not written with a sarcastic tone. It was probably pointed out because the OP has mentioned where twice they have fed a grain laden food with resulting itching and twice they have switched to grain free and the problem goes away. Just because some dogs are fine with grains it does not mean that all are and a person isn't a food nazi for wanting to find what is best for their dog.

Nor does someone who offers a simple suggestion make them a "nazi". And why would you use such a term on a public forum? Furthermore, why would you imply that someone who disagrees with a posters way of thinking not be using "common sense" and then suggest they are following a "fad"? I know you are anti-raw and consider people like me who feed a raw diet a "nazi", nut, fad follower or other derogatory term. A raw diet is not a fad, it is simply another way to feed your pet.

 

I don't think that condescending fellow users on the forum is friendly or polite; nor should it be tolerated. If you don't like what you read, ignore it, do not start inflaming.

 

Sandra in FL

Edited March 20, 2011 by greyhound9797

[Batmom]

If you don't like what you read, ignore it, do not start inflaming.

 

You might consider that?

[Guest Swifthounds]

Yeesh. I can't wait to tell my favorite chef that she's a food nazi because she knows that rice is a grain.

 

Julie (mcsheltie) gave some very good advice. My only caveat would be that while, yes kcals can determine weight loss or gain, how those kcals break down in terms of protein, fat, and carb percentage will be reflected in body composition. Where energy tends to come from carbs (grain or non grain), the body composition will appear to have more bulk whereas energy from fats and proteins will give the dog a leaner look. It's an important consideration when you're judging by the appearance of the dog. A leaner dog can weigh the same as it did when it was bulkier and look much smaller in build.

 

Yes, to some extent "grain free" has become a buzzword fad in the dog food realm. To the extent it has merit, it is because grains are irritating to the GIT of a carnivore and, honestly, aren't all that great for us omnivores, either. They are difficult to digest (even for humans, who have much, much longer GI tracts than do dogs), they spike insulin levels, and they really contribute nothing positive to health. We eat them because they are cheap and tasty. We feed them to dogs because it provides a cheap energy source and an outlet for grains that don't pass the standards for human consumption.

 

The "grain free" movements started because dogs were having difficulties digestively and skin-wise that did not manifest when grains were removed from the diet. Someone came up with the great idea that you could market expensive prescription "allergy" foods with non-grain carbs and novel proteins. Then they realized that lots of dogs seemed to have these symptoms to some extent, and started marketing "grain free" kibbles made with non-grain carbs. The trick is that a dog can be reactive to a non-grain carb as well. Thus, they may do better on a grain kibble than a non grain, and on one non-grain vs. another.

 

Lots of kibbles, both grain and non grain, may produce a ton of stool. Just because a food doesn't have grain, doesn't mean it doesn't have vegetation. Dogs weren't designed to consume vegetation and their bodies can't process it very well, even when it's partially broken down by cooking and grinding. Much of it just passes on through in much the same condition. Some of the foods that omits grains actually have way more in vegetattion/carbs from other sources, and thus produce more waste.

 

To find a commercial food you can live with, consider the ingredients, kcals, and fat/protein percentages. An older hound will need the same or more protein to maintain muscle mass than a young dog would. You'll find that certain ingredients will produce symptoms and others will not and that your hounds will need a certain amount of kcals to maintain weight. This may mean you'll have to stick to foods with a certain kcal amount to avoid feeding a boat load of food to the dog as well.

 

Lots of considerations in diet, but it's not impossible. It is, however, why I chuckle when folks ask me, "Isn't it a lot of time and work to feed raw?" The kibble crawl is a lot easier when you only have a dog or two to manage.

[Batmom]

My only caveat would be that while, yes kcals can determine weight loss or gain, how those kcals break down in terms of protein, fat, and carb percentage will be reflected in body composition. Where energy tends to come from carbs (grain or non grain), the body composition will appear to have more bulk whereas energy from fats and proteins will give the dog a leaner look.

 

Nope. For the most part, calories are calories. There are a few minor deviations, and a few oddities that you'd get into at the extremes of feeding a single thing, but a moderately balanced diet isn't going to produce different body shapes or tone.

 

Dogs use cooked grains and other carbs quite well, as do humans.

 

Technically speaking, dogs don't need to *eat* carbs directly, but they do need carbs. That's what their (and our) cells run on.

 

 

 

[Guest Swifthounds]

My only caveat would be that while, yes kcals can determine weight loss or gain, how those kcals break down in terms of protein, fat, and carb percentage will be reflected in body composition. Where energy tends to come from carbs (grain or non grain), the body composition will appear to have more bulk whereas energy from fats and proteins will give the dog a leaner look.

 

Nope. For the most part, calories are calories. There are a few minor deviations, and a few oddities that you'd get into at the extremes of feeding a single thing, but a moderately balanced diet isn't going to produce different body shapes or tone.

 

Perhaps you've not fed a variety of commercial and whole food sourced diets to carnivores and studied the differences. Everything from wild cats and other large carnivores to wolves, dogs, and domestic cats have different body composition tendencies on different diets. If source of calories had no impact on body composition, your body would look exactly the same on 2500 pasta calories versus 2500 beef calories - and it does not. The before and after photos of some of the GTers from the Primal thread are a good human study.

 

Humans do use cooked grains "quite well" - they just do so to the detriment of their overall health. Dogs have neither the salivary acids, grinding teeth, or comparatively long GI tracts necessary to do much with grains other than pass them on through. To the extent a dog needs carbs, what it needs is glucose that the body can store in liver and muscle tissue as glycogen. Carnivores need glucose/glycogen for energy, but they don't need (or even ideally) get it from vegetation, complex carbs, or grains.

[Batmom]

Perhaps you've not fed a variety of commercial and whole food sourced diets to carnivores and studied the differences. Everything from wild cats and other large carnivores to wolves, dogs, and domestic cats have different body composition tendencies on different diets. If source of calories had no impact on body composition, your body would look exactly the same on 2500 pasta calories versus 2500 beef calories - and it does not. The before and after photos of some of the GTers from the Primal thread are a good human study.

 

Humans do use cooked grains "quite well" - they just do so to the detriment of their overall health. Dogs have neither the salivary acids, grinding teeth, or comparatively long GI tracts necessary to do much with grains other than pass them on through. To the extent a dog needs carbs, what it needs is glucose that the body can store in liver and muscle tissue as glycogen. Carnivores need glucose/glycogen for energy, but they don't need (or even ideally) get it from vegetation, complex carbs, or grains.

 

Popular myths, I'm afraid.

 

I like science instead .

[Guest Swifthounds]

That is science. Science you ignore or don't like is still science.