Bomb Proofing A Fragile Dog....

[Guest brandi007]

Hi All!

 

Some of you may know me and my dog Hannah.....the bean. I love her to death and she is just the cutest little dog ever, I wouldn't trade her for the world.

 

This being said, Hannah has had - and still has her issues, we've worked through a lot of them but one big one I've just never been able to curb is what I believe to be fear aggression. I want to have kids one day - I'm getting married next summer and it looks like it's going to be in the cards within the next 3-4 years, so I want to start now. Hannah's reactive of people, dogs, cats, etc getting in her space, she's never bitten anyone or anything but she sure comes close.

 

I believe she's an insecure bully - she growls and snaps at other dogs and sometimes people. Sometimes someone will be petting her and she'll just air snap in their face (never contact) and growl/bark loudly. I know this is a warning and tell people all the time that if she wanted to hurt you, she would but I'm wondering if there are things I can start doing with her to make her a little more bomb proof? I'd like to start earlier than later. I know a trained dog behaviorist will be in the cards the closer I get to the big wedding date (I've had one in for other issues) but I want to start now, I also think she'd be a happier dog if she didn't think the whole world was out to get her.

 

Suggestions are welcome to help me and my beautiful baby girl!

[Houndtime]

We took John E to the U of P to a behaviorist for evaluation. He was placed on a low dose prozac for anxiety, and there were several training exercises that we had to do with him

 

We walked him in a head halter and eventually would keep him muzzled at greyhound events. Though he never bit another dog, he would make a lot of growly noise and seemed to be agressive; definitely fear agressive.

 

While, we were initially against muzzling him, it worked, better than a red bandana because the visual made people aware and they kept their dogs out of his face. So many people are just unaware of their own dogs at greyhound events.

 

I must add, though, the John E's issues were never with people and he loved children.

 

Good luck and I think it is good thing that you are being proactive.

[Guest Lovey_Hounds]

Give me call im pretty sure i can help you with this... we can make it a fun experience for for 9 or we will try our best).

She may come around she has been ok with Jocelyn petting her a few times and she has stopped trying to scare chili with her "happy noises/face"

[Guest brandi007]

I will for sure Brandi! We'll have to make arrangements -

 

She's just so hit or miss, she still even barks growls at Sophie, me and Kelly!

[Guest Lovey_Hounds]

We will figure out something that will work to help her out.

[greysmom]

Good luck working with Brandi! Excellent to have some assistance and advice!

 

One thing that will definitely help is obedience training, either individual or group sessions. They're usually controlled pretty well and everyone is focused. You could even talk to a trainer and see if they would let you monitor a class and just take her and sit. Use the time for desensitization with clikcer training. Obedience training would help give her confidence as well, which is another key factor with anxious dogs. Give her other behaviors that she can do instead of being always on the lookout for stuff to be afraid of.

 

Good luck and congratulations!

 

 

[Batmom]

Has she met children? My angel Zema had some things in common with your girl re being reactive ...... But, except for getting a smidge overexcited/rough when playing, she did great with children. From her point of view, children were MUCH less offensive than large adult strangers, other dogs, etc.

 

Hugs and best luck.

[Guest SpicyMom]

A friend of mine who is a dog trainer has sometimes recommended playing recordings of babies sounds (crying especially) at gradually louder volumes to get the dog used to that and has even recommended to some folks that they borrow or go to Goodwill and buy a couple of dolls, baby sized and toddler sized and gradually "invade" the dogs space with them to desensitize them to these smaller beings. Some dogs who are reactive to people/kids who are bigger than them (i.e. come at them from above to pet them) are less reactive to someone smaller than them. But, you could also use the dolls to start gently "poking" the dog, or pulling it's tail or touching its feet, i.e. the most common things small ones might do. I did that with my cats before my first son made his appearance. I started slowly (and gently) pulling on the cats' tails, rubbing their ears, etc. Now, I can hold the cat upside down by it's tail and it won't bite or fight! (Not that I DO that for fun or anything, just when I'm grabbing for the cat as its trying to dig under the fence and slip out!)

[Guest brandi007]

Has she met children? My angel Zema had some things in common with your girl re being reactive ...... But, except for getting a smidge overexcited/rough when playing, she did great with children. From her point of view, children were MUCH less offensive than large adult strangers, other dogs, etc.

 

Hugs and best luck.

 

Hannah's met my nieces and she did the snap/bark/growl at them (which went over like a lead balloon with grandma and grandpa). She's pretty much done it with everything - kids, cats, big dogs, small dogs, greyhounds, my DB, my Roomy, Sophie....me? You get the picture. She's just a very insecure dog, she went for the cable guy the other day too after they had a good introduction downstairs.

 

Like I said, she's not a mean dog - if she was there would be plenty of dogs and people out there with plenty of stitches! She's just no confident and feels the need to make up for it with her 'little big man' snarly face.

 

She's gotten better with it, way better! But it's still a big issue - I just want her to be happy and I want to eventually be able to have kids and have her be a big part in their life also! I know it's in her - she really is a sweet snuggly dog.

 

We've done 2 rounds of dogs school and a pet behaviorist. At dog school - both times - the instructor pretty much gave up on doing tricks like sit, stay, leave it and we worked more on desensitizing her to all the dogs around her. Even the instructor agreed that she's not an aggressive dog and thinks she even has it in her to one day be a therapy dog but we have a pretty big mountain to climb right now before I'd even bring her on a home visit, let alone to a hospital!

 

Thanks for the suggestions so far, please keep them coming!

[Batmom]

With Zema, we found it worked better *to* focus on the sits, stays, etc. For example, she knew she was supposed to sit and stay and NOT nail the dog that broke his stay and ran joyfully straight up to her. She just sat there staring straight ahead, looking put upon, lifting her lip, and growling under her breath. Of course YMMV. But, she was a smart girl and very willing to do what she was supposed to do unless the provocation was extreme. She just had to know what she was supposed to do in these circumstances, and to have that reinforced. So at class and on outings, we worked on her paying attention to me rather than paying attention to the other dogs, people, etc.

[Guest Shermanator]

Echo had a lot of fear aggression when we first brought her home. She would go for it like Cujo. It was scary, and frustrating- we wanted her to be a happy, sociable girl, who we could take with us for day trips hiking, and etc.

We worked with a behaviorist to help her. One of the biggest things I learned, was that I was a part of her problem. I was always worried she'd bite someone, or another dog, so I was always tense when I took her out, or when new people came into my home. I had to learn to be confident, and she would feed off my reaction to her.

Now, we did a lot of other things with her, and the fear aggression subsided as she become more comfortable in our home, and knew we were not going to leave her. (She was a bounce after a year, the product of a divorce.)

I knew I couldn't help her on my own, I needed a professional. But, she's a happy sociable little girl. However, I am still vigilant when new people enter our home, and when we are out in public, just in case she starts to feel insecure. I am still confident with her, and do not show any stress to her, I just simply watch my surroundings, so a person or another dog does not startle her, and may trigger a fear reaction from her. So far, so good.

[Guest brandi007]

She's a really difficult dog to put in school and the instructors I've had have been very understanding. The thing about Hannah is she's not food motivated AT ALL! If you had her a cookie you're lucky if she takes it from your hand, if you give her a hot dog she takes a good 10 minutes to eat it and usually won't eat it right away. She's very praise and toy motivated but this completely shuts down in school because she's so concerned about what's going on around her. Getting her into a sit without the whole "Lift head and plant butt" is very difficult and the second you raise the treat upwards (we're talking like cheese filled sausages, liver bites, everything....) her head goes down and she stares at the floor. If you touch her butt she just flips out and circles around fast....she's the first dog I've had that I can't get a sit (or down, doesn't matter which). Heck, getting her to walk into the class was a huge chore!

 

Not making excuses but if anyone has any other ideas on how I could get her to focus on 'tasks' without food that would be awesome

[Guest Ashleigh]

I was just think about the 'no touch, no sound, no eye contact' theory that you should tell everyone. But then, that doesn't explain why she does it to you and your fiance---congratulations, btw! I've also read about dog psychology and how when the new baby arrives, to put a soiled diaper in the kennel with the dog. That way the dog can recognize the smell and associate it with their safe place. But as for suggestions before baby comes, I'm at a loss. It sounds like you've tried so much of anything else I can think of. Bad, bad Hannah! Maybe more spanks?

 

I'm only kidding about the spanks...no one get mad at me!

[greysmom]

Is there any time when she feels comfortable enough to take treats?? Some quiet time with you in your home when she's relaxed? If you can clicker train her during those times to the point where she already associates the clicker with "good thing" then getting her to focus in class or other situations might be easier.

 

Also, a trainer I know sometimes uses a replacement squeaker for stuffies (or a small squeaky toy) instead of treats for non-food-motivated pups.

[Batmom]

Depending on your time and $$ availability (and instructor's continued understanding), you might try taking her to a class -- one that will have the same participants for 6-8 weeks -- and do just what you said. Work on heeling, using praise and toy for rewards. I have known dogs whom it took several months of weekly class to relax enough to learn anything. Long haul, tho, and you have to judge whether it would be of benefit or not. Most places I took Zema other than class, I didn't use treats, just voice and patience.

[Guest jenznaz]

How long have you had her?

[FountainLady]

She sounds like a dog that could benefit greatly from being worked with with the TTOUCH methods of Linda Tellington-Jones! If you google up Linda Tellington-Jones you can find TTOUCH practioners in your area that can work with you and your dog. Reactive and unpredictable dogs do so very well with her no stress methods.

[Guest brandi007]

How long have you had her?

 

I've had her since November, 2007....Like I said, she's had a lot of issues and she has blossomed into an absolutely awesome little girl! I'm very proud of her - even with this issue she's come a long way. She can sleep with me in my bed now (couldn't before because she'd wake up and bark/snap in my face), you can sit beside her, you can hug her and as long as everybody's moving (ie, walking) she can walk with other dogs, issues only start up when we're stopped. My fave thing she's overcome is she doesn't poo on the floor anymore!!!! Yaaaay (did this for 2 years....uggg). She now actually enjoys her walks now too, rather than doing an alligator roll 5 steps out the door.

 

Methods I've used that have worked have been

 

1) Always letting her know where I am before I touch her (calling her name before hugs)

 

2) My dog Park: It's huge and when it's half capacity and under I love this place! She gets to meet new people in a positive way (who are dog lovers) and can 'sneaky sniff' other dogs. She's made a few 'friends' who understand her ways and don't flip out when she makes a little bit of noise. When she has a good interaction with another dog (ie no growling) she gets tons of praise from everyone and lots of butt scritches - when it's a normal reaction for Hannah (ie growling/air snapping) everyone is very forgiving of her and just ignore or laugh at her, when its going to turn bad, we leave!

 

3) Sitting on a bench in a high traffic area (like the river front bike/walking path) and giving tons of praise when she looks at other dogs and doesn't growl. Also gives me a chance to hawk the breed and my adoption group...muahahaha

 

4) Dog school - this helped me more than it helped her. At the time I thought I had no confidence with me or with her, this was the first time someone told me I had a great dog and was willing to work with me. Most other people wouldn't come near me and her usually with some rather rude remarks... Dog school gave me the confidence I needed to work with Hannah even though she didn't learn much

 

I'm going to continue with these methods, the only thing I'm really iffy with is her meeting kids. With my nieces I tell them not to go near her bed but if she comes over to say hi to you, give her a nice gentle pet on the head. I try to give them pieces of food (hot dogs) to give Hannah if she comes and says hi. My mom doesn't like it but she's definitely better than she was before with them.

 

She has good days and she has bad days - I know she'll never be a meet and greet dog but it'd be nice if I could take her on home visits as my other girl is going to be 12 this year and I don't know how much longer she can do the interviews. It'd also be nice to foster one day without her making the new fresh off the track dog's life a living hell, and I know one day I'll be looking to get another greyhound (I hope a long, long time from now) but I know Hannah needs a buddy and so will I. I know kids are in the cards soon too and as I said above, I just think she'd be happier.

 

Do you think a dog behaviorist would be more advantageous than another round of dog school?

 

 

Edited to Add, I've had one consultation with a Dog behaviorist but this was more to deal with the poo problem. I've done one 4 week intro course for dog school and one 6 or 8 week full course with her.

 

She has a hard time taking cookies from my hand even in a quiet environment. Her and Sophie always get cookies before I leave for work and I have to put hers in front of her and she won't touch it until I'm gone.

Edited March 4, 2011 by brandi007

[Guest Giselle]

My two cents: Skip group classes and find a private trainer. Group classes are great for socialization, but Hannah has serious personal issues that need to be sorted out, and that requires the focus of a devoted, committed, knowledgeable trainer.

 

However, please be aware that the terms "professional trainer" and "professional behaviorist" have no weight at all in my book. I would use extreme caution when choosing a "behaviorist" and always be aware to take their own selling points with a grain of salt. Believe me, I have worked with dozens and have received the failed cases of dozens more "professional trainers/behaviorists". They are not all created equal, they all tout to be the best or most effective, and I have met VERY few of whom I would even let handle a mildly challenging dog. Some food for thought. Really, you have to find a good trainer - one who knows his/her theories, knows how to apply them, knows how to be flexible, knows alternative methods, knows about the caveats of medication, etc. It's a lot to ask for from a dog trainer, but, hey, if you're going to be paying upwards of $60/hr for one of these guys, they *should* know their stuff! If you need help finding a behaviorist, feel free to PM me, too.

 

Can I also reiterate greysmom's question? When IS Hannah food motivated? I notice that you say she's unable to reach when in public/in class, but that is to be expected because she's way over her threshold/tolerance level. But, at home, is she motivated by hot dogs, food rolls, jerky, plain meat? Have you tried withholding breakfast from her and using that hunger to train her in the morning? Dinner works, too! If we can grab hold of her motivation and get her performing in a comfortable situation, we can easily ask more of her in more difficult situations. Baby steps; but, first, we need to find her a motivation

[Guest brandi007]

Can I also reiterate greysmom's question? When IS Hannah food motivated? I notice that you say she's unable to reach when in public/in class, but that is to be expected because she's way over her threshold/tolerance level. But, at home, is she motivated by hot dogs, food rolls, jerky, plain meat? Have you tried withholding breakfast from her and using that hunger to train her in the morning? Dinner works, too! If we can grab hold of her motivation and get her performing in a comfortable situation, we can easily ask more of her in more difficult situations. Baby steps; but, first, we need to find her a motivation

 

Thanks so much for this whole post - it's been really enlightening!

 

Hannah's just not food motivated, I think she wants treats when Sophie has treats but if I'm leaving the room (or the house) she doesn't touch the treat until she knows what I'm doing. She gets excited when I ask her if she wants a cookie but I think she's just feeding off of Sophie's excitement - Sophie's EXTREMELY food motivated. Hannah will NOT take treats in crowds of people or groups of dogs. I make sure to let people know that they can't give her any food when there are other dogs (other than Sophie) around as she'll sometimes grab the treat and guard it without eating it, which causes a lot of problems amongst the dogs that do want it. Not a fun situation at all. After a few weeks of school I was finally able to get her to take tiny liver bites from my hand - but still, sometimes at home she won't take food from my hand or if she does it's sooooooo gentle, usually to the point where it drops on the floor because she won't grab it firmly enough. It took me forever to get her to take anything from my hands - you'd try to give it to her and she'd just put her nose straight down against her neck and look up at you with ears forward.....adorable but not helpful at all. She eats once a day at 5:00 due to the soiling in the house - when she had breakfasts she poo'd more in the house and we sort of just stuck with it after that.

 

Here's some background on Hannah:

 

She came to me at 1.5 years old (flunked race school) in 2007. She was described as a 'happy go lucky puppy' and when I met her she ran into the house and gave everyone kisses. There were a bunch of things I just chalked up to 'new off the track greyhound' but they didn't go away. I was happy and confident with my new, adorable dog and wanted to take her out with all my buddies.

 

First thing I noticed was she wouldn't walk - the second you got her 5' out the door she'd alligator roll and try to back out of her collar. I picked up a harness and with lots of words of encouragement and patience we were able to do the block. If she'd freeze I'd count to 10 and then in a very happy voice go "Okay Hannah! Lets go!" and just start walking, this usually snapped her out of it. She was VERY fearful of dogs of all sizes - if there was a pom coming towards us we'd have to cross the street or she'd try to back out of her collar. The first greyhound walk I took her to was a complete disaster - I thought she'd do great with dogs of her kind. I took her out of the van, she planted her butt on the ground and in a furious spin tried to bite any dog/person that came near her. Once I got everyone to move away and got her calm enough, I picked her up and put her back in the car - we waited for everyone to leave and I did the walk alone. After some more work on walks, I decided to try the greyhound walk again - I muzzled her and just followed everyone way back so she wasn't scared of any dogs sneaking up behind her - we're now at the point where I can walk with other dogs as long as we're moving, the second we stop she starts snarling and air snapping.

 

She had space aggression issues - you couldn't step on her bed, hug her, sit beside her and sometimes if you tried to pet her she'd air snap/bark/growl. I'm at the point now with her that 99.9% of the time she loves being hugged by me and my DH, there are some days I can tell she won't let me though and sometimes she still gets me or DH with the snapping. Just this past week she growled/air snapped at a cable guy, our roommate and yesterday when my roommate's friend came over she practically scaled the wall trying to get away from him in fear - she full out ran into the side of the couch trying to scramble away from him. He didn't do anything - Sophie was happily greeting him, he was soft spoken and even knelt down when he saw she was scared - didn't do anything, she hid behind DH until he left.

 

She crapped on the floor for 2 years, I tried crating her and she just ended up pooing on herself. Lots of happy voices and praise are what I think broke her of the habit. I think it was some form of separation anxiety.

 

I can't really think of anything else, I know there's more but she really has come a long way. She tolerates other dogs as long as they aren't in her house and as long as we're not stationary. She's barking/growling less at other people now and she stopped pooing on the floor. She loves her walks and practically skips the whole way - when she sees a new dog now she wants to 'sneaky sniff' them (still won't let them sniff her). When I have to keep fosters at my house temporarily (I can't foster with her like this) I just gate her upstairs and the new dogs downstairs. If she gets really upset I just joyfully take her upstairs and put her in my room for a time out so she can calm down a bit.

 

I think my biggest issue with the dog behaviorist that I had was she wouldn't observe Hannah with other dogs. I would of been glad to muzzle her and just let her observe Hannah's reaction in a safe way - I'm almost 100% sure that all of Hannah's issues stem from insecurity and fear. I'm at the point that I can read her body language pretty well and remove her from most situations when I see it start to escalate. I want her to be the confident, happy and playful dog I know she is for her sake and mine.

 

I'll PM you for some recommendations, I really think she needs someone confident but not overbearing - I think a 'too strong' personality is just going to scare her, too gentle and she won't focus though....

[greysmom]

Please do PM Giselle for suggestions on competent behaviorists. I hadn't seen Hannah's story laid out like above, either. She sounds very much like my spook Cash, though with more extreme reactions. Cash doesn't get aggressive. Her response is always to run away from whatever is scaring her. She is very fast.

 

I would urge you to consider talking with your vet and/or your new behaviorist regarding some prescription help. When used correctly, they are not a crutch or a sign of failure on your or Hannah's part. She needs to have the chemistry in her brain changed, just like a person with a mental illness. Once her mind is calm and in a recepetive state, you can do behavior modification training that will actually change her behavior. They can then be tapered off so she can live a full and happy life, like you want for her.

[Guest brandi007]

I'm not against medication if I think it will help her out - it's just so hard because she's SOOOOOOO sweet most of the time. I always tell people I wish they could see her the way I do, she's such a great dog.

[Guest Swifthounds]

One of the biggest things I learned, was that I was a part of her problem. I was always worried she'd bite someone, or another dog, so I was always tense when I took her out, or when new people came into my home. I had to learn to be confident, and she would feed off my reaction to her.

 

. Absolutely.

 

There is no such thing as a dog that isn't food motivated. There are treats that are more or less enticing. There are dogs who are well fed in exchange for nothing. There are overfes dog. But there aren't dogs that aren't food motivated.

 

I also would never advise taking a fear aggressive dog to a dog park. To humans it seems like a good socialization tool, and it's easy to be mislead by body language that resembles a happy dog's behavior, but almost universally they are highly stressful for am already unconfident dog.

[Guest brandi007]

. Absolutely.

 

There is no such thing as a dog that isn't food motivated. There are treats that are more or less enticing. There are dogs who are well fed in exchange for nothing. There are overfes dog. But there aren't dogs that aren't food motivated.

 

I also would never advise taking a fear aggressive dog to a dog park. To humans it seems like a good socialization tool, and it's easy to be mislead by body language that resembles a happy dog's behavior, but almost universally they are highly stressful for am already unconfident dog.

 

She's not food motivated - it took me forever just to get her to eat her meals and even to this day she sometimes doesn't finish her dinner. She's not overweight and is in beautiful shape - as a matter of fact she's more on the lean side. When training her to go poo outside treats didn't work, it was praise and high pitched voices that finally turned her. MOST dogs are food motivated - Hannah's praise motivated, she gets more excited for a high pitched squeaky voice than cheese, a hot dog, roast beef, bologna, fish, cheese filled smokeys, cookies etc. She still responds to praise in high stress situations while completely ignoring food. Just last night I tried to give her a bed time cookie (liver cookies, her fave flavor) and she did the whole "head down, stare up" and wouldn't take it from my hand, I just ended up putting it on her paws for her to finish when she was ready.

 

Hannah's at the point that she loves the dog park - she freaks out when I ask her if she wants to go and her little tail wags the whole time. I will not take her to the dog park when it's too crowded. It's a HUGE dog park and she always has room to be completely away from other dogs if she chooses. Sometimes she even wants to hang out with them now and goes up to them to say hi. I've been working with Hannah on her issues for 5 years now and she has made great leaps and strides, would I of done a dog park 3 years ago? No. I've also learned a lot about Hannah's body language - I know what the "I look so happy but I'm not" looks like - if she's tense and not enjoying herself we just leave, if there's an overbearing and in your face dog - we leave, however on most days she's happily zipping around the park at full speed. The RIGHT dog park with the right dogs (balanced dogs who pretty much ignore her and pose no threat) has been an incredible confidence building tool for Hannah and I wouldn't take it away from her.

[greysmom]

Cash is not food motivated either. She will actually spit food out of her mouth - even high value meat treats - if she's stressed and anxious. She also wouldn't take treats for quite a while after we brought her home, and it was a struggle to get her to eat regular meals. Her taking treats has become my touchstone for how well she's doing in any particular situation.

 

My little girl has come so far! I, too, wish other people could see the happy, funny, spinning, excited, playing, smiling, NORMAL dog we have most of the time. Cash is so sweet and smart and DH and I are the only ones that ever see it.